Gee, I didn't know there was a brush that board even made.
At 9/11 Memorial Services I guess you identify everyone there as a "truther" simply because they are there, right?
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South Carolina, tear down that flag!
- Thread starter Alferd_Packer
- Start date
Gee, I didn't know there was a brush that board even made.
At 9/11 Memorial Services I guess you identify everyone there as a "truther" simply because they are there, right?
Here's a pleasant video of the flag demonstrating Southern Heritage.<--a thousand time over
Yea, just like the bloody "truthers" make everyone at a 9/11 Memorial Service a "truther". Is that you're best example of critical thinking?
Mumbles
Philosopher
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- Dec 9, 2008
- Messages
- 8,726
So...basically, we're supposed to just trust, in the face of all US history, that the white people waving a flag that symbolizes white supremacy, in reaction to the first black president of the US, are just voicing well-meaning political disagreements.
Um, no.
When people tell me who they are, I believe them. If we're passing a playground and a friend says "Am I the only one who thinks little kids are sexy?", I'm not leaving him or her alone with a child. If some gun owner starts blathering about how they wish someone would break into their house so he or she can shoot and kill the intruder, I'll assume that the person is barely controlling their violence. I see no reason to give such a person the benefit of the doubt after that sort of statement. And my reaction to people waving the battle flag is no different - they're free to wave the flag around, and I'm free to note the blatant racial tones involved.
Mumbles
Philosopher
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- 8,726
Well, no, this is more like yelling "9/11 is an inside job! I brought my bottle of vinegar so the government chemtrails won't affect me!" and then wondering why everyone thinks you're a conspiracy theorist.
I can't read their minds and neither can you. It does not symbolize white supremacy to me at all. I fully realize it has been hijacked by people who do. So, have other symbols, as well. Were those displaying that flag yelling anything? I haven't heard that they were, so I legitimately don't know... BTW, I don't believe it was appropriate either. They could have just as easily displayed sign displaying their displeasure (whatever it specifically was).
Yes, your example of a pedophile is understandable, but are you one of those who wants to prosecute people for thought crimes?
BTW, I feel the same way about Black Panther groups as well as the KKK.
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Whose fault is it, then?
I don't disagree with this at all, but my example was intended to illustrate that what is happening now is equivalent to believing EVERYONE who is in the vicinity of those who are yelling "inside job" are of the same mentality as those yelling and displaying their silly signs.
What is most troubling to me is that if this crap continues and monuments are defaced or destroyed it is going to lead to a blood bath eventually. There are numerous monuments and memorials to both sides where I live and as of yet no one bothers them. What if that changes and one of them is defaced or destroyed?
You keep posting that photo of the statue of Nathan Bedford Forrest. I suppose you know there is a movement in Memphis to remove his and his wife's grave from where they have been buried for about 150 years. I wonder how they'll get around the State and Federal Laws protecting grave sites? Do you realize what could happen if their graves are disturbed? Also, what might happen if that statue is defaced or destroyed?
Do you suspect that Dylan Roof might have his ultimate fantasy fulfilled?
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Aepervius
Non credunt, semper verificare
no , but as we all do during our life, we can infer their thought from their actions and statement. "but you can't read their mind" is a poor excuse to try to avoid that. Well no. We always judge people by their action.
You are 60 years too late. the great revival of the flag was in the second half of the 20th century, and mostly by racist organization, which were for segregation. Since then it has mostly be a cover flag for "we miss the good old time but can#t say it too loudly".
Who spoke about prosecution again ? From start to finish everybody (or the crushing majority) in that thread agrees that people should be free to wave the flag privately and cover their wall with that flag. They will be judged by their peers on their action, but still free to do it.
No, this thread has never been about private flag waving but about having a specific flag fly high at government property, especially considering the history of that specific flag and why it was flying in that place.
Yes, I understand the sentiment toward flying the flag on Government property and I have never disagreed with that. I do think it's in appropriate. If only it stopped there it would be no problem.
However, some of the rhetoric has been about public displays, as well specifically the display in OK City. Yes, I agree prosecution was the wrong word to use and I retract that.
What bothers me most is the venomous rhetoric used by many in this thread and the continued piling on toward those who dare to defend anything considered Southern except for barbecue, fried chicken and mint juleps.
BTW, I don't own one of those flags, never have, never will. I have no sentiment for it at all...NONE.
It's getting totally out of hand to speak of defacing or destroying monuments, which is occurring nationally. Perhaps that belongs in a different thread, so I'll leave it there...
I know that you saw the photo of the flag supporters in South Carolina. I think a significant and vocal number of the flag supporters *are* proud of their racism. I am all for venomous rhetoric about them.
English racists have tried to appropriate the cross of St George as a racist symbol, but that had a history outside racism and there *has* been a valid backlash against it. There is no history outside racism for the battle flag of the Confederacy. That symbol is tainted from its inception. Trying to rescue it is not worthwhile.
As an aside - in this or a related thread someone mentioned the Dukes of Hazard. I am not sure that a car with that flag on its roof, that plays Dixie, and is named after the most famous Confederate general was entirely innocent of Civil War connotations.
Also calling it "the war of Southern Independence" smacks of revisionism too. Maybe not as much as calling it the war of Northern Aggression.
tyr_13
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2008
- Messages
- 18,095
So the people driving slowly through 'black' neighborhoods with the Confederate flag and yelling, "White power!" weren't racists? What, were they performance artists?
Racists use that flag for their racism, and it is a logically and historically an appropriate symbol of that kind of racism. That's in no way a broad brush. I honestly don't know what you're talking about.
