Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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...that his conclusions came directly from the HSCA polygraph experts in the post below):

And what he really doesn't want you looking at is the part where he overrules the HSCA experts and comes to his own conclusion about how the polygraph evidence should have been interpreted instead. When I said I have formed my opinion about his methods, that's part of what I was talking about.
 
Is the theater designed to prop up his own illusions?

Yes, in my judgment.

Surely he wouldn't direct other people here to see the spanking he's getting and how badly he's embarrassing himself.

Why not? He told us about all the other forums he's frequented, and how all his critics there were "idiots." Why wouldn't he just lump us under the same category, direct people here, and then argue with those future spectators who don't interpret his experience here as anything but an unqualified success for him?

When your argument and its presentation are based on a colossal degree of denial and self-delusion, why can't you just throw a little but more of that on the pile?
 
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And what he really doesn't want you looking at is the part where he overrules the HSCA experts and comes to his own conclusion about how the polygraph evidence should have been interpreted instead. When I said I have formed my opinion about his methods, that's part of what I was talking about.

You do better evading the evidence, Jay. As I told Hank, the HSCA panel made it very clear that Ruby exhibited signs of deception when he was asked about conspiring with Oswald.

In fact, the reactions to the preceding question--(Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?)--showed the largest valid GSR reaction in test series No. 1. In addition, there is a constant suppression of breathing and a rise in blood pressure at the time of this crucial relevant question. From this test, it appeared to the panel that Ruby was possibly lying when answering "no" to the question, 'Did you assist Oswald in the assassination ?' This is contrary to Herndon's opinion that Ruby was truthful when answering that question."
 
Since Jay doesn't seem interested in answering the question in post 3601, perhaps some the rest of you will.

You guys did a great job of squelching my Zapruder segments, but you can't stop me from linking to articles where they appear, or at least not so far.
 
RH - I'll post in more detail later wrt to your misinterpretation of LCN mores, and why a prosecutor or journalist that didn't grow up in an environment where LCN was a living breathing threat might have a different pov on the subject than someone who did, but the Ruby polygraph isn't quite the smoking gun you may believe.

It's a common for people on the polygraph to have involuntary reactions to certain questions (sharp intake of breath, elevated heartbeat) that can be taken for deception - since you're married to the involuntary response as grounds for your theory I'd expect you to address that in Ruby's case.

PS - might want to revisit Michael Corbitt's bonafides as a LCN KA, especially in light of your reliance on hearsay evidence wrt Marcello making statements to individuals that were not LCN KA's - Corbitt's opinion on Giancana's death are much closer to the source than yours or mine.
 
Since Jay doesn't seem interested in answering the question in post 3601, perhaps some the rest of you will.

You guys did a great job of squelching my Zapruder segments, but you can't stop me from linking to articles where they appear, or at least not so far.

Sorry, but why do you think your GIFs were 'squelched'?

Far as I can see the mods stepped in because you continued to post the same images over and again, after mod-box warnings, about repeatedly posting information available elsewhere.
Or even post once then refer back to a post number?

If you could have cited a source and a link instead, would that not have been the thing to do when it was pointed out you were stepping outside the MA?
 
Since Jay doesn't seem interested in answering the question in post 3601, perhaps some the rest of you will.

You guys did a great job of squelching my Zapruder segments, but you can't stop me from linking to articles where they appear, or at least not so far.

The mods did that. Rules are rules.
 
As I told Hank, the HSCA panel made it very clear that Ruby exhibited signs of deception when he was asked about conspiring with Oswald.

No, that's not what you told me.

You said your claim below came directly from the conclusions of the HSCA panel of polygraph experts.

Please cite where they said that "Ruby... [was] practically begging the WC to take him to a safe place where he could talk, and finally having to settle for a polygraph, which he expected to fail, giving the WC a clue" as you claimed here: http://www.internationalskeptics.com...9#post10764159

You claimed that came directly from the HSCA panel: "It wasn't "minds" I was reading. It was the conclusions from the HSCA panel of polygraph experts."
http://www.internationalskeptics.com...8#post10765128

Now you are backpedaling furiously.


