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Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

Bailout money is not debt. It is money available to draw on (under conditions), at which point it does become debt.

Yes, 200b of it.

Debt write-offs decreased debt.

Yes, 100b of it.

If it's gone up it's because a Greek deficit needs funding.

Is that the "recapitalization of Greek banks" thing then?

Absolute debt didn't increase from the bailout.

How much debt did the bailout program add? How much debt did the bailout program remove?
 
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Why do you hate the EU so much?

And the problem with Podemos is not lack of experience;it;s that their basic economic poliicies are wackjob. If they win, look for business to exit Spain at a speed that will make your head spin.

I could not agree more. Their platform for the upcoming elections, like most parties conceived as solutions before thought comes into play, it is all wishful thinking, and a mish-mash to appeal to an overly broad membership. Ideals are at best possible guidelines, not a substitute for policy.

You can't spend more then you take in for long periods of time without bad things happening. You can't keep rasing taxes on "the rich" forever without killing the goose that lays the Golden Eggs. Two basic economic facts of life that many on the Left just cannot accept.

This is true, but not very analytical. Net corporate rates, what is actually paid, was hovering around 14+some odd percent in the US, last I looked. The contrasts with, say, Japan's alternate minimum tax of 20%, which all companies must pay, even those earning most income abroad.* Unearned income, or capital gains, could be more slanted toward the growth that 'those with the grit and the cash' claim would be the result of their retaining high earnings after tax, such as increasing the short-term time limit from one to three years on capital gains (don't have a link, but this is the idea of one wealthy trader recently quoted in the press). This measure would tend to increase focus on the viability and nature of management plans, a good thing.

What does get me about left or right these days, in reference to Spain but probably applicable anywhere, is the degree to which parties and voters associate corruption with partisan ideologies, and are therefore satisfied in arguing for mere tortilla flips in power as a solution. As if a change in a ruling party, or entire economic system for that matter, would do away with basic human nature.

*Not to be confused with the US AMT, a different story that AFAIK doesn't address overseas profits.
 
Since when is neoliberal "left-wing"?

Changing the subject? :rolleyes:

I'm sorry, how exactly does that photo prove an agreement among the protesters to "keep a larger average distance so as to appear a bigger protest"?

Oh! An agreement! No, with such scale the contracts look too little for us to read the fine printing :rolleyes:

It's enough to say I know it from the inside. I lived briefly in Madrid, and during years my office in Buenos Aires was on an avenue were lots of protests march by. I have heard and seen organizers getting the flock evenly distributed. They and today's marches in Athens look the same. They can teach Hollywood people how to manage a limited number of extras to make them look like they're a lot.
 
Deal passed parliamentary vote.


What a gigantic *************** this is. An unholy coalition getting the deal passed with a nod and a wink and fingers of both hands firmly crossed. And Tsipras stating boldly that he hates the deal and considers it "irrational" - just the think to say to inspire even less trust and confidence from lenders and Eurozone leaders.

And now let's enjoy the meltdown as Greece goes through the pathetic and futile motions of getting together a EUR50bn pot of public assets to hand over for privatisation. Hell, Greece doesn't even have a functioning land registry, let alone the ability to ringfence public assets in a legally-binding sense. The whole thing is a fiasco. As is the hideous irony of Greece taking emergency bail-out money to (in part) fund the servicing of its loans to those from whom it's basically taking the emergency bailout money.

There is a 100% certainty that this is all going to go down the pan, with the pain, suffering and humiliation far worse for Greece (and, ironically, for everyone else involved) than it would been had everyone bitten the bullet months ago and put in place a sensible mechanism for the transition of Greece out of the Euro to a devalued New Drachma. In 50 years, historians and economists will look back on these events and wonder how and why so many stupefyingly bad decisions were taken over such a prolonged period.
 
In 50 years, historians and economists will look back on these events and wonder how and why so many stupefyingly bad decisions were taken over such a prolonged period.

...and they won't be able to blame anyone in particular. That explains why.

Now Grexit continues the painful slow way (unless some provincial parliament says a rotund "Oxi" and do everybody a favour turning it into chaotic Grexit, which is much much better).
 
