Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

In an earlier post I was critical of Machiavelli and what I perceive as a lack of intellectual honesty. While I do believe there may have been a time that one could argue for guilt with a degree of integrity, I think that time has long since past. Continuing to argue for guilt requires a a stubborn willingness to ignore the facts a day and disregard logic and the truth.

Machiavelli although seems mildly interested in vilifying Amanda, he seems even more interested in defending a corrupt system. How else would you explain defending the methods of Mignini and Stefanoni?

 

[Strozzi]

In an earlier post I was critical of Machiavelli and what I perceive as a lack of intellectual honesty. While I do believe there may have been a time that one could argue for guilt with a degree of integrity, I think that time has long since past. Continuing to argue for guilt requires a a stubborn willingness to ignore the facts a day and disregard logic and the truth.

Machiavelli although seems mildly interested in vilifying Amanda, he seems even more interested in defending a corrupt system. How else would you explain defending the methods of Mignini and Stefanoni?[/QUOTE]

There may be a personal connection to someone involved and a desire to make the prosecution's case appear to have been reasonable.

What really surprises me is the virulent conclusion that the Hellman court and C & V are corrupt.

Machiavelli, I appreciate your extensive and detailed comments throughout this case.

 

[RWVBWL]

Was The Scream later than Rudy thought?

Yes, I think so too. The timing is really interesting as well. The clock appears to read 9:44pm (so is that really 9:55pm, because the clocks were slow?).

If the black man ran into the couple on the steps around 10:30, and if that were Rudy, then that would allow Rudy to have gone downstairs as well after the murder to think things over, clean-up, change clothes, whatever. Turn on the light switch to leave the human DNA and blood on it. (Except the phone calls made at Lana's around 10:15 to Meredith's bank, so maybe the couple on the steps had their time slightly off as well).

There's definitely some time shifting and fuzz to this theory, but its not a bad fit, IUAM.

John Douglas, in his chapter in the book, Rudy Guede, The Forgotten Killer, I believe said he placed the time of Meredith's death at 10pm. That time of death caught a lot of flack from these boards when it came up. But if these images were actually people reacting to Meredith's screaming for her life, then Douglas's TOD estimate was right on the money. And, Rudy's estimate of 9:20 was a bit off the mark. Unless, Rudy tried to negotiate with Meredith for 25 minutes or so, before the encounter escalated to a mortal assault.

The timing on these pictures are great Randy. Is this from the Oggi article? Is there a link to the source.

Great find here.

Hi Carbonjam2,
I remember the pix 1st being brought up by Oggi, but re-found them here:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/timeline-november-1/


Regarding the timeline, and your own posts with great info,
I wrote a post back in 2013 that explores how I believe that Rudy Guede
was off on his time estimates, esh, he wasn't wearing a watch.

I too think that Meredith Kercher screamed later,
closer to the time frame as seen on the CCTV vid grabs...


Have a read below,
the info is from Rudy Guede's own words
before PM Mignini and The Lawyers got their hands on "poor Rudy".

* * *
What's up everyone!
The other day I mentioned that I believe that Rudy Guede's awareness of time was off and hence, his recollection of the time of Meredith's scream was too early, as he was off by about 20 minutes or so.

But I forgot to quote + link an important detail that I'd just recently read::
Rudy says that he came back around 8:30 to hook-up with Meredith, she wasn't there yet, but arrived 8 minutes later, which we know was right around 9:00pm.

I'll try to explain better by using Guede's own words from a couple of different sources, ok?

Statement to German authorities, Koblenz, Nov. 21, 2007.
On October 31, 2007, I was out with my Spanish friends. On that occasion we met Meredith. I flirted with her. We made a date for November 1 at her house at 8:30 p.m. At 19.30 (7:30) or 19.45 (7:45), I left my flat. I can’t specify the precise hour, because I don’t wear a watch. I soon found my friend Alex, then I went to Meredith’s house, but she wasn’t there. I looked for the two Italians with whom I play basketball, but they weren’t home.

Then I went into the center and bought a kebab and returned to Meredith’s. I bought the kebab at the place near “La Tana Dell’Orso.” When I returned, at first nobody was there. After about eight minutes, Meredith arrived and opened the door for me and we entered. First we talked a little, and because we had flirted the night before, we kissed. We did not have sex. I did not rape Meredith. To prove this, I am willing to undergo all the necessary medical tests. Then I went into the bathroom that is next to Amanda’s room, Meredith instead to her room close to that.

