• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Observing Psychokinesis in a Lab—Researchers Taking Psi Mainstream?

Lukas1986

Critical Thinker
L
Joined
Dec 15, 2012
Messages
302
Hi

Found this little article. I want to know what you guys think of it:

Observing Psychokinesis in a Lab—Researchers Taking Psi Mainstream?
By Tara MacIsaac, Epoch Times | June 17, 2015Last Updated: June 22, 2015 10:22 pm

The universe is full of mysteries that challenge our current knowledge. In "Beyond Science" Epoch Times collects stories about these strange phenomena to stimulate the imagination and open up previously undreamed of possibilities. Are they true? You decide.

CHARLOTTESVILLE, Va.—Exuding mysterious and strange forces from one’s mind to bend a spoon or otherwise affect a physical object has long seemed to many a rather unscientific pastime. But in a state-of-the-art lab at the University of Virginia’s Division of Perceptual Studies (DOPS), psychokinesis isn’t a sensationalized magic-show talent. Its subtle forms are studied and scientifically measured in various ways.

Dr. Ross Dunseath, an electrical engineer, has made advances in fine tuning novel sensors that can pick up on psychokinetic forces. His instruments are also able to measure physiological changes in people performing psychokinesis tasks. His research partner, Dr. Ed Kelly, a Yale- and Harvard-educated psychologist and neuroscientist, has studied psi phenomena since the 1970s (Psi refers to any psychic phenomenon, such as psychokinesis, telepathy, or clairvoyance).
Identifying the physiological changes associated with psi could really help bring psi research into the mainstream.

Identifying the physiological changes associated with psi could really help bring psi research into the mainstream, Kelly explained. “Showing that a psi event is connected to some other thing is good, because that anchors it. It’s not just a free-floating anomaly, it’s something related to something else. And if the ‘something else’ is physiological, in the contemporary frame of mind, that’s particularly good.”

This could resolve a lot of the issues most often brought up by critics of psi research. For example, the physiological research could give greater control in the lab. If certain biological characteristics or states are identified as correlating with psychokinetic powers, those states or characteristics could perhaps be induced in subjects. This way, psychokinesis could take place on demand in a controlled manner.

More than half the battle for Dunseath and Kelly is finding subjects who have psychokinetic abilities. And their nearly impossible task is finding such subjects who can use these abilities on demand. Furthermore, the person must be able to do so under conditions that work with the given measurement tools. A subject must remain relatively still while his brain activity is being measured using an electroencephalogram (EEG) or a magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) machine.

One subject Dunseath and Kelly studied was able to enter a sort of ecstatic state on demand. But testing him in an MRI machine or with an EEG was difficult, as he moved around quite a bit in this state. Nonetheless, the researchers were able to pinpoint with some certainty parts of the brain activated in this altered state of consciousness and found that they correspond to some physiological effects found in advanced meditators.

While Kelly and Dunseath have witnessed impressive psi events in the past, they have yet to hit on a really outstanding test subject on whom to use their new equipment. Some minor successes provide hope that in the future, when someone with outstanding psi abilities enters their lab, they will be able to measure what’s happening during psi events in a way no one has before.
Click to expand...

Taken from: http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/138...s-in-a-lab-researchers-taking-psi-mainstream/

More here: http://www.theepochtimes.com/n3/138...s-in-a-lab-researchers-taking-psi-mainstream/

I am quite frankly skeptical that PSI will become mainstream because of few reasons even mentioned in the article but I would like to know you guys think of it. Thanks for reading this and I wish you a nice day.
 
"We've got really great evidence unless you want to examine or quantify it in any way because then we have nothing."
 
Epoch Times - ah, yes - that fine scientific journal.

The article basically says "we've created all this really cool stuff to measure PSI but haven't been able to measure anything with it yet. Obviously, it's because we're testing the wrong people...".
 
Thanks for the replies so far. After reading it again I came to a question.

Is PSI not spiritual at least to some people in parapsychology circles? So how can they measure something which they claim is paranormal? Because if they can measure it then its no longer paranormal and its normal and materialistic.

I hope that these are not stupid questions but I find this rather contradicting in parapsychology because at least from my Science of Religion studies our teachers claimed that PSI is paranormal thus spiritual and cannot be measured.
 
If something is happening, Lucas, it can be recorded and measured. End of story.
 
