Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Machiavelli]

You are digging yourself deeper. The presumed semen stain could point to her murderer. It could have pointed to Raffaele! If it had, I'd be a guilter.

Then you would have required test the alleged semen stain (but you are not me, or the juges who think like me).

But your statement above just confirms you are accusing Hellmann/Zanetti and Marasca/Bruno of severe inconsistency.

You are admitting that they should have ordered to test the semen stain at least, before coming to any conclusion that there was no evidence.

 

[Machiavelli]

Huh!? You are now not making any sense at all. Sorry, you're not.

Let's not talk about the poster. Let's talk about the arguments the poster is making, and what he may or may not be aware of. Are you aware of anyone in Italy, preferably on a publicly available forum, arguing as you do. The arguments you are making - are they on any Italian language forum, made by Italians?

It's an easy question. If you are unaware of any, just say so.

I have already answered. I've already said I'm unaware about Italian forums (and I never searched for one actually).

 

[Machiavelli]

It didn't matter what evidence of innocence was presented by the defense, Massei was going to convict . . .

As Steve Moore has said, "how can Massei look at himself in a mirror?"

Oh well, if Moore said so..

 

[analemma]

This is because it seems I have a different concept of justice: my concept of justice is based on truth. I may have very little interest in punishment, I tend to be forgiving and lenient when it comes to retribution. Nothing can heal the victims, damages cannot be repaired. I am much more interested in truth.
Justice, to me, is truth. And this has particular value within Italian history, in my opinion.
two common criminals, just two drugged and mentally disturbed nobodies.

"my concept of justice is based on truth"
Like the trial of Galileo: Another Italian masterpiece.
Like the Italian inquisition.
The two "nobodies" have shown themselves to be not nearly as disturbed as the Italian Judiciary, and everyone knows it.
The Italian Courts spent seven years covering their butts and stroking lunatics until push came to shove: The question finally was; Was maintaining the inbred Italian old boy system worth going to the last push? No.
The ISC knew that they would have a hell of fight to extradite knox and also were completely aware that ALL of her convictions would be thrown out by the ECHR.
I really thought that they were stupid enough to convict and that the extradition fight would be ending about the time the ECHR overturned the slander conviction and then after some time the ECHR would overturn the murder rape staging BS.
I know; I know; The proud, strutting Italian courts are not bound to the ECHR, but does anyone think that they want to answer to Uncle Sam and the rest of the world when all their corruption and collusion and frame ups and nonsense logic was shown for what it was: A vendetta to cover their incompetence.
When the ECHR was finished the Italian Justice system would look worse than the courts of the Taliban.
The Motivations are two months late because they are trying to figure out how to tell the truth about what happened without defaming the Italian magistrates.

 

[Machiavelli]

So now even you wants the semen tested? Haha

The 5th section came through for justice. Gaps in the evidence? Lots and lots. Since the evidence the prosecution did not disclose could have closed those gaps and made the case for guilt, you can be sure it was of an exonerating character.

Sorry, this kind of nonsense could have no place in a SC reasoning.
"It must be of exonerating charachter" because "the prosecution could have closed the gaps", so we can state for sure the impossibility of searching evidence. I hope you realize the idiocy of what you are stating.

 

[Grinder]

This is dishonest B$. We've all seen the Nov 2nd video of Stefanoni talking to the Rome lab while standing in front of the cottage, and Stefanoni told her lab that she had a probable semen stain that she needed testing PRONTO!

Stefanoni could have taken a swab of the 'apparent' semen stain on the pillow with no need to actually send the entire pillow case to Rome.

Are you really that stupid, or do you believe everyone else is so stupid that they would believe your illogical made-up nonsense?

The recording of Stef seems very suspicious to me. Who made it? What sort of mic would pick up the voice so clearly no matter what direction the camera was pointing?

The stain wasn't even discovered by the ICSI but by the defense expert Vinci(?) using a crimescope.

If the recording is real, they could be referring to other presumed semen.

