Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

We will never know what position Filomena left her outside shutters in when she left for the night. There are 3 possibilities.

After her housemate was found murdered, Filomena claimed that she pulled them as close as feasible given that they didn't close completely due to swollen wood. That is what she allegedly told Mignini when he first asked her about it.

Mignini later claimed that Filomena in (subsequent) questioning said she closed her shutters, implying all the way (what about the swollen wood problem?)

Filomena was running late getting ready for a friend's birthday party that evening. She asked Raffaele to wrap her gift because she was short on time. Perhaps she did not reach outside and close her shutters at all as she hurridly left for the party.

We will never know the real position of the shutters when Filomena left that day. We do know from photos of a divot in and a glass shard driven into the outside side of an inside shutter, and glass fragment and rock dispersal and fragment patterns in the room that the rock was thrown through the window from the outside. That is what physics tells us, even though Mignini, Massei, Vixen, Dr. Mull, van der Leek, et al, don't want to hear it. (Yea, science is a bitch, Kimo Sabi.)

One of the things that drives me crazy in this case is the use of people's memories of inconsequential events. I usually lock even take the time to make sure I lock my car or house doors. I can't begin to tell you how often I have returned to either and found them unlocked. And this is just one example.

So when Filomena says she shut her shutters, I have a tendency to give it little weight.

Curatolo coming forth months later saying he saw Amanda in the park at a specific time. Why would he notice a couple and the day? These people were nothing to the bum, so why would he remember them? He probably sees couple all the time. Why would he remember their faces? The Kiosk owner who said Toto was almost always on the bench. Why would he remember when he wasn't?

I saw dozens of strangers today. I might be able to recall a few of them tomorrow..but a week from today? Or even longer? Not a chance.

 

[Grinder]

Strozzi, it makes no difference but F left in the afternoon. I have never believed that she closed the outside shutters and certainly they weren't locked. Before I became aware that the car area made for an easy toss, I was skeptical that it could be thrown from below but no problem from the car park.

 

[Ken Dine]

We will never know what position Filomena left her outside shutters in when she left for the night. There are 3 possibilities.

After her housemate was found murdered, Filomena claimed that she pulled them as close as feasible given that they didn't close completely due to swollen wood. That is what she allegedly told Mignini when he first asked her about it.

As I recall, Filomena was initially unsure if she had closed the outer shutters, then later Filomena said she had partially closed them due to the swollen wood, but under questioning by the defense when asked about her two versions, Filomena said her first description was probably the best one since it was closest to the event, so likely she had left the outer shutters open as she initially had said, but if not entirely open, then at least ajar and unlatched so they could be easily opened from the outside.

Mignini later claimed that Filomena in (subsequent) questioning said she closed her shutters, implying all the way (what about the swollen wood problem?)

According to Filomena the outer shutters were either left entirely open, or at least ajar and unlatched.

Filomena was running late getting ready for a friend's birthday party that evening. She asked Raffaele to wrap her gift because she was short on time.

As I recall, Amanda helped Filomena's boyfriend, Marco, wrap the B-Day present intended for their friend Luca. Filomena and Marco were in a rush to make the party on time, but since they left the cottage before hungover Meredith even woke up that morning, the party must have been an early afternoon party.

We know from his testimony that Luca lived only 10 minutes from the cottage, so Filomena and Marco likely arrived at the party around 1 pm, if not before.

Perhaps she did not reach outside and close her shutters at all as she hurridly left for the party.

We'll never know since even Filomena didn't know if she had closed the outer shutters or not.

We will never know the real position of the shutters when Filomena left that day, but whatever the position of the shutters - mostly closed, closed, or possibly even wide open - that were not a deterrent to someone who can climb up the lower window bars as if it were a ladder.

Agreed.

We do know from photos of a divot in and a glass shard driven into the outside side of an inside shutter, and glass fragment and rock dispersal and fragment patterns in the room that the rock was thrown through the window from the outside. That is what physics tells us, even though Mignini, Massei, Vixen, Dr. Mull, van der Leek, et al, don't want to hear it. (Yea, science is a bitch, Kimo Sabi.)