"But in a state-of-the-art lab at the University of Virginia’s Division of Perceptual Studies (DOPS), psychokinesis isn’t a sensationalized magic-show talent. Its subtle forms are studied and scientifically measured in various ways."

need to prove an effect is there before pretending to study it.

" has made advances in fine tuning novel sensors that can pick up on psychokinetic forces."
"measure physiological changes in people performing psychokinesis tasks"

can't pick up force which are not determined to exists and particularly have special sensor to pick only those forces from which you do not know the nature. But I am game : maybe they can post a schematic of the "instruments" to see how special they are.

"has studied psi phenomena since the 1970s"

Where is the beef ? That is 45 years ago he started. Where are the evidences ?

"More than half the battle for Dunseath and Kelly is finding subjects who have psychokinetic abilities."

That is 99% of the battle. The 1% of the battle will be properly documenting it.

Basically : it is a bunch of crap which already assume psi existing and that it is only a simple thing to pick it up. The problem is actually to demonstrate its existence, the first stepping stone. So far nobody has been able to do that, the "best" result from the whole shebang , beside a healthy production of fraud, were article about how a specific type of experiment (ganzfeld) may under certain selection and mathematical analyzes (meta analyzis) mixing good and bad protocol comes up with maybe a mathematical statistical anomaly.

That's about it.
 
Lukas1986 said:
Thanks for the replies so far. After reading it again I came to a question.

Is PSI not spiritual at least to some people in parapsychology circles?
Click to expand...

PSI is nothing more than a means to make money off the gullible to the people in the parapsychology circles. It's really that simple.
 
In one of the countless threads on sigh (that is really how it is spelled) multiple poster discussed the evolutionary advantage sigh would convey. It was also pointed out that sigh should be observable in microbes.
 
Mudcat said:
PSI is nothing more than a means to make money off the gullible to the people in the parapsychology circles. It's really that simple.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, the other way round, actually.

It's a method that "parapsychology researchers" can use to dupe gullible donors into financing for many, many, MANY years. Thus providing themselves with a sinecure income for doing bugger all and laughing all the way to the bank.

Proof: PEAR. 23 years holed up in Princeton in a privately-paid-for lab and not one single positive result whatsoever, just a whole bunch of whooey pseudo-scientific papers to gull the donors into giving them more millions.
 
I recall reading the book by the fellow who became convinced of the "Gellar Effect", and decided that he would do best to test children...As "children wouldn't lie".

He devised a number of interesting tests like putting bits of wire inside of glass balls....The children were alas, unable to bend them. However, on seeing Geller's problems with performing when there were skeptics around.....He hit upon the "shyness effect".
The poor kiddies couldn't do their thing while being directly observed! Then, in another stroke of genius, he figured that the seamless glass ball might be blocking the telekineic effect.....So he introduced a small hole in the glass balls. Much too small to allow the children to do anything naughty...

Amazingly, out of sight, some of the kiddies were able to miraculously "scrunch" (his word...) the bits of wire.
The depths of gullibility exhibited by someone who wanted so badly to believe were remarkable.
 
Lukas1986 said:
Thanks for the replies so far. After reading it again I came to a question.

Is PSI not spiritual at least to some people in parapsychology circles? So how can they measure something which they claim is paranormal? Because if they can measure it then its no longer paranormal and its normal and materialistic.

I hope that these are not stupid questions but I find this rather contradicting in parapsychology because at least from my Science of Religion studies our teachers claimed that PSI is paranormal thus spiritual and cannot be measured.
Click to expand...

I am an amateur and my response is more opinion than anything else.

First off, Psi is so broad a term that to make general statements like "it can't be measured," is not helpful. "My spidey-sense is tingling therefore I am in danger" is an example of something that cannot be measured. "I can astrally project and read books thousands of miles away as clearly as if they were right in front of me" is a psychic claim that can be measured. If someone were to repeatedly demonstrate this power under tightly-controlled conditions, then we would have tangible evidence for psychic power. That ability is so far removed from our understanding of the universe that I think it would be appropriate to call it a proven paranormal power - at least until researchers came up with a naturalistic explanation for such abilities.

I think your question is valid and I await more answers to it.
 
MikeG said:
If something is happening, Lucas, it can be recorded and measured. End of story.
Click to expand...


Are you familiar with "The Dragon in My Garage", from Carl Sagan's "The Demon-Haunted World".
There will always be an excuse why whatever you're using to try to record and measure psychic powers is the wrong instrument and won't work, despite the powers being real. Honest, they are. Would I lie to you?
 