 

[Machiavelli]

"my concept of justice is based on truth"
Like the trial of Galileo: Another Italian masterpiece.
Like the Italian inquisition.
The two "nobodies" have shown themselves to be not nearly as disturbed as the Italian Judiciary, and everyone knows it.
The Italian Courts spent seven years covering their butts and stroking lunatics until push came to shove: The question finally was; Was maintaining the inbred Italian old boy system worth going to the last push? No.
The ISC knew that they would have a hell of fight to extradite knox and also were completely aware that ALL of her convictions would be thrown out by the ECHR.
I really thought that they were stupid enough to convict and that the extradition fight would be ending about the time the ECHR overturned the slander conviction and then after some time the ECHR would overturn the murder rape staging BS.
I know; I know; The proud, strutting Italian courts are not bound to the ECHR, but does anyone think that they want to answer to Uncle Sam and the rest of the world when all their corruption and collusion and frame ups and nonsense logic was shown for what it was: A vendetta to cover their incompetence.
When the ECHR was finished the Italian Justice system would look worse than the courts of the Taliban.
The Motivations are two months late because they are trying to figure out how to tell the truth about what happened without defaming the Italian magistrates.

Do you have more racist rants of this kind?

Nothing about an Empire of Evil... a Manifest Destiny... a Land of the Braves... nothing?

btw the motivations are (by now) 3 months late, not two.

 

[Bill Williams]

I have already answered. I've already said I'm unaware about Italian forums (and I never searched for one actually).

So you yourself have never made points similar to these in an Italian forum in the Italian language? Please note, I am talking about the points in question....

 

[Machiavelli]

So you yourself have never made points similar to these in an Italian forum in the Italian language? Please note, I am talking about the points in question....

Bill, I'm not an idiot. This is talking about the poster. If you want to discuss points, especially those you say I have made in this page, you can discuss them here.

 

[analemma]

Do you have more racist rants of this kind?

Why is it "racist" to describe the Italian Judiciary and how they think and operate?
This case has many of the characteristics of both the Galileo case and the inquisitions, including the Italian Judicial custom of guilt before trial, not allowing the accused to question their accusers, building judicial truths out of nothing, withholding evidence, falsifying evidence, lying about evidence, lying about the accused, interrogations without lawyers; all the favorites.
You are just name calling because you know the track you are on was always wrong and it has even been realized by the ISC and you do not have the nerve to admit it.
BTW, you cannot even count: The motivations are 39 days late, not 3 months, although I would not be surprised if months in your world are 13 days long.

 

[Bill Williams]

Then you would have required test the alleged semen stain (but you are not me, or the juges who think like me).

But your statement above just confirms you are accusing Hellmann/Zanetti and Marasca/Bruno of severe inconsistency.

You are admitting that they should have ordered to test the semen stain at least, before coming to any conclusion that there was no evidence.

This is your failure to consider things osmotically.

What seems consistent to me is that if the prosecution did not want it tested, if the prosecution and/or police thought it irrelevant, why would an **acquitting court** want it tested? They way you phrase the question makes it seem like the acquitting courts **should** see the stain as interesting when the cops didn't?

It's only when entities like the defence actually request its testing, a request which is refused, that any of this is relevant.

Why would anything the acquitting courts do be comparible to what the convicting courts also didn't do.

At least look at this osmotically. Or do you cherry pick that concept too?

 

[zotz]

How many stupid lies.

There are no excuses - there were no excuses - because there was no deed.

Mignini didn't seek any "excuse": this is what I call a tedentious lie. Mignini pointed out that it is not the policy of the police detectives to record informants interrogations, this for obvious economical reasons. It is obvious that cost of transcriptions would be potentially huge (to anyone who understands a few principles about the system, of course).
But it is not a reason that stands alone: there is actually no point in recording informants statements, as long as those are not usable as evidence, and the code itself discourages the practice of documenting police activities.
On the other hand, police obviously don't like their activities to be recorded in general.