That (day) I was happy. For this, I left home early, I
think around 7:30 in the evening. I first went to Alex’s
house, but he didn’t immediately open (the door). I
think about 5 minutes went by. I waited a bit because I
saw the light of his room on, and I waited. In fact, he
was washing himself. It had been a while since I’d
seen him. In fact, he went for awhile to his home in
Greece. I talked with him a little at his place, and then I
left, saying that we’d see each other later. This was
our appointment. I said to Alex that I was going to eat
and I’d return later, then seeing that it was still early…

Before my meeting with Meredith, I went to the town
center. I walked around, to see where to eat. Then I
decided to eat at the Kebap, so I went toward the one
that’s next to “La Tana dell’Orso.” I met Philip there, an
Austrian friend who was speaking with a girl and he
directed me to the Kebap and I ordered something to
eat. I waited a bit because in front of me there were
two girls who were ordering. Then I ate and went
towards Philip, who was still talking. With Philip I
talked at length, then we agreed to meet later at Alex’s
place. I told Philip I had to go meet someone, and he
jokingly asked me if it was a guy or a girl. I pointed out
it was a girl, because he was referring to an awful onenight
stand that happened to me a few days before,
regarding a “guy.”

Then I headed for Meredith’s house. With all the
running around I did, I think it would have been around
8:30, approximately. Because we were supposed to
see each other at that time, even though I didn’t have a
watch I tried to arrive on time, because I usually arrive
late. As I arrived in front of the house, I noticed a white
car with headlights on, and a Drug-Dealer I often saw
on Garibaldi Avenue, but I didn’t make much of this,
and I went into the yard. I knocked on the door, but no
one answered. I went downstairs to the guys’ place,
but no one was there either. So then, I waited in the
yard.

Some time later, here's Meredith, she was smiling, and
asked me how long I’d been waiting, and I told her for
about one minute. She smiled, then took the keys out
of her purse, opened the door, and we entered. There
wasn't anyone in the house because it was dark
everywhere, in the kitchen, in the living room, then she
yelled "Anybody here," to let people know she was
back, but there was no answer from the other rooms.
Even though I’d bought some drinks with the kebab, I
needed to drink some more because it was very spicy,
and I asked her if I could drink something. She told me
to help myself as if I was at my place. I opened the
fridge and drank some apricot juice and water too.
Since she wasn't paying attention, I drank out of the
bottle because I didn't know where the glasses were,
and then I sat down.

RG: I was in the bathroom, so for me, well, I didn't worry about it, because anyway in the end we were going to be seeing each other and... I was in the bathroom, in the bathroom maybe five minutes. So, I really had to take this ****, but then I heard a scream, but let me tell you, a really loud scream, so loud that according to me, if anyone was passing by, nearby, they would have heard this scream, because she screamed so loud...and then, then, I got a bit worried and I got out of the bathroom right away, without even putting my pants back on, they were practically falling down, I was wearing just my underwear and my pants were falling around my...
GB: But if I understand, I mean like where was this...I mean, what time do you think this happened, I don't know...
RG: Around nine, nine twenty or so, because in the meantime we had gotten to talking and all.
GB: I see.
RG: I think nine‐twenty, nine‐thirty, around then, and then, when I heard the scream, let me tell you she screamed so loud that you could hear it even in the street, Giacomo, she screamed really loud. When I came out, it was in semi‐darkness, I came out and I saw him.

Guede's sayin' that when he got there, no one was home, Mez arrived about 8 minutes later.

He mistakenly thought it was 8:30 when he got there, but it woulda been 8:52 or a little closer to 9:00pm, as this was when Meredith arrived home.

Meredith's loud scream(s) might then be about 22 to 30 minutes later then he estimated when conversing on the Skype call to Giacomo Benedetti, hence I believe that The Scream occurred later than 9:20 or 9:30,
nearer to 9:40 or 9:50pm. Might it even be what some of the folks on The CCTV were hearing?

Does any of this make sense to you?
RW


Gotta run,
I'm watching Finals Day Live from The US Open of Surfing right now:
http://www.worldsurfleague.com/events/2015/mqs/1256/mens-vans-us-open-of-surfing/live

 

[Ken Dine]

A kind lurker to this forum has found what neither I nor Machiavelli could - an Italian language forum covering the Monster of Florence and L'omicidio di Meredith Kercher cases. From 2009 until the present.

Some actual thoughtful and uniquely Italian conversation - far, far more muted than on the English sites. So far, no sign of the conspiracy as Machiavelli sees it. Well, at least not so finely spelled out!

Hoots!

http://mostrodifirenze.forumup.it/about102-435.html

I spent the morning reading their postings starting on March 27th (some posted below)

Generally, where Italian posters still felt Amanda was guilty, it was because she had accused an innocent man (Lumumba). No one was concerned with Amanda's interrogation, nor were they aware that the police had found an African man's hairs in Meredith's bedroom, so they couldn't begin to grok that the police had pressured Amanda into fingering Lumumba, an African man.