Changing the subject? :rolleyes:

Yes you are, the only question is why. You claimed that participants in left-wing protests deliberately keep larger average distance to appear to be with more. I pointed out how my experience of being part of left-wing protests challenges that bizarre claim. You then change the subject to saying that you don't believe me having been inside neo-liberal protests. Why would you do that?

Oh! An agreement!

Either that or they all independently and individually do so, to account for your claim.

It's enough to say I know it from the inside.

Of course you do :rolleyes:

Besides, why are you so hung up on the size of the protest? It doesn't seem particularly large, it was a nice picture of it though.
 
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And now let's enjoy the meltdown as Greece goes through the pathetic and futile motions of getting together a EUR50bn pot of public assets to hand over for privatisation.

picture.php


In 50 years, historians and economists will look back on these events and wonder how and why so many stupefyingly bad decisions were taken over such a prolonged period.

It's called capitalism.
 
It's called capitalism.


Au contraire. A decent application of modified free-market capitalism would have resulted in Greece (and probably also Portugal) leaving the Euro years ago, devaluing to a new national currency and declaring effective national bankruptcy in the process. And even before that, free-market capitalism would never have allowed the situation to evolve where irresponsible nation states could borrow indiscriminately while being essentially protected by the implicit guarantee of the ECB and the Eurozone.

The main reason why this has all got so horrifically messy and protracted is - ironically - because certain socialist ideals have been clumsily welded onto the European project, and because federal socialism has blinded key political and economic decision-makers to the stark reality of the situation. Some of them have become far more concerned about preserving a cherished (but fatally flawed) political concept than the pragmatic realpolitik of the situation.
 
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Au contraire.

I don't think so.

A decent application of modified free-market capitalism

I'm not talking about capitalism the fairy tale but capitalism as it exists, you know with a pseudo-fascist "Trojka" representing the European gambling corporations, for lack of a better term, against the European population (in this case particularly the Greek one).
 
Yes you are, the only question is why. You claimed that participants in left-wing protests deliberately keep larger average distance to appear to be with more. I pointed out how my experience of being part of left-wing protests challenges that bizarre claim. You then change the subject to saying that you don't believe me having been inside neo-liberal protests. Why would you do that?

Because by definition you have nothing to compare with, and that's indeed the subject, not the "changed" subject. You basically claim that having being part of a left-wing protest makes you a connoisseur about any-wing any-country any-circumstance protests and the only experience you have is "normal" and not something "bizarrely" different. That's BS to the potency of nine.

Either that or they all independently and individually do so, to account for your claim.

Your dichotomy leaves reality aside, for instance, that people do what those surrounding them do. The most simple "cattle" control I've seen regularly in left-wingy manifestations in some dude in the middle of the column suddenly stopping and giving a small step backwards. That surprises the people surrounding him and their paces slow down. They don't have to agree about anything. They are not even aware of that. They are just human.

I don't know if you are just selling or you just bought that people gathers spontaneously and do things exercising their freedom. And then we see them singing "Heigh ho! heigh ho!" like the dwarfs of Snow White. Yes, they marched happily and singing and it happened to be, alakazam! they had some Molotov cocktails in their hands.

Of course you do :rolleyes:

Besides, why are you so hung up on the size of the protest? It doesn't seem particularly large, it was a nice picture of it though.

You simply didn't like me commenting anything about that, and you started this interchange I follow just to practice my English. English language always interests me.
 
Just because neo-liberals prefer to demonstrate goose-stepping in formation doesn't mean there's a conspiracy behind the disorderly chaos of left-wing demonstrations.
 

Dogfight between Turkish and Greek jets
occurred after Turkish incursion in Greek airspace.

It appears to be a common occurrence. Two incidents in early June:

http://www.ekathimerini.com/197490/article/ekathimerini/news/turkish-jets-violate-greek-air-space
http://www.ekathimerini.com/197784/...fighter-jets-violate-greek-national-air-space

My guess is that Edrogan needs an external foe for his government to continue to function. Turks aren't stupid and have apparently had it with his attempts to take over their country.

McHrozni
 
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