I point out a curious expression of yours: "they think the defense is so stupid that they would believe this stuff".
A very curious expression, it seems written on the part of someone who thinks that "what the defence believes" is a topic with some kind of relevance. You talk like someone who is identifying the defence with something like an impartial judge; that their honets "belief" is a concept with some kind of real place in reality.
It isn't so. The defence have a right to lie.
It doesn't exist a concept like "what the defence believe".

Anyway, as for the interrogations, like for any other trial issue, it's not a bad idea to start any consideration based on what the defence position in the trial actually was.
The defences did not request the recording of any interrogation. They did not request to admit the recording of those interrogations and astatements, and they did not request to admit any transcript of those statements. They never, never asked the judge to search for interrogation recordings and never meant such recordings or interrogation transcripts to be heared or saw by the courts.
So in fact the defence line was exactly the contrary of what the FOAs go ranting about. They did not want any interogation recording to enter the trial, they did not want anything from those interrogations to even become known to the court.

This, I guess, is a cultural difference. In the US the defense doesn't have to request evidence possessed by the prosecution because it is their right to have it, request or no request. And how could the defense request the recordings if the prosecution is saying that they don't exist and then claim that the defense really didn't want to hear them because they failed to make the request.

Mach, are you mocking me? This is pure sophism.

So, in your system the defense naturally lies and the prosecution and police naturally suppress evidence. So, who is left to care about the truth if everyone is lying or concealing evidence? If transcribing an interrogation is too expensive then why not just make the recording and if it turns out to be important you can transcribe it later? Is common sense a lost art in Perugia?
There are some things that are very admirable in the Italian system but this suppression of evidence is something that I think most Europeans would not agree with.

It is unfair and it obstructs the course of justice.

 

[Desert Fox]

This, I guess, is a cultural difference. In the US the defense doesn't have to request evidence possessed by the prosecution because it is their right to have it, request or no request. And how could the defense request the recordings if the prosecution is saying that they don't exist and then claim that the defense really didn't want to hear them because they failed to make the request.

Mach, are you mocking me? This is pure sophism.

So, in your system the defense naturally lies and the prosecution and police naturally suppress evidence. So, who is left to care about the truth if everyone is lying or concealing evidence? If transcribing an interrogation is too expensive then why not just make the recording and if it turns out to be important you can transcribe it later? Is common sense a lost art in Perugia?
There are some things that are very admirable in the Italian system but this suppression of evidence is something that I think most Europeans would not agree with.

It is unfair and it obstructs the course of justice.

It is suppose to work that way but often does not.

 

[Ken Dine]

The recording of Stef seems very suspicious to me. Who made it? What sort of mic would pick up the voice so clearly no matter what direction the camera was pointing?

The stain wasn't even discovered by the ICSI but by the defense expert Vinci(?) using a crimescope.

If the recording is real, they could be referring to other presumed semen.

I have no idea who made the Nov 3rd recording of Stefanoni discussing the semen stain with Rome (which has been posted here multiple times already), but the recording of Stefanoni sounds clear enough to me:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlXKyMh48KQ&app=desktop

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill, I'm not an idiot. This is talking about the poster. If you want to discuss points, especially those you say I have made in this page, you can discuss them here.

I cannot comment on your first point, except to say that I've never thought of you, the poster, as one.

It is germane to this thread the conspiracy items you are posting about. You say you are unaware of anyone in Italy, in the italian language, making these same points.

Since you are entirely capable, it is fair to assume that there in fact IS no outcry in Italy, made in the italian language. You'd know this more than me, and I certainly cannot find any support for your opinions, except in English at the usual outlets we all know about.

It seems it is relevant to then discuss why you conspiracies have no traction in Italy.

I'd think you'd want to point to it. Fine with me if you're the only person in the universe who pushes the **content** of your posts. You're allowed an opinion.

 

[Machiavelli]

Why is it "racist" to describe the Italian Judiciary and how they think and operate?
This case has many of the characteristics of both the Galileo case and the inquisitions, including the Italian Judicial custom of guilt before trial, not allowing the accused to question their accusers, building judicial truths out of nothing, withholding evidence, falsifying evidence, lying about evidence, lying about the accused, interrogations without lawyers; all the favorites.
You are just name calling because you know the track you are on was always wrong and it has even been realized by the ISC and you do not have the nerve to admit it.
BTW, you cannot even count: The motivations are 39 days late, not 3 months, although I would not be surprised if months in your world are 13 days long.

You can call it xenophobic if you like.

Because it's a prejudicial delusional rant. Everything is false and raving but also profoundly ignorant, just as your latest "count" of days:
Art. 617 CPP says motivations from Cassazione are to be released within 30 days. But I guess you are even incapable of reading it.

 

[Grinder]

I have no idea who made the Nov 3rd recording of Stefanoni discussing the semen stain with Rome (which has been posted here multiple times already), but the recording of Stefanoni sounds clear enough to me:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlXKyMh48KQ&app=desktop

I watched it and my point was that it was too clear. There is a ICSI videographer
and practically we only hear Stef on a phone call. No one else talking. She is only on screen for a couple of seconds. It was unloaded by Teddy of IIP. So what how many times it has been posted?

Anyway it is most likely, if a genuine recording, talking about something besides the "semen" stain as it refers to fluids.

 

[Machiavelli]

I cannot comment on your first point, except to say that I've never thought of you, the poster, as one.

It is germane to this thread the conspiracy items you are posting about. You say you are unaware of anyone in Italy, in the italian language, making these same points.

Since you are entirely capable, it is fair to assume that there in fact IS no outcry in Italy, made in the italian language. You'd know this more than me, and I certainly cannot find any support for your opinions, except in English at the usual outlets we all know about.

It seems it is relevant to then discuss why you conspiracies have no traction in Italy.

I'd think you'd want to point to it. Fine with me if you're the only person in the universe who pushes the **content** of your posts. You're allowed an opinion.

You are coming back again and again attempting to make the same point: you are trying to "count" possible "silent" people as if they were people in agreement with your ideas. This obsession of yours is returning again and again.
There is something very sneaky and crooked in your approach, it seems to me a very strange way of thinking. You do not seem to "weigh" the lack of support and lack of talk in favour of Amanda Knox as if it was indicating a lack of "traction" of the pro-Knox views. You avoid to talk about a topic directly and instead try to always re-bounce on what some other person said about this or that. Not about what something "is", but instead about "who argues this".
And I am very perplexed also by your concept of "traction", that you mention. I am afraid I don't udnerstand it. I don't know what would "traction" mean by your criteria, I don't know what parties or sides you imagine.
If you consider magistrates for example, Mignini is certainly a winner: his position on the Narducci case has been acknowledged in several courts, he is regarded as the right guy. Everything is going his way in the Florentine area. The MoF case has even been re-opened and the masterminds track (Calamandrei, Reinecke) is investigated again. Giuttari has won many court cases too, now he is vindicated also for his career. This one is the "good side" for the public.
Amanda Knox is a convicted liar, and she is under trial again for calunnia. Sollecito is under trial for defamation.
There were two Porta a Porta shows that had a setting meant to be favourable to Sollecito, but they were guilters for what regard Knox. Bruno Vespa hosted Sollecito in a favourable setting, but he appeared obviously as a person believeing guilt himself. Those shows also conveyed explicit messages that referred to politics, linking the Meredith case with the case of the Italian Marines detained in India.
Marco Travaglio, the only journalist who made a comment on the case, but also the greatest journalist expert of judicial matters, noted that the two were certainly not innocent. Other smaller articles have appeared on niche reviews with a much more conspirationist take.
The CSM intends to vote new rules to prevent magistrates that come from political experiences, of the Marasca type, from coming back into the judiciary and take inportant posts. The president of CSM already launched an alarm in 2014 about "political magistrates", pointing out that "some administrations" put magistrates among their ministers in order to reassure citizens, so that some magistrates would serve on political posts to legitimize "corrupt administrations", and the rules allowed to exploit their political career subsequently to advance their career in the judiciary. So the "Marasca alarm" is nothing that new. Political mess exists, as well as movements within the judiciary, and there are complex fights going on.
But overall, the fact is that about the Kercher case, there is nothing to talk about: there is no Cassazione sentence. Nodody knows what's written there. There have been more than 120 days of darkness. It could be a Hellmann style writing, or it could be a Bebewi kind of sentence. It won't be able to overturn the other definitive findings: Guede did not hold the murder weaon, Knox is a malicious liar, and Chieffi's points.
And yet, this is only a criminal case. There is no factual finding of truth to be expected there. There is a 530.2 mention, therefore it's no judicial truth.