There's zero doubt that the rock was thrown from the outside. Only a Mensa dipwad could possibly theorize otherwise.

 

[Dougm]

Strozzi, it makes no difference but F left in the afternoon. I have never believed that she closed the outside shutters and certainly they weren't locked. Before I became aware that the car area made for an easy toss, I was skeptical that it could be thrown from below but no problem from the car park.

This is another thing people love to debate that doesn't matter (as you noted). How F left the shutters does not affect Rudy's ability to have changed that. She said they didn't close well, so from that we know it would not have been a sealed shutter set that he could not open prior to tossing the rock. How she left them is less important than their availability to someone wanting to open them for their own purposes.

 

[Strozzi]

As I recall, Filomena was initially unsure if she had closed the outer shutters, then later Filomena said she had partially closed them due to the swollen wood, but under questioning by the defense when asked about her two versions, Filomena said her first description was probably the best one since it was closest to the event, so likely she had left the outer shutters open as she initially had said, but if not entirely open, then at least ajar and unlatched so they could be easily opened from the outside.




According to Filomena the outer shutters were either left entirely open, or at least ajar and unlatched.




As I recall, Amanda helped Filomena's boyfriend, Marco, wrap the B-Day present intended for their friend Luca. Filomena and Marco were in a rush to make the party on time, but since they left the cottage before hungover Meredith even woke up that morning, the party must have been an early afternoon party.

We know from his testimony that Luca lived only 10 minutes from the cottage, so Filomena and Marco likely arrived at the party around 1 pm, if not before.




We'll never know since even Filomena didn't know if she had closed the outer shutters or not.




Agreed.




There's zero doubt that the rock was thrown from the outside. Only a Mensa dipwad could possibly theorize otherwise.

Ken, I see you also speak Comanche. For those of you beyond the big river, what Ken wrote means "initiate" (noun) in Comanche.

 

[Ken Dine]

Ken, I see you also speak Comanche. For those of you beyond the big river, what Ken wrote means "initiate" (noun) in Comanche.

Since it's been awhile since I last watched Dances with Wolves, I honestly must admit that my Comanche is a tad rusty lately, so I defer to you.

 

[Grinder]

This is another thing people love to debate that doesn't matter (as you noted). How F left the shutters does not affect Rudy's ability to have changed that. She said they didn't close well, so from that we know it would not have been a sealed shutter set that he could not open prior to tossing the rock. How she left them is less important than their availability to someone wanting to open them for their own purposes.

Yes one of many ridiculous points made by the PG team. As you say if she had pulled them together it wouldn't really matter. Massei had it important because it proved staging as no burglar would climb up three times. Clearly a burglar could have reached the shutters easily or could have used a stick to open them if they were actually closed.

In the meantime I'd like at least one other example of a knife used for murder coming up negative for blood yet have the DNA of the victim on it. In the future more and more restrictions will be put on the use of LCN DNA as it becomes clear how easy it is to transfer and how hard it is to test reliably.

 

[RWVBWL]

Cocaine or Heroin?

One of the things that drives me crazy in this case is the use of people's memories of inconsequential events.

<snip>

Curatolo coming forth months later saying he saw Amanda in the park at a specific time. Why would he notice a couple and the day? These people were nothing to the bum, so why would he remember them? He probably sees couple all the time. Why would he remember their faces? The Kiosk owner who said Toto was almost always on the bench. Why would he remember when he wasn't?

I saw dozens of strangers today. I might be able to recall a few of them tomorrow..but a week from today? Or even longer? Not a chance.