The Italians were generally disappointed with their legal system that had found Amanda guilty, then innocent, then guilty, then innocent again.

Even so, given the same facts, many Italians felt that Amanda would have been executed under the American justice system, so their system was still better (on the whole).

As translated by my Chrome browser:

---

animejap

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 7:39 pm

Snait wrote:

So why Amanda had accused an innocent man, who has also done a few days in jail?

this according to the public opinion and the overwhelming evidence against Amanda, none has probative value in if, The fact of accusing a person [LUMUMBA], however regrettable, does not prove that Amanda was at the crime scene that she had committed the crime.

---

Gastone

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 7:45 pm
The crime scene has spoken, animejap. It featured tracks, the data, which were read by the Scientific Police and investigators, evaluating them together with the results of the investigations of the Judicial Police, they felt able to demonstrate the presence of the three defendants to the scene of fact upon fact. They were of this opinion also Gup and two courts of merit. The ruling was expected the 17 palm.

---

animejap

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 8:16 pm

Gaston wrote:
The crime scene has spoken, animejap. It featured tracks, the data, which were read by the Scientific Police and investigators, evaluating them together with the results of the investigations of the Judicial Police, they felt able to demonstrate the presence of the three defendants to the scene of fact upon fact. They were of this opinion also Gup and two courts of merit. The ruling was expected the 17 palm.

the scene of the crime are found only traces of guede and none of Amanda and raffaele.questo and 'a given incontrovertible that the prosecution explained by an alleged Of room cleaning took place at the hands of the two, able, not with what is well known method systematically erase all their tracks and leave intact those Rudy.riguardo Della scientific work, and if this 'working method used then we are in the field Of more' total incomptenza and someone should change lavoro.

un bra recovered after 45 days in a place other than that of the crime and is said to be contaminated several DNA.

un kitchen knife with DNA of Amanda, but then It turns without DNA Meredith.naturalmente without blood, 'cause we are told with varachina clean, but' DNA Amanda is the blood …

no motive ridiculous changed more 'times during construction and in obvious contraddizione.delitto not premeditated, done with a knife but' is brought from home to home Meredith reminder.

---

Gastone

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 8:32 pm

I'm sorry for you but were performed tests on contamination, giving a negative result. The recalled Dr. Mignini few months ago during a public event devoted to this case and organized at the University Partenope of my city, Naples. At the trial of Appeals of Perugia Perugia experts they spoke of contamination (and put pen to paper in their report) without proving it, without asking the consultants if Pm were made tests for contamination and consequently without obtaining the documentation counselors pm on testing for contamination.

So much so that at the University of Naples Partenope Dr. Mignini recalled these facts (later approved as censorship of the Prosecutor General of the Court of Appeal by the Court of Cassation for reference, in fact). And he said something that I shared:

"Who calls the contamination should try it." One can not conclude that there has been only because it states that there has been. Apart from the fact, I repeat, however, that these tests were performed and gave a negative result. Dr. Stefanoni (who is a talented forensic biologist, as pointed out by Dr. Mignini in Naples) was indeed so careful to preserve the crime scene when the Coroner would approach the body of Meredith Kercher to monitor temperature with a thermometer she invited him to the utmost prudence and caution (also Dr. Mignini at that) because it was extremely careful to avoid contamination (episode also told by the investigating magistrate in Naples a few months ago).

---

animejap

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 9:06 pm

Contamination experts have disquisito but not 'deny that they were no longer' DNA.a this point someone should explain these DNA.di who they are and how they got li.l'unica track of reminders in the house remains the famous mark later revealed to be Rudy.

The fact remains then most 'important and that alone is enough to exonerate the two.

How They did clean up all their tracks from the scene of the crime, leaving intact those of Rudy? To date there 'no objective data that puts Amanda On the site there and prompt delitto.

non 'no motive and there' no weapons of delitto.l 'unique to them and' rudy

---

animejap

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 9:34 pm

Moreover knife on DNA evidence and 'considered unreliable, the DNA of Meredith and before this' then disappeared, the blood there' never was.

moreover, there is explained why 'in a manslaughter Amanda They both went to the home of Meredith with knife sollecito.e 'stats made ​​the assumption that Amanda kept him in the bag as a defense when he went out on the street, and then used casually in delitto.resta to explain why' coming home reminder of having taken the aforementioned knife to its place in the kitchen where it could be easily found.

rests to explain why 'Amanda decides to kill his partner's house in cahoots with someone who she does not know and who knows with her ​​boyfriend for [only] six days.

all the reconstruction made ​​by the prosecutor and 'unreliable and illogical, besides 'devoid of evidence, changed more' times in time in order to try to make ends meet.