You also admitted this:
Of course I am not a polygraph operator, and even if I was, it wouldn't matter, since I don't have access to the printout on Ruby's test.


But you treat us to your opinions throughout, pretending they are the opinions of the polygraph experts.

For instance:
Because he showed blatant signs of deception when he denied knowing Oswald and being part of the conspiracy.

But you quote the polygraph experts as saying something else entirely:
"...it appeared to the panel that Ruby was possibly lying when answering "no" to the question, 'Did you assist Oswald in the assassination ?'

Not "definitely lying" or "blatantly deceptive".


You also claimed, in the same post:
Herndon was trying very lamely, to rationalize why he did not call Ruby's answers to these questions, out and out lies.

I couldn't find anything you quoted justifying that claim. The panel was much more circumspect, and only quibbled with the conclusion:
Herndon testified that Ruby's physiological response to this control question was recorded on the charts in terms of a "noticeable rise in his blood pressure." (127) The panel took issue with this conclusion because the rise in blood pressure occurred at least 7 seconds after Ruby answered. A response normally never occurs this long after the question. The typical reaction, would be in 1 or 2 seconds. Further, the panel noted that at the point of the rise in blood pressure, Herndon indicated on the chart (as "MF") that Ruby moved his feet. The panel believed that the rise in blood pressure most likely was caused by Ruby's movement and not his physiological reaction to the "control" question. This conclusion is corroborated by the fact that Ruby's breathing remained relaxed at the time of the rise in blood pressure, and the Galvanic skin response showed no reaction."

You quote the panel, then treat us to your interpretation of what they* really meant. But your interpretation is not evidence. And you're not qualified to render it in any case.

Hank
___________
* Ask again who "they" are.
 
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Maybe we should create a new term for the style of argument Robert's been demonstrating here. I seems to me to be more of a fringe loop than reset, as with so few breaks, there's been very little time for a true reset.

Perhaps fringe splenic splat & spam?
 
If I'm reading the above correctly, I think it stems from the fact that there's actually no evidence that supports claims of conspiracy. So when pressed to present the evidence for the claim they made, conspiracy theorists can't and instead they resort to quibbling over your words or being unable to follow the conversation thus far, and need to ask for clarification for some word or concept (Robert suddenly didn't know who "they" were a few posts back, when I asked Robert to "quote them" to support his claim that his conclusions came directly from the HSCA polygraph experts in the post below):

Not entirely sure about that. I have something in the region of 8 or 9 k posts. That adds nothing to my credibility.

I have been proven wrong right here more than once. Not an easy thing to swallow, but factually correct.

Everyone gets it wrong once in a while. The hard part is recognising when you are flat out wrong. Iwill not claim that is easy, but I will claim that CTists are unable to contemplate that they might be wrong,
 
I can't really add anything to HSienzant's outstanding work demolishing Robert's misrepresentations of Ruby's polygraph test, but I feel it needs to be added that by the time Ruby testified to Warren Commission and took the polygraph he was ◊◊◊◊◊◊* crazy. Ruby was obviously somewhat unstable even before shooting Oswald, but he apparently had some sort of mental break after being arrested and convicted.

Some details are here:http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ruby.htm

A question for Robert Harris: if you believe that Jack Ruby was part of the conspiracy to kill JFK and wanted to go to Washington to tell the truth, do you also accept his belief that there was a new Holocaust being carried out in the basement of the Dallas County Jail?
 
Not entirely sure about that. I have something in the region of 8 or 9 k posts. That adds nothing to my credibility.

I have been proven wrong right here more than once. Not an easy thing to swallow, but factually correct.

