Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[acbytesla]

I agree that it is rare but it is at least not unknown. When I first heard, in passing about the case, I though Amanda and Meredeth may have gotten into a fight and that it was a solid case. Those are reasonably common.

Yes, murders are probably 90 percent where the 2 people know each other. So overall, there would be a higher probability that Amanda because she knew Meredith, you would think there would be a higher probability of that then the burglar scenario. But the odds dramatically shift when you add in the other factors such as Amanda being a woman. Now the odds are about even. Then of course Amanda had known Meredith for only 42 days. Now, the burglar rapist scenario is much more probable. Add in that Amanda had never committed a crime in her life, that she was very successful in her life, now she starts looking extremely unlikely. Then you add in that Raffaele, another very successful student and wealthy to boot and the odds start climbing to lottery proportions. Add in Rudy, the language and cultural issues...well you get the drift. It's too bad Vixen won't.

Oh well.

 

[Vixen]

Steve Moore explains that this is an interrogation technique designed for brainwashing. straight interrogation for several days on end without sleep can actually result in death. Allowing some sleep in between is thought to be more effective in breaking the captives and getting them to believe what the handlers wish to implant.

So the allegation of 53 hours of "continuous interrogation" amounting to "psychological torture", is indeed an accurate description of what Amanda Knox was subjected to by the Italian police, imo.

Really? Please cite the five-day interrogation date range that led to Amanda accusing Patrick.

 

[Grinder]

Yes, murders are probably 90 percent where the 2 people know each other. So overall, there would be a higher probability that Amanda because she knew Meredith, you would think there would be a higher probability of that then the burglar scenario. But the odds dramatically shift when you add in the other factors such as Amanda being a woman. Now the odds are about even. Then of course Amanda had known Meredith for only 42 days. Now, the burglar rapist scenario is much more probable. Add in that Amanda had never committed a crime in her life, that she was very successful in her life, now she starts looking extremely unlikely. Then you add in that Raffaele, another very successful student and wealthy to boot and the odds start climbing to lottery proportions. Add in Rudy, the language and cultural issues...well you get the drift. It's too bad Vixen won't.

Oh well.

Tesla you've done this for years. Just because the probability is low doesn't really mean anything. The fact that Raf is from a well off family probably increases the odds that he would be involved in a senseless crime.

Leopold and Loeb.

Even if they would be out there on the bell curve it doesn't eliminate them.

What is missing is a scenario that fits with the known times. I'd of course get rid of Curatolo and Nara because the former obviously didn't see them then or any other night and Nara's testimony doesn't fit any scenario of three killers and those killers running away right after the scream.

The broken down car people and the tow truck squeeze the time even more. If Lalli effed up the stomach/duodenum analysis he couldn't have effed up the stomach contents amount which is in line with a death before the odd phone calls.

Our PGP here hasn't addressed a key issue: Is there another case where a murder knife produced DNA of the victim but tested negative for blood?

So we are left with missing finger prints, fantasy shoes, missing bloody clothes, and non-blood footprints that don't match anyone.

Vixen please come-up with a scenario including times and actions that might have some chance of fitting know evidence.

 

[Grinder]

Really? Please cite the five-day interrogation date range that led to Amanda accusing Patrick.

How many hours was she with the police? It doesn't really matter does it? They don't need 50 hours to break someone do they?

So it was ten hours of interviews and 2 hours of interrogations. How about that?

Since you enjoy this so much, please explain why the police questioned her until she buckled? And explain why they were convinced what she told them was correct?

 

[Vixen]

Yes, murders are probably 90 percent where the 2 people know each other. So overall, there would be a higher probability that Amanda because she knew Meredith, you would think there would be a higher probability of that then the burglar scenario. But the odds dramatically shift when you add in the other factors such as Amanda being a woman. Now the odds are about even. Then of course Amanda had known Meredith for only 42 days. Now, the burglar rapist scenario is much more probable. Add in that Amanda had never committed a crime in her life, that she was very successful in her life, now she starts looking extremely unlikely. Then you add in that Raffaele, another very successful student and wealthy to boot and the odds start climbing to lottery proportions. Add in Rudy, the language and cultural issues...well you get the drift. It's too bad Vixen won't.