Amanda and Raffaele course, two students in their twenties, the new genes of the crime, they also staged the burglary Della finestra.si, excludes priori hypothesis most 'simple burglary he did Rudy affected and Protagonists of other burglaries.

if not then Rudy 'entered the apartment to steal, and' was brought in by someone and he is allowed to engage in a murder by persons who even knows.

---

Mercutio

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:10 pm

Gaston wrote:

I'm sorry for you but were performed tests on contamination, giving a negative result. The recalled Dr. Mignini few months ago during a public event devoted to this case and organized at the University Partenope of my city, Naples. At the trial of Appeals of Perugia Perugia experts they spoke of contamination (and put pen to paper in their report) without proving it, without asking the consultants if Pm were made tests for contamination and consequently without obtaining the documentation counselors pm on testing for contamination. So much so that at the University of Naples Partenope Dr. Mignini recalled these facts (later approved as censorship of the Prosecutor General of the Court of Appeal by the Court of Cassation for reference, in fact). And he said something that I shared: "Who calls the contamination should try it." One can not conclude that there has been only because it states that there has been. Apart from the fact, I repeat, however, that these tests were performed and gave a negative result. Dr. Stefanoni (who is a talented forensic biologist, as pointed out by Dr. Mignini in Naples) was indeed so careful to preserve the crime scene when the Coroner would approach the body of Meredith Kercher to monitor temperature with a thermometer she invited him to the utmost prudence and caution (also Dr. Mignini at that) because it was extremely careful to avoid contamination (episode also told by the investigating magistrate in Naples a few months ago).

The Stefanoni has forgotten, in her zeal, a small detail. I know you do not like the medical examiners, but it so happens that a biologist can not legally certify the death of the victim. We are facing a clear violation of procedure (non-criminal: forensic).

The coroner had access for the first corpse, confirming death and perform the tests specified, including the examination or rectal thermometer, in this case there being suspicion of violence, blood). The absence of this examination - and if it is about the Stefanoni, better change job - led incalculable consequences on the rest of the process. And they have, as well. Contamination that could lead to the coroner?

I would say many bad words. It must be said that the blame is also the doctor on duty, who let himself be "intimidated" and did not even surveys on rape, which led to the exhumation of the corpse. No, Valmont, the fault is not only the judges who misjudged. It 'also the specialists who worked very badly. As they say the computer: Garbage in, garbage out.

---

Valmont

Posted: Fri, March 27, 2015 10:22 pm

Gaston wrote:
I'm sorry for you but were performed tests on contamination, giving a negative result.
...
...
So much so that at the University of Naples Partenope Dr. Mignini recalled these facts (later approved as censorship of the Prosecutor General of the Court of Appeal by the Court of Cassation for reference, in fact). And he said something that I shared: "Who calls the contamination should try it." One can not conclude that there has been only because it states that there has been.

With due respect to Dr. Mignini and for you, it does not. This will subvert a couple of legal principles.
Certainly not enough to say "no contamination", but there is not even an obligation to try it (and that is impossible more often than not).

Just instead show that death in the path-finding-examination-extraction-amplification-typing-reading-so something did not go as prescribed by the best scientific literature. This means two things:

1. The prosecutor is obliged (Cassation, Criminal Code, Criminal Procedure Code, what you want to prove it), is obliged to present evidence with the chain of evidence intact. If it fails to do so he will not have fulfilled its burden of proof.Clearly, if something was not done with all feelings, so that may have contaminated the track, the chain of evidence was broken, and the judge has to perform in the absence of other evidence.

2. The mere possibility, in light of science (that is, not because it says the accused), that something has gone wrong is clearly sufficient to create reasonable doubt with what follows. I understand that questiini on the burden of proof can be boring but are not ostiche: assorbiamole once and for all, apply to Sollecito, for Bossetti, for all.

The defense must never prove anything, it is the prosecutor who must prove. Defense just create reasonable doubt. Reasonable, though.

http://mostrodifirenze.forumup.it/about102-0-asc-4185-mostrodifirenze.html

 

[carbonjam72]

Hi Carbonjam2,
I remember the pix 1st being brought up by Oggi, but re-found them here:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/timeline-november-1/


Regarding the timeline, and your own posts with great info,
I wrote a post back in 2013 that explores how I believe that Rudy Guede
was off on his time estimates, esh, he wasn't wearing a watch.