Maybe Antonio Curatolo,
no stranger to having to testify in court in the small town of Perugia, Italy,
(who had a role as a witness as well in two other trials for terrible crimes, among which are the murder of poor Mrs. Scota, landlady, killed in Via delle Cantine, and the murder of the very young North African Najla Dridi, killed in the swimming pool of Via Pompeo Pellini)

Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1fODcrj3SKAD4YPU6aIR9-UvEVGfYCGf8ramuaQkK8uA&hl=en&pli=1

had a drug bust over his head and maybe, just maybe,
anytime the local cops needed, ahem, some help, many months later in a tough case they were trying to get a conviction in,
he was glad to oblige them with some superb eye witness testimony, ok?

I mean, come on,
you ACbytesla already know this!

Surely Vixen,
with over 1,500 post since a coupla monts ago,
knows of this too,
right?


I wonder if Vixen knows of this:
Hobo Antonio Curatolo, star witness against American college student Amanda Knox was unmasked this week as a shifty operator, unreliable narrator--and, added bonus, a heroin dealer.

"He sold doses of heroin twice a week, for three months, to a Perugian drug addict, Nicola M. ," reveals Corriere Dell Umbria, from the hilltop town where British student Meredtih Kercher was stabbed to death on Nov. 7, 2007. "According to the investigation carried out by the carabinieri with manned surveillance, tailing and photos, he sold drugs for 30 Euro a dose."

Prosecutor Giuliano Mignini built a murder conviction against Knox and her Italian ex-boyfriend, Raffaele Sollecito greatly helped by "Toto's" testimony. Mignini called the tramp's court debut: "One of the key points (in the trial) and the most important testimony. Credible, absolutely credible, trustworthy ... without a doubt."

* * *


For more about Antonio "Toto" Curatolo,
an interested person such as Vixen,
who has not followed, for years, this brutal murder case we discuss,
might wanna read here,
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/antonio-curatolo/
There is even courtroom testimony from The Massei Court and The Hellmann Court
from The Tramp, as PM Mignini has called Curatolo in,
IIRC, "poor Rudy's" interrogation deposition.

I wonder why PM Mignini never just called "Toto" a drug dealer?
Heck, "the tramp" didn't die in prison because he lived a hobo lifestyle + slept on a bench,
he died in prison because he was convicted of selling heroin,
right?


Or was that cocaine?


Are cocaine sales a lesser crime than heroin in Italy,?
Surely the newspaper or magazine reports,
like from Oggi and Corriere dell Umbria, were wrong,
it was heroin, not cocaine,
that Toto was busted with and sentenced to die for,
err, spend 18 months in jail for.


No way that Curatolo got a sweet-heart deal
and had his heroin bust turned into a simple cocaine bust,
for helpin' The PM in his time of need, ya know, to bust The Kids,
right?

 

[Grinder]

Link:
https://docs.google.com/document/edit?id=1fODcrj3SKAD4YPU6aIR9-UvEVGfYCGf8ramuaQkK8uA&hl=en&pli=1

Do you know who authored this?

You might like this http://www.perugiatoday.it/cronaca/...-morto-povero-appello-pagamento-funerali.html

 

[RWVBWL]

Nope,
but maybe it was RoseMontague,
I seem to recall that she posted many doc's online for us years ago...

 

[RWVBWL]

I'm kinda interested in this "Toto" was convicted for selling cocaine issue.

Why?
because I seem to recall that he had a drug bust over his head for many, many years, but it was not until after The Massei Court convicted the Kids 6 years later, and it looked that their Appeal might become successful,, that, IIRC, "The Tramp" was jailed and then convicted for drug sales.

From reading around over the last 30 minutes or so to refresh my memory a bit, it seems that Toto was sentenced to 18 months for 1 drug conviction, and was due to go to trial for another bust.

I also seem to recall the Christian Anarchist did not apparently understand why he was even in prison, weird that statement, comin' from a guy who can remember specific details about a young couple arguin' and hangin' around all night outside, from 9:27pm onward, on a windy, chilly Nov. night...


Why am I also interested in The Cocaine Question?