Oh well.

Leopold and Loeb had it all, yet kidnapped and killed a young boy for fun.

Then there's smart, good-looking Ted Bundy.

Then there was Patricia Keriwinkle (_sp?) and the Atkins (_sp?) woman.

Then there was Draper and Kovacs(_sp?) in the totally pointless Scream murders.

Then there was Kebold and Harris.

Then there was Mary Bell (10) and Norma Bell (13).

There was Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr, who it is believed helped him dispose of the bodies and clean up.


Logical fallacy to say you can't be a murderer if you have no convictions.

 

[Vixen]

How many hours was she with the police? It doesn't really matter does it? They don't need 50 hours to break someone do they?

So it was ten hours of interviews and 2 hours of interrogations. How about that?

Since you enjoy this so much, please explain why the police questioned her until she buckled? And explain why they were convinced what she told them was correct?

Think about it. Mez' body was found 2 Nov 2007. 5th Nov 2007 Amanda names Patrick within three hours of strolling into the questura, when she could have been asleep in bed.

So, please advise when the five-day 53 hour torture happened, "with the police slapping her every time she gave the wrong answer" (Moore).

Or will you confirm this allegation is completely and utterly fraudulent.

 

[Bill Williams]

Think about it. Mez' body was found 2 Nov 2007. 5th Nov 2007 Amanda names Patrick within three hours of strolling into the questura, when she could have been asleep in bed.

So, please advise when the five-day 53 hour torture happened, "with the police slapping her every time she gave the wrong answer" (Moore).

Or will you confirm this allegation is completely and utterly fraudulent.

Vixen - you have made dozens of fraudulent claims, many with no cite and many with a cite which actually proves the claim you made to be wrong.

 

[Grinder]

Think about it. Mez' body was found 2 Nov 2007. 5th Nov 2007 Amanda names Patrick within three hours of strolling into the questura, when she could have been asleep in bed.

So, please advise when the five-day 53 hour torture happened, "with the police slapping her every time she gave the wrong answer" (Moore).

Or will you confirm this allegation is completely and utterly fraudulent.

I never bought the 53 hours Bremner was pushing. So what? The FOA probably wasn't advised or took the advice of Marriott and went off on their hyperbole but that doesn't change the fact that the police pressed her until she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct - but it wasn't correct. Doesn't that bother you?

I'm not a fan of hyperbole from either side.

 

[Bill Williams]

How many hours was she with the police? It doesn't really matter does it? They don't need 50 hours to break someone do they?

So it was ten hours of interviews and 2 hours of interrogations. How about that?

Since you enjoy this so much, please explain why the police questioned her until she buckled? And explain why they were convinced what she told them was correct?

This is the Achilles Heel of the line of thought guilters engage in. Mignini explained not so much "why" he believed Amanda's coerced claim, but it is enough to know that this is what he claimed. He claimed that Lumumba was arrested solely on Knox's say so. Someone he regarded as a liar and an actress.

 

[RoseMontague]

I never bought the 53 hours Bremner was pushing. So what? The FOA probably wasn't advised or took the advice of Marriott and went off on their hyperbole but that doesn't change the fact that the police pressed her until she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct - but it wasn't correct. Doesn't that bother you?

I'm not a fan of hyperbole from either side.

The dates and times are listed in Amanda's first appeal, within the very first few pages, IIRC. My memory of that has it at around 40 hours total but I don't have time to look for it tonight.

 

[Grinder]

The dates and times are listed in Amanda's first appeal, within the very first few pages, IIRC. My memory of that has it at around 40 hours total but I don't have time to look for it tonight.

Yes I remember you did great work on this and detailed even more than 40 hours she was with the police.

Nice "to see" you!

 

[Desert Fox]

Yes, murders are probably 90 percent where the 2 people know each other. So overall, there would be a higher probability that Amanda because she knew Meredith, you would think there would be a higher probability of that then the burglar scenario. But the odds dramatically shift when you add in the other factors such as Amanda being a woman. Now the odds are about even. Then of course Amanda had known Meredith for only 42 days. Now, the burglar rapist scenario is much more probable. Add in that Amanda had never committed a crime in her life, that she was very successful in her life, now she starts looking extremely unlikely. Then you add in that Raffaele, another very successful student and wealthy to boot and the odds start climbing to lottery proportions. Add in Rudy, the language and cultural issues...well you get the drift. It's too bad Vixen won't.

Oh well.

I don't really like arguing odds. . . .Just simply that there is no evidence of her committing the crime.

 

[acbytesla]

Tesla you've done this for years. Just because the probability is low doesn't really mean anything. The fact that Raf is from a well off family probably increases the odds that he would be involved in a senseless crime.

Leopold and Loeb.

Even if they would be out there on the bell curve it doesn't eliminate them.

What is missing is a scenario that fits with the known times. I'd of course get rid of Curatolo and Nara because the former obviously didn't see them then or any other night and Nara's testimony doesn't fit any scenario of three killers and those killers running away right after the scream.

The broken down car people and the tow truck squeeze the time even more. If Lalli effed up the stomach/duodenum analysis he couldn't have effed up the stomach contents amount which is in line with a death before the odd phone calls.

Our PGP here hasn't addressed a key issue: Is there another case where a murder knife produced DNA of the victim but tested negative for blood?

So we are left with missing finger prints, fantasy shoes, missing bloody clothes, and non-blood footprints that don't match anyone.

Vixen please come-up with a scenario including times and actions that might have some chance of fitting know evidence.

You're right and you're wrong Grinder. I could have murdered Meredith. I cannot prove my whereabouts on November 1st 2007, so maybe I did it. I cannot be eliminated as a suspect, so maybe they should consider me? There is as much chance of me or Vixen as the triumvirate of the 3 strangers that don't speak the same language.

While I agree that anything is possible such as our sun going Supernova tomorrow. That cannot be eliminated from the list of possibilities. But hey, long shots do occasionally come in...right?

But in the end,I agree, it is the evidence that eliminates them. It is the digestion, Raffaele's computer and the total lack of credible evidence.

If there was proof that these 3 did it... well maybe we'll all be obliterated by that supernova.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yes, I agree, the regimen of psychological manipulation & torture is closer to 82 hrs

Originally Posted by carbonjam72
Steve Moore explains that this is an interrogation technique designed for brainwashing. straight interrogation for several days on end without sleep can actually result in death. Allowing some sleep in between is thought to be more effective in breaking the captives and getting them to believe what the handlers wish to implant.

So the allegation of 53 hours of "continuous interrogation" amounting to "psychological torture", is indeed an accurate description of what Amanda Knox was subjected to by the Italian police, imo.

Really? Please cite the five-day interrogation date range that led to Amanda accusing Patrick.

Yes, the entire brain washing program, endured by Amanda Knox and Raf, and perpetrated by Italian police would technically run from the discovery of the corpse at about 1-1:30 PM on Nov 2nd through to when amanda first broke, in the early morning Nov 6th during the illegal overnight supposedly unrecorded interrogations. This is a period of roughly 82 hours straight of psychological pressure, sleep deprivation, psychological manipulation and psychological torture.

This regime was then followed by solitary confinement, and isolation from attorneys and visitors for another few days.

Both Amanda and Raf's books both describe the psychological confusion and dissociation brought on by this deliberate psychological torture as taking about 2 weeks to actually wear off and regain their normal senses.

The fact that both Amanda and Raf, two normal healthy young adults both took about 2 weeks to recover from the effects of this trauma provides a greater level of validity to attribution of dissociation to this specific abusive regimen of mistreatment applied to both victims.

It shows a methodology was applied, and the mental damage done was approximately equally disorienting to both victims.

Other psychological damage from extended captivity in prison and in particular, solitary confinement, are apparent in both victims as well.

I guess this is why I find the guilter narrative so offensive. The lack of empathy, and even a kind of sadistic glee they show towards two obvious victims, displays to me a serious deformity in their own mental health.

 

[christianahannah]

The dates and times are listed in Amanda's first appeal, within the very first few pages, IIRC. My memory of that has it at around 40 hours total but I don't have time to look for it tonight.

From pages 12-13 of Amanda's first appeal the total is 53 hours but may have been revised on later appeals or this 53 hours may be inclusive of time spent in the waiting area.

Amanda Knox è stata sottoposta ad esame ed attività investigative e tra il 2 e il 6 novembre 2007, fino al momento del fermo, ha fornito sommarie informazioni e risposto a domande della A.G. come segue:

2 novembre 2007, ore 15.30 VENERDI’: totale ore …………..
12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni fino alle 3.00 am del 3 novembre 2007

3 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 SABATO totale ore ………………
8,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura.
Testimoni indicano fino alle 22,00.

4 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 DOMENICA: totale ore ………….
12,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, ed accesso alla villetta di Via
della Pergola dalle ore 14.45 alle ore 21. Telefonata di Amanda alla zia dice 5 ore
di interrogatorio in questura

5/6 novembre 2007, ore 01.45 LUNEDI’/MARTEDI’: totale ore ……..
5,00
Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox inizio alle ore 22.00 del 5
novembre 2009.

6 novembre 2007, ore 05.45 MARTEDI’: totale ore ……………….
3,45
Verbale di “spontanee dichiarazioni” della Knox con successivo breve
memoriale. Dalle ore 1,45 alle 5,45 e memoriale alle ore 14,00.

In 5 giorni la Knox è stata sentita per un totale di circa 53,45 h.

 

[Ken Dine]

I never bought the 53 hours Bremner was pushing. So what? The FOA probably wasn't advised or took the advice of Marriott and went off on their hyperbole but that doesn't change the fact that the police pressed her until she buckled and told them what they knew to be correct - but it wasn't correct. Doesn't that bother you?

I'm not a fan of hyperbole from either side.

Open mouth, insert foot:

Amanda had been with the Police for 53.5 hours by the time she wrote her third statement on November 6.

Times and dates totaling 53.5 hours are taken from the 2010 Knox appeal document. The end time is based on the third statement [Memoriale #1] because that’s the one the prosecution was allowed to use for the murder charge.

The Italian Supreme Court ruled the 1:45am and 5:45am statements inadmissible for Charge A. The 5:45 am statement could be used as evidence for Charge F – The Calunnia only.

Amanda Knox è stata sottoposta ad esame ed attività investigative e tra il 2 e il 6 novembre 2007, fino al momento del fermo, ha fornito sommarie informazioni e risposto a domande della A.G. come segue:
2 novembre 2007, ore 15.30 VENERDI’: totale ore ………….. 12,00


Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura. Testimoni fino alle 3.00 am del 3 novembre 2007
3 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 SABATO totale ore ……………… 8,00


Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, senza indicazione della chiusura. Testimoni indicano fino alle 22,00.
4 novembre 2007, ore 14.45 DOMENICA: totale ore …………. 12,00


Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox, ed accesso alla villetta di Via della Pergola dalle ore 14.45 alle ore 21. Telefonata di Amanda alla zia dice 5 ore di interrogatorio in questura
5/6 novembre 2007, ore 01.45 LUNEDI’/MARTEDI’: totale ore ……..5,00


Verbale di sommarie informazioni della Knox inizio alle ore 22.00 del 5 novembre 2009.
6 novembre 2007, ore 05.45 MARTEDI’: totale ore ……………….3,45


Verbale di “spontanee dichiarazioni” della Knox con successivo breve memoriale. Dalle ore 1,45 alle 5,45 e memoriale alle ore 14,00.
In 5 giorni la Knox è stata sentita per un totale di circa 53,45 h. Per chiarezza di esposizione si riassume la tempistica delle indagini nei confronti della Knox relativa ai cruciali giorni 5, 6 novembre 2007:

Total: 53.45 hours

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/the-interrogation/

Leading up to that Nov 6th interrogation, Amanda was already very fatigued, in shock, and clearly she very frightened over what happened to Meredith:

Amanda Knox was showing signs of fatigue and exhaustion leading into the interrogation.

Witness: Interpreter Aida Colantone – 4.00pm November 4, 2007

At a certain moment, I don’t know if I had gone away for a moment to speak with someone from the Flying Squad or something, in passing that room, returning to this room where I remember [Amanda] was alone, it was only her, and I was practically …I understood that this girl was truly fatigued, exhausted, she was tired because I practically found her, she was draped on a seat with her head reclined toward the wall, white in the face, with her eyes closed, white, I was very struck by her pallor and I understood that this girl was in bad shape.

~Transcript March 13, 2008 (page 88-89)

 

[RWVBWL]

Open mouth, insert foot!

Good stuff Ken Dine and Christianahannah,
I learned something today, once again!

53 hours!

Hard to believe that Miss Knox even went to class
on that Monday morning before her Mom was due to arrive the next day, which the cops knew about...

Where was Rudy Guede at this time,
on the run from all that red,
in Germany?

 

[Ken Dine]

Vixen will basically say it doesn't have to make sense or be logical.

She'll compare Amanda and Raffaele to Joanna Denney and Gary Strech. But they don't compare to Amanda and Raffaele. Amanda and Raffaele both come from loving families, both had highly successful scholastic backgrounds. Joanna Dennehy was estranged from her family and left home when she was 15. She was crazy and bragged to everyone about her killings. Gary Stretch was a 7 foot 3 inch dropout and career burglar.

Nobody but Vixen would compare them to each other but a guilter like Vixen. What can you say?

I'm not convinced that Vixen is a 'SHE' ...but in the oft chance he is a she, perhaps some good ol' fashioned British BEEF-cake will soften her edges:

Brighton Swimming Club in 1863:

For those of you who prefer your Brits a tad more macho, I got that too.

British SAS back from a 3-month patrol of North Africa in 1943:

http://atchuup.com/rare-historical-photos/

 

[Strozzi]

I'm not convinced that Vixen is a 'SHE' ...but in the oft chance he is a she, perhaps some good ol' fashioned British BEEF-cake will soften her edges:

Brighton Swimming Club in 1863:
[qimg]http://cdn.atchuup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/h45.jpg[/qimg]


For those of you who prefer your Brits a tad more macho, I got that too.

British SAS back from a 3-month patrol of North Africa in 1943:
[qimg]http://cdn.atchuup.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/h20.jpg[/qimg]

http://atchuup.com/rare-historical-photos/

I don't mean to digress but while I wait for Vixen to tweak us again I will ask if the SAS are so macho, how come they are wearing short pants? I wore short pants like that in kindergarten in Cambridge, England. I wore long pants to the first grade in Chicago, where men were manly.

 

[Ken Dine]

I don't mean to digress but while I wait for Vixen to tweak us again I will ask if the SAS are so macho, how come they are wearing short pants? I wore short pants like that in kindergarten in Cambridge, England. I wore long pants to the first grade in Chicago, where men were manly.

Well, at least the SAS hombres weren't wearing dresses (kilts).


BTW - shorts and flip-flops are the uniform of the day here in California (I only wear long pants and shoes when I go out to dinner).

The fashion statement that had me concerned the most were those Brighton Beach Boyz in their speedos and top hats! Where are the fashion police when you need them?

One last old British photo -- Winston emerging from the surf:

Why do all newborn babies look exactly like Winston?