I too think that Meredith Kercher screamed later,
closer to the time frame as seen on the CCTV vid grabs...


Have a read below,
the info is from Rudy Guede's own words
before PM Mignini and The Lawyers got their hands on "poor Rudy".

* * *
What's up everyone!
The other day I mentioned that I believe that Rudy Guede's awareness of time was off and hence, his recollection of the time of Meredith's scream was too early, as he was off by about 20 minutes or so.

But I forgot to quote + link an important detail that I'd just recently read::
Rudy says that he came back around 8:30 to hook-up with Meredith, she wasn't there yet, but arrived 8 minutes later, which we know was right around 9:00pm.

I'll try to explain better by using Guede's own words from a couple of different sources, ok?










Guede's sayin' that when he got there, no one was home, Mez arrived about 8 minutes later.

He mistakenly thought it was 8:30 when he got there, but it woulda been 8:52 or a little closer to 9:00pm, as this was when Meredith arrived home.

Meredith's loud scream(s) might then be about 22 to 30 minutes later then he estimated when conversing on the Skype call to Giacomo Benedetti, hence I believe that The Scream occurred later than 9:20 or 9:30,
nearer to 9:40 or 9:50pm. Might it even be what some of the folks on The CCTV were hearing?

Does any of this make sense to you?
RW


Gotta run,
I'm watching Finals Day Live from The US Open of Surfing right now:
http://www.worldsurfleague.com/events/2015/mqs/1256/mens-vans-us-open-of-surfing/live

This is great Randy, and news to me. I didn't realize Rudy had been off on his estimate of when he got home.

I think its really hard to plant a flag and say one fact or another is certain, but we can say that Rudy's being off by 22-30 minutes, is exactly consistent with the garage people looking in the exact direction of the cottage.

We also know that at this time, Filomena's window would already be broken, and make it easier to hear a scream, if there was a scream.

The really exciting part about this theory, is that ALL these people are probably around, and could be spoken to. It would be very interesting if any of them had offered to come forward, or did come forward to talk to the police, and the police deliberately with held that info from the defense?
Also, these people aren't tramps, lunatics, and sleaze bags like Quintavale. They look like completely reliable witnesses. I don't know if everyone is so scared of the police in Italy that they all know to stay away from them no matter what, but its hard to believe that these people heard a scream on the night of an infamous murder, and none of them tries to come forward to provide information.

So did they come forward? Did the cops hide these witnesses from the defense? Has anyone tried to track these people down?

I think this CCTV video of these people looking is the real deal. I think they heard Meredith's last desperate screams.

Great job of matching it up against Rudy's statements, journals & skype call.

Maholo, or something like that...

 

[Ken Dine]

The time of death is an issue of contention, especially since Mignini delayed the coroner from taking a reading of body temperature.

However, FBI expert John Douglas wrote in his chapter of the book, Rudy Guede The Forgotten Killer, that time of death was about 10pm.

Nevertheless, I doubt if Meredith & Guede were cooped up in the cottage together very long before something very bad happened. I suspect that Meredith was attacked within moments of walking in the door, and that the attack was over quickly, likely in a minute or two.

Many here have argued for an earlier TOD based on analysis of stomach contents and lack of digestion, but this is still a pretty good, i.e. narrow time frame window, of 9-10pm.

These photos being associated with the actual murder seems to fit pretty well with the available time line.

I don't feel the video fits at all since they were taken over an 8 minute time span, and I feel that Meredith was already dead before the 1st in the series of photos.

Given the construction of the cottage (brick walls, small windows and tile roof), and that these people were 100 feet away from the cottage, and that Meredith's bedroom window pointed in the opposite direction away from where they were walking, even if Meredith did manage to scream, those people likely wouldn't have heard it, and they certainly wouldn't have heard an 8 minute scream.

These are several actual witnesses at the scene and approximate time of the crime, who appear to have heard something, coming from the exact direction of the cottage.

Instead of just assuming an 8 minute scream is "unlikely", and therefore didn't happen, may I suggest you allow the available evidence to guide your hypothesis building, not the other way around.

Are you asking me to believe that Meredith screamed for 8 minutes?

I would say its pretty clear to me that Rudy also went downstairs after the murder. And we know that phone calls on meredith's phone to her bank were made at what, 10:14 from Lara's garden? (Was there even a 10 pm call from Meredith's phone?).

Seems premature to me to state what these people heard or didn't hear without actually talking to them and asking, and see what they say.

Anyway, Rudy said the death, or assault occurred about 9:20 or 9:25pm? Something like that? Seems like a pretty consistent consolidated narrative from several different sources.

Ken, no disrespect, but I don't see you having any reason to discard Randy's hypothesis here out of the gate. You may not agree, but you've provided zero
that contradicts, at least that I can see.

The fact is, the police never talked to any of those people, so wondering why 8 years later what caused them to turn around is an exercise in futility.

Here are my reasons for discarding that video as probative:

1 – the construction of the cottage would have dampened any screams.

2 - seriously, you simply cannot contend that all three groups captured over an 8 minute span all heard a scream, so even if one of those 3 groups had legitimately heard something, which group?

What did the other two groups hear to make them turn around?

3 - there's no proof that Meredith even managed to scream.

OJ Simpson used a knife to kill his ex-wife and her adult male friend (Ron) on the steps of her condo (i.e., out in the open), with many neighbors within earshot (condos are necessarily cramped living spaces), and not one of Nicole's neighbors heard a thing, no yelling, screaming or shouting at all.

You can discuss Guede's actions upstairs, and downstairs, and his trek to the garden to chuck the phones, but that 8 minute video of people in the parking garage adds zero light to any of this.

The police do have the video from that CCTV cam showing Guede leaving the cottage that night, and that would be likely be exculpatory for Amanda & Raffaele, so they'll never release it.

 

[Ken Dine]

I don't know where RW got these and I agree with your analysis but what I wonder most is where are the other video captures from around town. Obviously the PLE were sophisticated enough to know there was such a thing as CCTV in commercial settings, so why not gather them from all around?

I read that the police did seize and review many CCTV security cam footage between the cottage and Raffaele's apartment.

When the defense had asked for copies of all that footage, the police told them they had found nothing of interest, so they chucked it (and thus had nothing to share).

Of course, CCTV footage NOT showing Amanda & Raffaele out and about that night may not interest the cops, but it certainly would be exculpatory evidence for the defense to use.

Since Raffaele's apartment was close to Guede's apartment, I'm guessing some of that tossed security cam footage had captured Guede out and about that night?

Dan O. used to post pictures of public CCTV along the way between Raf's and the cottage. Besides all the other superhuman abilities of the kids, this ranks up there. They were able to go back and forth to the cottage and the plaza and to dispose of their bloody clothes, shoes and cleaning supplies (those they didn't dip in bleach note that no items were missing) without being on camera once.

Where did they get rid of all the incriminating stuff? Vixen since you can't come up with a knife with no blood but DNA how about telling us how and where they ditched the stuff.

I heard they had rode Amanda's broomstick ABOVE the CCTV cams that night.

 

[Ken Dine]

See here:


http://the-gist.org/2011/03/seeing-red-–-presumptive-tests-for-blood/

"Luminol is not suitable for use at a scene where it is suspected that bleach has been used to clean the scene, and any positive result must be taken as a presumptive positive and followed up by analytical tests to confirm the presence of blood."

And:

All of the techniques described in this article are classed as presumptive tests. This is because they are prone to false positives so, while a negative result is assumed to mean that blood is not present, a positive result is a presumptive positive for blood and further analytical methods are required to confirm that blood is present. A negative result should be confirmed by using a positive control (for example a known blood sample) as the liquid solutions used in these presumptive tests are susceptible to degradation.

Once you have a presumptive positive for blood as well as analysis to confirm the sample is blood, you need to determine whether or not the blood is human and then you can move on to the process of attempting to discover who the blood came from."

Dr Felicity Carlysle

In short, both luminol and TMB are field tests that can indicate blood, but neither can confirm it, so anything the CSI people feel may be blood still needs to swabbed and taken to the lab for an actual test to confirm the sample as blood.

 

[Ken Dine]

Anyone know how to get to a translated page? Won't show up for me.

Use the Chrome browser and it will automatically translate webpages for you.

 

[Kauffer]

In short, both luminol and TMB are field tests that can indicate blood, but neither can confirm it, so anything the CSI people feel may be blood still needs to swabbed and taken to the lab for an actual test to confirm the sample as blood.

Yes. Unfortunately, Machiavelli cannot grasp this even after nearly eight years. Interestingly, all the luminol samples actually prove is that there was no clean up, since swirling patterns would have been revealed. Whilst Stefanoni hid the TMB results until late in the first trial, even she understood that this negative test for blood meant there was no blood. Accordingly she did not run a confirmatory test - at least we have not seen one. Yet, if there had been such a test, which was positive, it would have been introduced as evidence. So, we know for certain there was no positive confirmatory blood test.