Everyone gets it wrong once in a while. The hard part is recognising when you are flat out wrong. Iwill not claim that is easy, but I will claim that CTists are unable to contemplate that they might be wrong,

I think we're driving toward the same intersection of facts and belief, but approaching it from different avenues.

You're talking about why it's so difficult to get a concession of being wrong from a conspiracy theorist, I'm talking about their methodology of avoidance of conceding they are wrong.

[armchair psychologist mode]
It all goes back, I think, to the initial decision to believe in a conspiracy. They read a book or saw the movie "JFK", and based on what was presented therein, they believed in a conspiracy, not doing any research to valid the claims there. Since the original decision was emotional, not based on factual evidence, it takes more than factual evidence to overturn that original emotional decision. So when presented with contrary evidence, they reject it based on the original decision that yes, there was a conspiracy, and therefore, anything that points away from a conspiracy must be wrong. That just follows from the original decision to accept a conspiracy.
[/armchair psychologist mode]

That's why it's both so hard for them to admit they are wrong about anything and why we see some really bizarre arguments in the later stages of the arguments. At that point they're fighting on multiple fronts with the 'barbarians at the gate' [unpleasant facts] and throwing anything handy at the advancing horde.

In my opinion.

Hank
 
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[armchair psychologist mode]
It all goes back, I think, to the initial decision to believe in a conspiracy. They read a book or saw the movie "JFK", and based on what was presented therein, they believed in a conspiracy, not doing any research to valid the claims there. Since the original decision was emotional, not based on factual evidence, it takes more than factual evidence to overturn that original emotional decision. So when presented with contrary evidence, they reject it based on the original decision that yes, there was a conspiracy, and therefore, anything that points away from a conspiracy must be wrong. That just follows from the original decision to accept a conspiracy.
[/armchair psychologist mode]

Humans put a lot more stock in how they feel about something than in how the thing actually is.
 
I was actually, going post that same link, which confirmed that he was there and involved in the search, but did you know that this obscure document is the ONLY REFERENCE TO ELLSWORTH in all the testimonies in the WC report?

Sorry, you fail to develop this into anything important. Since Ellsworth was apparently -- according to his own statements to Dick Russell I already quoted back to you -- there as a volunteer and on his own dime, and did so little of importance, why was it necessary for others to have mentioned him?

The fact he is mentioned only once speaks to how little he actually did, not to any cover-up (which I think is the innuendo you're going for).



Not only was he never called to testify, but the officers who were with him then, never mentioned his name. It doesn't appear in any of the testimonies.

More innuendo. Please develop this and tell us what he did that was so important that he *should* have been called to testify. Please develop this and show us the evidence the other officers all knew his name and deliberately concealed it. Otherwise, you're just grasping at straws to find something suspicious here.



Nor is there any mention of the name of the other ATF agent who was with him then.

Please develop this and show us the evidence the other ATF agent's name was known, and concealed. As you might remember, even Ellsworth said he believed he was the only federal agent in the building (remember he also said he discovered the sniper's nest -- inflating his own importance in both instances, which we know is common), and effectively denying the other ATF agent's presence on the sixth floor. Was Ellsworth also part of this cover-up to conceal the other ATF agent's name I think you're hinting at?

In other words, you're just desperately throwing innuendo around at this point because you have nothing else to fling at the facts.



Ellsworth never claimed to have seen a rifle on a lower floor. But we have no idea what he saw, or whether he made any attempt to identify it. He probably didn't witness the actual discovery of that rifle, and had no idea where it was found. He might have been on a different floor at the time.

Yes, as you admit, "we have no idea what he saw", which makes his recollections from 30 years after the fact meaningless, and leaves, as I said a while back, the contemporaneous memos and testimony as the best source of data. Despite your best attempt to build a conspiracy upon the sands of Ellsworth's three-decades-later recollection, it was bound to fail. Hearsay and recollection don't make a good foundation for the vast structure of this supposed conspiracy you conjecture.



He didn't mention that.