This:
Judge Paolo Micheli admitted several new pieces of evidence, including the testimony of a young Somali man who used to play basketball with Guede on a court near the rented house that Miss Kercher shared with Knox.
<snip>
In the document, Abukar Mohamed Barrow, known as “Momi”, accused Guede of drinking too much, taking drugs and trying to steal the handbags of young women during nights out on the town.

“Rudy was often drunk. I know he took cocaine. Often he was off his head with the drugs that he was taking. And when he was like that he would be a nuisance to girls, he’d block their path and try to hassle them. When we were in crowded places he stole their bags,” Barrow testified, according to excerpts of his evidence printed in the Italian press.

Link:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-to-women.html
* * *


If "Toto" was livin' on the bench next to the basketball court,
I bectha that "poor Rudy" knew ol' Toto.

If "Toto" was slingin' dope, like cocaine,
and Rudy himself, liked sniffin' a few lines before dancin,
"poor Rudy" mighta even been a dude who,
ah, made a purchase or 2 from the tramp.
heck, maybe "Toto" even gave "The Baron" credit,
for all we know...

Or did Rudy get his coke somewhere else?

 

[Grinder]

RW - Rudi admits knowing him in his witness statement.

Curatolo was clearly spaced and didn't understand much.

The PGP would be smart to drop him as he provides insurmountable time constraints for any timeline.

I thought he was convicted for dealing H but haven't checked your most recent stuff.

Off to paint

 

[Samson]

Um . . . "allowing" an appeal and "winning" an appeal are two different things.

An appeal is "allowed" when the appellate court exercises its discretion to hear an appeal. If your appeal is allowed, you still have to win.

Some appeals are mandatory, meaning that the appellate court has no discretion to disallow the appeal. You simply file the appeal and win or lose.

I would be very surprised in the UK doesn't have mandatory appeals for people convicted of serious crimes like murder. Of course, many people probably lose those appeals, but that's not the same as the appeal not being "allowed."

No, it doesn't. English law aims for closure. Judge and Jury's verdict final.

You can apply for any appeal at any level and over any court decision.

Once verdict passed, you can apply for an appeal hearing, to put your case.

Ninety-nine out of a hundred appeal applications are refused by the registrars - normally judges - who do the sifting, without any further hearing.

New Zealand has roughly the same system as UK. Language varies transatlantically it seems.
We have the right to appeal murder convictions, and if successful it is termed the appeal is either allowed or denied.
It is true that the Italian system is far superior, because there is almost no doubt A and R's appeal would have been denied in New Zealand with in six months. This always happens because the grounds are extremely narrow, and if the jury found a fact it seems to be held sacrosanct.

There is no such thing as a de novo procedure at the first appeal as in Italy, where everything is reset. "All we know is Meredith was murdered, let us start again."

It becomes very interesting to me, because the parallels to the Mark Lundy conviction are very close indeed. A seemingly rock solid alibi in a very bloody murder with no forensic trace, totally implausible motive and opportunity, and forensic connection "discovered" late, in dubious circumstances, and bogus science used to "confirm" the link.

Mark Lundy would have won his appeal in Italy, because a key false statement made by judge Andrew Tipping in denying his appeal would have been tested in court and he would have walked. Unfortunately he still has 8 years to serve of twenty.

Apart from that, the Italian system is ridiculous, with the two day a week sittings interrupted for months for ski holidays and so on.

 

[Ken Dine]

RW - Rudi admits knowing him in his witness statement.

Curatolo was clearly spaced and didn't understand much.

The PGP would be smart to drop him as he provides insurmountable time constraints for any timeline.

Another very good reason for the police to stop using Curatolo's testimony is because Curatolo died several years ago (shortly after he testified for Hellmann).

I thought he was convicted for dealing H but haven't checked your most recent stuff.

Off to paint

Don't paint yourself into a corner!

 

[RWVBWL]

Vixen,
How come,
in the re-created scenes that I copy and post below,
with Fair Use in mind for public discussion,
from a fictional LifeTime movie with the story being based on the brutal rape and murder we discuss, that, without question, only Rudy Guede's DNA, hand print, and shoe imprints is found in Miss Kercher's bedroom, on her clothing, and inside her genitalia?

Look,
I'm gettin' hammered again on a July night here in L.A.
I dig old English Heavy Metal, been so since the 70's.
Ain't you an English broad?
Maybe you can dig what I'm listenin' too,
and sayin...

There is no way, as I listen to some old Iron Maiden,
like Runnin' Free, Wrath Child, Aces High, Run to the Hills, + Wasted Years
and some early Judas Priest songs,
such as The Sinner, Diamonds + Rust,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tHbz2lYgqJ8
Victim of Changes, + Deceiver,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3IH-Ex6OBoY
and of course the Green Manalishi,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgnOJXIvu6s
that I can ever visualize, when lookin' at the pix I copied + posted above,
that Amanda Knox and [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] would not have left,
without a doubt what so ever, as Rudy Guede did,
their DNA on Meredith's blue Adidas Jacket, her purse,
inside her genitalia.

How the heck did they remove any and all traces of themselves from on or inside her corpse,
while leaving, without any doubt whatsoever, proof that only "poor Rudy"
was here, there, + elsewhere inside of Miss Kercher's bedroom?

If you are really a Mensa Chick,
explain this to me, a shark likin', surfer dude, ok?
Thanks in advance,
RW

 

[davefoc]

Caveat: My understanding of what I wrote below is not good. I do not mean to represent in any way that I have significant expertise with regard to the use of DNA testing for forensic purposes.

Second Caveat: I have treated the possibility that the finding of Kercher's DNA on the kitchen knife was a legitimate result for the purposes of discussion. My overall view is that it is unlikely that Kercher's DNA was on the knife.

No Vixen I'm not excluding blood. The test on the knife excluded blood. Tiny amounts of DNA are fine as long as there is no way it got there by secondary or tertiary transfer.

The amount of DNA of MK allegedly found on the knife was about 100 pico grams or 1/585,000 of a grain of salt.

Steffi claims to have seen the striations with her naked eye. The sample supposedly was stuck in the striation so it couldn't be smaller. It would seem to be bigger than 100 pico grams but it wasn't
...

Is there a problem with this analysis? Wouldn't the DNA have been contained within cells?

I tried to get an estimate of the mass of the DNA per the mass of an average cell and it turns out to be difficult to estimate because there is considerable variability in the mass of a cell but I came up with a rough estimate that about the mass of the DNA in a cell is about 1/1000 of the total mass of the cell.

So maybe Steffi saw about 1000 times as much stuff as the 100 pico grams of DNA would suggest or about 100 nano grams of stuff (10 ^-7 grams)

One estimate of the mass of a grain of salt on the web is 5.85 x 10^-5 grams* which is apparently the one Grinder used. If my understanding of this is correct then a rough estimate of the stuff that Steffi might have observed was that it was about 1/500 the mass of a grain of salt. However, there is the issue that red blood cells don't contain DNA and much more blood would need to be present than if the source of the DNA was from human cells that have genetic material.

So presumably if the source of the DNA was blood then the sample from the knife should have been positive for blood and the blood would have been apparent under a microscope. I think, somebody quoted a forensic scientist saying that if blood was the source of the DNA he would always expect a positive result for blood if DNA was detected. I can now understand why that might be. In blood there is a lot more stuff to react with the blood test reactants than there is DNA so that you need quite a bit of blood before you can recover DNA if blood is the source of the DNA.


* I estimated the mass of a grain of salt to be 13 x 10^-5 grams. I measured several grains of salt from our salt shaker to be about .4 mm. A cube .4 mm on a side has a volume of .064 cubic mm's which based on the 2.17 grams/cubic centimeter density of sodium chloride leads to my estimate. Apparently the guy who came up with the 5.85 x 10^-5 grams had smaller grains of salt than we do or maybe he did a better job of measuring. I used calipers and I took a macro picture of our salt grains. Both those measurement techniques yielded a value of about .4 mm for the size of our salt grains but there was considerable variability and maybe the 5.85 x 10^-5 gram estimate is a better one although given the variability of the size of a grain of salt 5.85 suggests that the estimate of the mass of a grain of salt is way more precise than it actually is.

 

[katy_did]

Yes one of many ridiculous points made by the PG team. As you say if she had pulled them together it wouldn't really matter. Massei had it important because it proved staging as no burglar would climb up three times. Clearly a burglar could have reached the shutters easily or could have used a stick to open them if they were actually closed.

In the meantime I'd like at least one other example of a knife used for murder coming up negative for blood yet have the DNA of the victim on it. In the future more and more restrictions will be put on the use of LCN DNA as it becomes clear how easy it is to transfer and how hard it is to test reliably.

It's hard to find details, but I think the knife Matthew Hardman used to kill Mabel Leyshon would probably qualify - they found it in his coat pocket, first tests were negative for DNA, but using LCN techniques they found profiles from Hardman and Leyshon. Confusingly, press reports talk about a "bloodied knife", but it's hard to see how a knife with blood on it would yield so little DNA. I think the description on this page is probably more accurate (the author uses the case to teach DNA): "During the arrest of Matthew Hardman, a knife was found in his coat pocket, but there was no visible blood on it. DNA testing of the damaged knife handle, however, revealed two sources of DNA, one matching Hardman and a partial profile matching the victim". Admittedly that was a partial profile, not a full one, and they don't actually mention it tested negative for blood (though I think it would've been reported if it had tested positive).

 

[Grinder]

It's hard to find details, but I think the knife Matthew Hardman used to kill Mabel Leyshon would probably qualify - they found it in his coat pocket, first tests were negative for DNA, but using LCN techniques they found profiles from Hardman and Leyshon. Confusingly, press reports talk about a "bloodied knife", but it's hard to see how a knife with blood on it would yield so little DNA. I think the description on this page is probably more accurate (the author uses the case to teach DNA): "During the arrest of Matthew Hardman, a knife was found in his coat pocket, but there was no visible blood on it. DNA testing of the damaged knife handle, however, revealed two sources of DNA, one matching Hardman and a partial profile matching the victim". Admittedly that was a partial profile, not a full one, and they don't actually mention it tested negative for blood (though I think it would've been reported if it had tested positive).

Well it clearly says there was no visible blood not that it tested negative. You've given Vixen a lead and I'm sure that if the case records show that it tested negative for blood we'll hear about it. BTW it only produced a partial DNA match for the victim. This was a 2001 case so wouldn't have been LCN AFAIK.

From the BBC - "He was found guilty after the jury was told DNA found at the murder scene matched blood found on a knife at Hardman's home."

 

[RWVBWL]

Wow,
was I drunk and wasted last night
when I posted those 2 pics of a recreation of the attack on Miss Kercher.

I've been in a few fist fights in years past when I've been hammered before,
blood sometimes gets everywhere.

Rudy was possibly drunk when he raped Meredith.
Most guilters believe that AK and [SIZE="-7"]Raff[/SIZE] were high on something.

How did Amanda and [SIZE="-7"]Raff[/SIZE] not have any of Meredith's blood on themselves?
How could they go back and forth inside Meredith's bedroom, during the attack, and as they supposedly cleaned up the evidence of their participation later, + not step in it nor leave further traces of themselves as they cleaned up inside her bedroom?

While being drunk, or wasted?

 

[Diocletus]

There is no such thing as a de novo procedure at the first appeal as in Italy, where everything is reset. "All we know is Meredith was murdered, let us start again."

What "appeal?" They never got an appeal--it was all "one trial", remember? There are no appeals in Italy. In the alternative, if there are appeals in Italy, then they have no prohibition against double jeopardy.

As for the "de novo" second and third instance trials . . . were they really de novo? People like Machiavelli seem to go on about how the higher level courts have no power to upset the fact findings of the lower courts, and the conclusions of higher level courts. That's not de novo.