 

[acbytesla]

Yes. Unfortunately, Machiavelli cannot grasp this even after nearly eight years. Interestingly, all the luminol samples actually prove is that there was no clean up, since swirling patterns would have been revealed. Whilst Stefanoni hid the TMB results until late in the first trial, even she understood that this negative test for blood meant there was no blood. Accordingly she did not run a confirmatory test - at least we have not seen one. Yet, if there had been such a test, which was positive, it would have been introduced as evidence. So, we know for certain there was no positive confirmatory blood test.

It's not that he can't. It's that he won't. Machiavelli is fully capable of grasping this. His mind has probably been made up since his associates held the press conference declaring that the case was closed. At that time his mind became closed as well. I have to wonder why? He certainly is smart enough to grasp this

So why is his mind lost to rational thought and reason? Is it his relationships with the Perugian authorities? Is it that he hates Americans or the college students in his town? Is he offended by the partying and what he perceives as sexual promiscuity?

What makes a smart guy dive off the deep end?

 

[LondonJohn]

I would think providing false documentation to the court about tests carried out on the most critical piece of evidence in the trial, and repeating that falsehood in verbal testimony to the court, would be sufficient justification to think that she was either dishonest or incompetent. This could be combined with the failure to keep contemporaneous records of the processing of the evidence (vacuum extraction protocol). Then this could be combined with the false testimony with regards to the TMB testing of Luminol positive stains. This could be combined with the incompetent handling when collecting the bra fastener. This could be combined with the false claim that she followed international standards when analysing the mixed DNA from the bra fastener.

There are multiple episodes of documented false statements by Stefanoni and errors of procedure. This would seem to provide justification for a detailed examination of everything else. I cannot say whether Steffanoni is dishonest or careless (I suspect the latter). I suspect that she was poorly resourced, unsupported, and had had insufficient training in the particular issues related to forensic laboratory work and lacked mentoring. In contrast to others I do not think she was a bad person. I think she was working in a bad system.

I have a sort of hybrid view of Stefanoni. While I do think she was out of her depth, I think she still had a huge personal (and institutional) responsibility to realise that she was out of her depth, and to be entirely open and honest about her shortcomings and mistakes. She was, after all, being asked to collect and analyse critical evidence in a very important murder trial, and to testify in that trial (where three people were potentially facing decades in prison on the strength or weakness of her findings and testimony).

I think that Stefanoni's analysis was careless and incompetent (and she should never in a million years have agreed to Mignini's *interesting* request for her to rush from Rome, over the heads of the local Nat Police CSIs, to head up the crime scene forensic investigation), and that she then became increasingly evasive and - yes - dishonest in her attempts to cover up for her incompetence. So in my mind she absolutely should not be given an easy ride in all this, and she should definitely be held to account (although this being Italy, it's highly likely that she won't face even the mildest censure...)

 

[Kauffer]

I have a sort of hybrid view of Stefanoni. While I do think she was out of her depth, I think she still had a huge personal (and institutional) responsibility to realise that she was out of her depth, and to be entirely open and honest about her shortcomings and mistakes. She was, after all, being asked to collect and analyse critical evidence in a very important murder trial, and to testify in that trial (where three people were potentially facing decades in prison on the strength or weakness of her findings and testimony).

I think that Stefanoni's analysis was careless and incompetent (and she should never in a million years have agreed to Mignini's *interesting* request for her to rush from Rome, over the heads of the local Nat Police CSIs, to head up the crime scene forensic investigation), and that she then became increasingly evasive and - yes - dishonest in her attempts to cover up for her incompetence. So in my mind she absolutely should not be given an easy ride in all this, and she should definitely be held to account (although this being Italy, it's highly likely that she won't face even the mildest censure...)

I wonder if there's any word on what's happened to her. I imagine, even in Italy, her reputation is tarnished. The CandV report is a demolition; the later acquittals a confirmation of it. The evidence interpreted at amandaknox.com reveals what amounts to a fraud - all of it directly connected to her and all immediately available via her name search. A permanent professional humiliation has been memorialised and she will never escape from it.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think that Stefanoni's analysis was careless and incompetent (and she should never in a million years have agreed to Mignini's *interesting* request for her to rush from Rome, over the heads of the local Nat Police CSIs, to head up the crime scene forensic investigation), and that she then became increasingly evasive and - yes - dishonest in her attempts to cover up for her incompetence. So in my mind she absolutely should not be given an easy ride in all this, and she should definitely be held to account (although this being Italy, it's highly likely that she won't face even the mildest censure...)

kind of true but Italian law enforcement agencies may just avoid calling on her services on any serious case.

 

[acbytesla]

I spent the morning reading their postings starting on March 27th (some posted below)

Generally, where Italian posters still felt Amanda was guilty, it was because she had accused an innocent man (Lumumba). No one was concerned with Amanda's interrogation, nor were they aware that the police had found an African man's hairs in Meredith's bedroom, so they couldn't begin to grok that the police had pressured Amanda into fingering Lumumba, an African man.

The Italians were generally disappointed with their legal system that had found Amanda guilty, then innocent, then guilty, then innocent again.

Even so, given the same facts, many Italians felt that Amanda would have been executed under the American justice system, so their system was still better (on the whole). [\Quote]

The mistake would be to believe that this forum or eventity a collection of forums even make up anything more than a tiniest fraction of the public and that we might be even the slightest bit representative of the general public I'm of the belief that the most people just don't care. And that eventually pretty much the vast majority will come to believe that they were innocent. After all, both of these young people have been model citizens.

 

[bagels]

Amanda wouldn't have gotten the death penalty in the US because the rape and burglary, the two aggravating circumstances necessary for a death sentence, were both staged, including her ingenious planting of the semen stain under the stripped body.

 

[codyjuneau]

Nice!
I hope that you get what you dream of,
girl!

If ya ever get to L.A.
drop me a note.
If ya know how to swim, just put on a cute lil' bikini
+ I'll take ya surfin' and push you into some waves here in the waters off Hollywood...

But with that said,
I gotta wonder what was Antonio Curatolo dreamin',
err thinkin' about on the night of Nov. 1st, 2007,
while high on heroin???

Maybe wishin' he was on the beach,
wearin' board shorts as I do daily + checkin' out the babes
and dreamin' of some of our warm California sunshine
as he spent a cold Fall night outside on a park bench?

Gosh,
I hope the old geezer stayed warm that night.

Heck,
I've read that Vixen,
well you'se be a bettin' kinda woman,
ain't that right?

I'd betcha that ol' Toto,
high on heroin that night,
saw and heard the commotion when the black dude
bumped into Alessandra Formica's guy pal around 10:30pm that night on those nearby steps.

He just did not wanna tell the Massei Court this.

I also betcha that ol' "Toto" heard and saw the tow truck driver workin' on the broken down car around 11:00pm.

He just did not wanna tell the Massei Court this.

And I betcha ol' "Toto" did hear that loud blood curdling' scream that made some ol' lady's skin crawl
from behind the safety of her double paned windows. And he did hear them dry leaves a rustlin' too...

He just did not wanna tell the Massei Court this.

Odd how ol' "Toto" did not apparently hear
whatever it was that caused many normal folks to look towards Meredith's apartment on that chilly November night:

I betcha that whatever it was that caused these folks
to look towards Meredith's apartment on a holiday evening
was related to her rape + murder.

Whatdoya think,
Vixen?

.
Hi RW.

I think the people may be looking at the car that was stopped on the road opposite the cottage driveway. The last two frames are interesting. The car in those 2 frames travels roughly 1 foot in 1 second. That equates to 3600 ft/hour which is a little over 1/2 mile/hour. It does not look like he is trying to get into the driveway otherwise he would have turned earlier. I think he may be waiting for an oncoming car to go by so he can get around the broken down car.

The mechanic later towed the broken down car to his garage. I wish someone would ask the mechanic what, if anything, was actually wrong with the car. It is a strange coincidence, as was the bomb threat phone call.

BTW, I have skipped a lot of posts lately but a post by RWVBWL a while back made what I think was a very important point. He said if the police thought they had found the hair of a black man at the crime scene, it did not matter if forensics later found out it was not because in the meantime the police were looking for a black man, hence the focus on Lumumba. A focus on Lumumba would have shaped their entire theory of the crime in a way that a focus on Rudy never could have. It is a shame their egos forced them to stupidly try and shoehorn Rudy into their existing Lumumba theory.

Cody
.

 

[Machiavelli]

Amanda wouldn't have gotten the death penalty in the US because the rape and burglary, the two aggravating circumstances necessary for a death sentence, were both staged, including her ingenious planting of the semen stain under the stripped body.

Possible semen stain.

 

[analemma]

Possible semen stain.

"Possible" in your dreams; and in the minds of Italian prosecutors.
Nutcase prosecutors did not test it because they knew it was from Rudy and would make it clear to everyone that Rudy was the only rapist-murderer.
Only fanatical witch hunters would refuse to test a semen stain in a rape murder case, and only because they wanted to avoid the truth that they were prosecuting innocents.
This failure by ITALIAN prosecutors/witch hunters to test the semen stain shows that they were not interested in the Truth: Ever.

 

[Desert Fox]

I think the story would be a very hard sell to a US jury especially when you do not need a majority but instead need a unanimous jury.