This is in reply to my claim that "If he only remembers one - and one hidden amongst boxes is all he mentions".

But he did mention a rifle amongst the boxes to Dick Russell as I quoted in post 3335. Your assertion above is incorrect. He did mention that.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?postid=10761622#post10761622

"If I recollect right, there was an elevator shaft or stairwell back in the northwest corner [it is, of course, a stairwell in that corner - Hank]. The gun was over near that, just south of it behind some boxes. I think the rifle was on the fourth floor. I have a vague recollection that the position it was in, and where it was found, led to the conjecture that as Oswald came down the stairs, he probably pitched it over behind these boxes."

That recollection sounds a whole lot like where the rifle was actually found on the sixth floor, and what Oswald would have done as he descended from the sixth floor. And Ellsworth remembered that conversation about what the assassin would have done (Oswald's name was not known to the investigators when the rifle was found). But according to you, he's actually talking about another rifle on another floor.



Wrong again. He never claimed that he saw the rifle on a lower floor. Hank, you are constantly misrepresenting me as well as Ellsworth. Please do your homework so we can discuss this stuff.

He did say he recalled conversation about the rifle being on another floor. It's unclear from his statement of his recollection where exactly he was when he had the conversation. It's unclear from his statement of his recollection what exactly he witnessed and what is hearsay.



No, I musn't. He never claimed to have seen ANY rifle that was hidden. This is getting tiresome, Hank.

I quoted him as telling Dick Russell the rifle was tossed amongst some boxes. If he was on the sixth floor for the photographing of the rifle amongst the boxes as the contemporaneous memo claims, it's apparent to me that his recollection of the rifle being on another floor amongst some boxes is simply wrong. He only mentions one rifle to Dick Russell and to the LaFontaines, not two.

If his memory is as accurate as you wish to believe, with him being a federal agent and working on the supposedly most important case of his lifetime, he should have recalled seeing one rifle on the sixth floor and either seeing or hearing about another rifle on a lower floor. But his recollections are totally devoid of any such information, and nowhere does he mention more than one rifle, and only one rifle, amongst some boxes.

Do you suppose he - gasp - *forgot* about the sixth floor rifle entirely, or - gasp - simply got the floor wrong in his recollection?

Neither choice makes your arguments any stronger. Either choice totally destroys your arguments about the import of Ellsworth's three-decade-later recollection to the LaFontaines, and how he, being a federal agent working on the biggest case of his life, wouldn't be likely to get any of this wrong.

Hank
__________

Homework assignment: Compare and contrast Robert's treatment of the lone mention of Ellsworth in one contemporaneous document with Robert's treatment of the lone mention of a rifle being found on another floor in the three-decade-later recollection of Ellsworth.
 
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Sorry, you fail to develop this into anything important.

It is a waste of time to continue expressing your personal, subjective opinion about the value of this man's statements. I have stated my case, knowing that you would attack him, just as you attack any witness who disagrees with you.

Let's talk about my case for conspiracy. One of my arguments is that SA Roy Kellerman exhibited visible, textbook startle reactions. Do you see what you believe, are errors in my descriptions of those reactions, in the presentation link in post 3601?
 
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We both know they never did reach that conclusion. We both know that conclusion is entirely yours, woven from whole cloth, with no support in the experts conclusions whatsover. You're just citing the HSCA conclusions so you can argue the veneer of expertise stems from the HSCA panel, not yourself. But the claims you made are all yours, not the HSCA experts, and you don't get to pretend otherwise.

Contrary to Harris' conveniently selective memory, this is substantially identical to the answer I gave him on this same point, according to the same rationale. In the larger sense, this is how I observe him to treat nearly all the experts he cites: as a "veneer of expertise" over what is quite obviously Harris' own opinions and judgments. As such, when I said I have reached my conclusion regarding Harris' methods, this is partly what I'm talking about. He either does not know or chooses not to respect the difference between expert opinion and his lay opinion.
 
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