 

[Machiavelli]

I watched it and my point was that it was too clear. There is a ICSI videographer
and practically we only hear Stef on a phone call. No one else talking. She is only on screen for a couple of seconds. It was unloaded by Teddy of IIP. So what how many times it has been posted?

Anyway it is most likely, if a genuine recording, talking about something besides the "semen" stain as it refers to fluids.

Stefanoni's words contain no evidence whatsoever. It's impossible from her words to infer anything about what she found.
She does not request Alessandro to "test" things that she mentions. She only mentions blood and presumed semen, is not even clear if she is talking about findings, items, fluid samples, or about templates and tags.
In other words all this is a gas bubble where the biased pro-Knox conspirationists will try to make up everything they like.

 

[RWVBWL]

The recording of Stef seems very suspicious to me. Who made it? What sort of mic would pick up the voice so clearly no matter what direction the camera was pointing?

The stain wasn't even discovered by the ICSI but by the defense expert Vinci(?) using a crimescope.

If the recording is real, they could be referring to other presumed semen.

Hi Grinder,
here's a link to part 2 of the Nov. 3rd CrimeScene video.
https://mega.co.nz/#!fwo3UbDS!YpT6M0rQJiaKKLy6HjZ8XrfB69YrKpgFCIVGaHckejw

Download and watch the original,
it's at 5 minutes in, or 18:14:08 or so...

I don't speak Italian,
but I just watched this part that you question,
Dr. Stefanoni is on the phone with her assistant Alessa,
we now know talking about the presumed seminal fluid
and the need to test it.

It is loud and clear,
the Italians recorded it themselves.

The YouTube video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YlXKyMh48KQ&app=desktop
that we've seen has some scenes from the downstairs walk-around deleted,
but the audio is still Dr. Stefanoni.

Do a comparison of the 2 vidz if you want,
I just did. Maybe Machiavelli will too,
heck I'd betcha that he'd luv to point out something that Teddy overlooked
so as to help us better understand this case we discuss.

I guessin' that it might be loud because of the design layout of downstairs building walls, heck I can almost her Meredith screaming for help from down there, while outside, if accosted by 2 dudes, as maybe the CCTV folks possibly did...


You do know that some or all of the Crime Scene videos were played in The Massei Court
with the volume turned off,
right?

I found this gem of info while reading around looking for something else last year,
whoa!

Questions about the professionalism of forensic officers in the case have emerged after they were heard joking on a crime scene video about taking cocaine to stay awake.

The tape was shown to the court during the appeal and at the original trial but with no audio – until it was played on Italian TV.
One of the men is heard to say: 'I could really do with some cocaine to give me a kick.'


Gosh,
it was only after someone decided to watch
and apparently listen to it that this information came forward.
On Italian TV!

* * *

While no one of us who debates can say for sure if Dr. Patrizia Stefanoni is telling her assistant to test someone else's seminal fluid, err presumed seminal fluid, well I think it would suck if the Dr. did not test the stain found in Miss Kercher's rape + murder, but instead tested some other random, seminal fluid stain.

Miss Kercher's rape was not important enough,
but someone else's was?

Or was the stain not tested because of budget issues, err, because no court ordered it, err, because she did not have the pillow case in possession, err, because they did not swab the pillow case, err, because they never found the 2nd presumed seminal fluid stain that Rudy stepped in and then, moving his shoe, stepped down + left a fresh shoe ring imprint next to Miss Kercher, dating it from that night...