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Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Blues
Jazz
Country Music
Rockabilly
Rock & Roll
Spanish Moss
Magnolias
Paddle Wheelers on the Mississippi
Gospel Choirs
The Second Line (at NOLA jazz funerals)
Swimming in the Gulf - temperature like bathwater
Crayfishing, Crabbing, Catfishing
Sweet Tea
Sitting on the levies watching the river traffic
Proper pulled pork
The Mardi Gras
Sweltering summers when kids weren't just allowed but were expected to go without shirts.
Ceiling fans
The myth of Jean Lafitte
Catching a fish from the Cretaceous (alligator gars)
The absolute disaster a snowfall or freeze could create
Green tomato preserves
I don't need a confederate battle flag to remember any of that.
Jazz
Country Music
Rockabilly
Rock & Roll
Spanish Moss
Magnolias
Paddle Wheelers on the Mississippi
Gospel Choirs
The Second Line (at NOLA jazz funerals)
Swimming in the Gulf - temperature like bathwater
Crayfishing, Crabbing, Catfishing
Sweet Tea
Sitting on the levies watching the river traffic
Proper pulled pork
The Mardi Gras
Sweltering summers when kids weren't just allowed but were expected to go without shirts.
Ceiling fans
The myth of Jean Lafitte
Catching a fish from the Cretaceous (alligator gars)
The absolute disaster a snowfall or freeze could create
Green tomato preserves
I don't need a confederate battle flag to remember any of that.
I'd guess that a fair number of those are "Southern" as opposed to "Confederate" - is that right?
bruto
Penultimate Amazing
I think you're confusing the implication of the symbol with what should be done about it. I don't think many, if any, of us here are suggesting that the symbol should be barred from private use, or that people destroy what belongs to them. It does not follow from this, however, that one must be silent about what we believe those symbols mean. We can call people racists when they choose to exercise their right to display the flags of racism. I think the people who "dare to defend" the display of the Confederate flag are defending the symbol of racial intolerance and that, for the most part, they damn well know it, whatever lame apologetics they make about "tradition." Let them fly it if they think it represents something they consider important, but others are free to make of that choice what they will.
Foolmewunz
Grammar Resistance Leader, TLA Dictator
Well, they were "Confederate" for a brief period in the mid-1800s. But on the whole, yes. That's the claim of the flag-wavers... that it's Heritage, Not Hate, after all. My heritage as a southerner has nothing to do with the Confederacy. And that's the point many have been trying to make. There are dozens of things to associate with the Southern USA.
And it continues... There goes that broad brush again. Of course, I've seen some of the photos, obviously not all that haven't been posted here. Some of it was definitely racist and I condemn that. All of it wasn't, so I won't use that broad brush you and others like so much.
Of course, some of those people were racists, but not all of them were. That's my primary and only point to be made.
Regarding the War for Southern Independence comments. That is the most historically correct term in spite of your insistence to the contrary.
A Civil War is between factions of the same Country. The Southern States had seceded, so they were not a part of the same Country. They had declared their independence the same way the US did in the Revolutionary War. There was and is no Constitutional reason they couldn't separate. Consequently, Civil War is not a correct even tho' it is most frequently used.
I did not use the term War of Northern Aggression, you did. That is not a correct term either as the South fired the first shots against a US Military target and took some US prisoners, so technically the US was defending it's facilities and people, at least initially.
I keep pointing out again and again that the vast majority of the soldiers on both sides were not fighting for or against slavery no matter what you think or believe. That is also precisely why many folks don't see that flag as a racist symbol. The fact that it has been hijacked by deplorable racists elements that have nothing to do with what many people in the South feel seems to be totally lost in this entire discussion.
It's very telling that you think the Dukes of Hazard is about racism. That's a joke and it's on you and others who believe that. What's wrong with Dixie too? Do you think everything about the Southern part of the US is about racism?
I think I'll continue this discussion until I get bored. It's been very educational for me to see some of the venomous rhetoric being used about an entire portion of this Country and painting everyone who lives in it with the same broad brush. As I said earlier, I now have a better understanding of why many folks joined the Confederacy even tho' they had no slaves and didn't support the institution at all in any respects. Bye
You did not post a photograph and I missed the part about those jerks driving thru black neighborhoods shouting racist slogans. I wholly agree that is blatant racism and is not to be tolerated.
Give it a rest please. You have no clue what many of those folks at that rally are dealing with. In spite of what you say it is NOT all about racism. The flag is gone from the SC Statehouse, so let them rally and protest a bit and it will be over unless it keeps escalating.
However, I can assure you that if this continues to escalate and Memorials or Monuments are defaced or destroyed it is going to get very nasty indeed.
pgwenthold
Penultimate Amazing
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- Sep 19, 2001
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- 21,827
And even then, how many of those things you posted can be associated with "Southern USA" as opposed to even more localized regions? A few of them are pretty specific to New Orleans, for example. Or the Missippi river (paddle wheels are pretty characteristic of St Louis, which is not at all "South" and of course wasn't in the confederacy). So that's not a "southern" thing at all, it's a Mississippi river region heritage.
I've said this before, the ONLY thing the confederate states had in common in terms of heritage is slavery.
It is very telling that you don't know.
Meadmaker
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Interesting thing I didn't know about Nathan Bedford Forrest
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tures/general-nathan-bedford-fo_b_7734444.html
Summary: He renounced the Klan. His last act as leader of the Klan was to order it disbanded. He changed a lot of his racist beliefs before he died.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/john-a-tures/general-nathan-bedford-fo_b_7734444.html
Summary: He renounced the Klan. His last act as leader of the Klan was to order it disbanded. He changed a lot of his racist beliefs before he died.