MikeG said:
If something is happening, Lucas, it can be recorded and measured. End of story.
Click to expand...

Not end of story unfortunately. While theoretically it's true, practically it isn't. You don't need psi studies to show this, just ask a few behavioralists to what extent (measured), genes influence behavior. There's a ton of such examples.
 
I would love to test the shyness/"It doesn't work when Skeptics are around" effect.

After anyone fails the proper test due to 'bad skeptic energy', they would automatically qualify for a bonus round! All they have to do is perform their psi *no matter it is* in front of a camera/one-way mirror with unknown people behind. If their *self-declared* success/fail matches the absence/presence of a skeptic glaring at them behind the mirror, then we have evidence of psi energy.

The odds would work out the same as a coin flip: 17 out of 20 I think?
 
Thanks for your replies. I only wanted to point out that reading the article I get the feeling that there are contradiction like there always was. I once read that some parapsychologist proposed that there exist a particle called psion which would explain these powers.(I know that its now used in fiction but someone took this as reality). So after reading the article there was the same claim that they are measuring and looking for psychokinetic forces. However I am not very skilled in this and it is mostly a opinion.
 
Bikewer said:
I recall reading the book by the fellow who became convinced of the "Gellar Effect", and decided that he would do best to test children...As "children wouldn't lie".

He devised a number of interesting tests like putting bits of wire inside of glass balls....The children were alas, unable to bend them. However, on seeing Geller's problems with performing when there were skeptics around.....He hit upon the "shyness effect".
The poor kiddies couldn't do their thing while being directly observed! Then, in another stroke of genius, he figured that the seamless glass ball might be blocking the telekineic effect.....So he introduced a small hole in the glass balls. Much too small to allow the children to do anything naughty...

Amazingly, out of sight, some of the kiddies were able to miraculously "scrunch" (his word...) the bits of wire.
The depths of gullibility exhibited by someone who wanted so badly to believe were remarkable.
Click to expand...

I believe that the persons you are referring to are John Hasted and John G. Taylor who carried out various "studies" like this with children in the 1970s. James Randi has an absolutely hilarious couple of pages about John Hasted in his book Flim Flam. Martin Gardner in his book Science: Good, Bad and Bogus, also has some hilarious stuff about Hasted's absurd "experiments" with children.

The victim of the "Geller effect" who tested children and was easily deceived in the 1970s , John G. Taylor, who also discussed the "shyness effect" and was taken in by the kids. He eventually published a book called Superminds about these kids. Later rather interestingly Prof. Taylor changed his mind about all this and wrote a book called Science and the Supernatural: An Investigation of Paranormal Phenomena, in which Taylor concludes that paranormal phenomena of any kind are extremely unlikely. Martin Gardner in the book mentioned above has two chapters about John G. Taylor's folly.
 
lylfyl said:
I would love to test the shyness/"It doesn't work when Skeptics are around" effect.

After anyone fails the proper test due to 'bad skeptic energy', they would automatically qualify for a bonus round! All they have to do is perform their psi *no matter it is* in front of a camera/one-way mirror with unknown people behind. If their *self-declared* success/fail matches the absence/presence of a skeptic glaring at them behind the mirror, then we have evidence of psi energy.

The odds would work out the same as a coin flip: 17 out of 20 I think?
Click to expand...

The old catch 22 of psychic research that the presence of skeptic destroys psychic powers. Note this occurs if the skeptic is merely observing the experiment. This is true because psychic powers are so delicate that the negative vibes of a psychic being anywhere near the sensitive psychic destroys psychic powers through "negative" vibes. No doubt the presence of any skeptic anywhere in the world will be sufficient to explain any failure of an experiment to show psychic powers existing.

This of course goes with catch 23 in which careful experimental design, as against loose experimental design destroys psychic powers, mainly by "upsetting" the psychic. Of course the fact that it so much easier to cheat in a loose experiment, along with all sorts of flaws etc., in a loose experiment that allows for false positive results in a loose experiment is just a coincidence. Yeah right!

Then there is catch 24 in which a skeptic reading about a psychic experiment that showed positive results and finding flaws that make it worthless in proving that psychic powers exist has caused this by his/her negative vibes causing a backward causality that negatively affected the experiment.

No doubt there are more catches in the excuse mongering that is Psi research.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom