Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

Remember, Mignini is crazy

Ah but most pro-guilt commentators don't appear to even realise - far less actually understand - this part of the police/PM choreography. The reason why Knox and Sollecito were denied access to legal counsel from the moment they entered the police HQ on 5th November until literally moments before their first court appearance on 8th November is that Mignini improperly (and very probably unlawfully) abused a section of the criminal code that is clearly designed to be only applicable in extraordinary circumstances where providing an arrested person with access to counsel might be significantly detrimental to justice (e.g. Mafia suspects with crooked lawyers using those lawyers to intimidate witnesses or communicate messages to other arrested persons).
And of course the pliant judges made no more than a token effort to get Mignini to justify his abuse of this exceptional clause (he never even lodged a written reasoning, as mandated). It's another huge red flag against Mignini and his culpability in this sorry saga, and I suspect it will potentially be of great interest to the ECHR.

Doug Preston & Mario Spezi report in their book, The Monster of Florence, that Mignini also used this secrecy law to hide the identity of a witness, who was an associate of the psychic medium Gabriella Carlizzi, providing secret testimony concerning Mario Spezi, apparently used against both Spezi and in the Calamandrei case where it was read aloud for the first time. Carlizzi's associate provided an entirely fictional life history of Mario Spezi attempting to frame him as the actual Monster of Florence serial killer, or as ebing among the satanic-masonic cult Mignini and Giuttari had theorized was responsible for the Narducci killings, and as related to the MOF killings.

It may be the case that Mignini, as Paul Ciolino put it, "believes his own lies", and uses the prtext of his theory of a satanic-masonic-murder-orgy cult as a pretext for invoking the anti-mafia/terrorism statutes.

The point though, is that Mignini doesn't seem to randomly abuse the laws. I think its essential to remember that all of Mignini's official actions take place in the context of his absolutely manifest mental illness.

 

[carbonjam72]

OK I see where you are coming from. You mean the sweatshirt. So I'll give you that the sweatshirt had been left lying around for six weeks. That the Italian forensic scientists failed to collect the clothes the victim had been wearing but rolled up the sweat shirt and stuffed it in a laundry basket I'll accept. This certainly means it was at risk of contamination. So happy to exclude this. That leaves the bloody handprint of Guede - no concerns about DNA contamination there and it has a time print.

This so much convinces me that the forensic science was competently performed.

The sweatshirt (and I don't have the lab data in front of me), had Rudy's traces on it in quantity. I believe they found his fingerprints on it in Meredith's wet bood, as well as DNA?

So the sweatshirt seems to be solid evidence of Rudy there at the time of the crime. Although the treatment and collection of it means it may be susceptible to further contamination, by remaining uncollected and exposed to the environment and then tossed in a laundry hamper, it wouldn't be reasonable to exclude it from evidence against Rudy a matter of course, imo.

Where as the bra clasp evidence against Raf is of a whole other category.

First, the quantity and validity of the result are in question, as Chris has pointed out, partial mixed profiles are difficult for labs to get right, even when procedures are properly followed.

More importantly and to the point, there is no other evidence of Raf, or anyone else in the room. No other foot prints in wet blood, just Rudy's footprints. All other evidence infers the presence of only Rudy in the room. A simple finding of Raf's DNA in the murder room, absent any other evidence, is inconsistent with Raf's presence in the room at the time of the crime, and his participation in that bloody violent assault.
The evidence against Rudy isn't just DNA, its DNA in conjunction with extensive cooberating physical evidence, like footprints in blood, palmprints in blood, fingerprints in blood, DNA, (and maybe more?). Plus Rudy's admissions, partial admissions, and repeatedly exposed lies.

DNA evidence alone (in the murder room) would not be sufficient evidence to convict Amanda and/or Raf, or anyone else, just by itself, and certainly not when there is so much evidence of only Rudy Guede in the room when the crime occurred. Plus, their alibis were never seriously challenged.

There is no, and never was any case against amanda and Raf, imo.

 

[carbonjam72]

Yes, it was torture for 53 hours

You originally claimed that Amanda Knox had said that she had been tortured and interrogated non-stop for 53 hours.

You are now claiming that someone other than Knox claiming she was interrogated for 53 hours over five days means the same as your original claim. So no attribution to Knox? No claim of torture? No claim of non-stop?

Yes 53 hours over five days must be intermittent - unless we are on Jupiter.

I have never made any claims about duration of interviews. I think this is pretty irrelevant. It really makes no difference whether she was interviewed for five or fifty hours. The issue is the denial of access to a lawyer. Mignini actively deprived her of access to a lawyer for two days after her arrest, instead of allowing immediate access to counsel.

Steve Moore explains that this is an interrogation technique designed for brainwashing. straight interrogation for several days on end without sleep can actually result in death. Allowing some sleep in between is thought to be more effective in breaking the captives and getting them to believe what the handlers wish to implant.

So the allegation of 53 hours of "continuous interrogation" amounting to "psychological torture", is indeed an accurate description of what Amanda Knox was subjected to by the Italian police, imo.

 

[Vixen]

Yet, you believe Rudy's story about Meredith disliking Amanda and the 300 Euros.

It has been consistently reported by several.

Why do you think Mez pointedly ignored Amanda's desperate text messages at Halloween.

"Do you know how it feels to be lonesome?" ~ Gram Parsons

 

[carbonjam72]

These are the words of someone who has either lost touch with reason or is, as I suspect, here to cause a ruckus.

Having read past comments posted on PMF regarding this forum, it seems reasonable to believe there could be an incentive in it for Vixen. People who venture here and do this kind of thing are praised. They see value in kicking the proverbial hornets nest. It is a tactic they seem to believe has the effect of morally defeating the opposition.

Yes, I agree that's what's going on here. The arguments don't make sense, because they aren't made to be serious. Vixen is just doing, as the english say, "taking a piss".

Every backwards distraction that generates a result or serious effort to refute, is just one more giggle.

The only smart answer, is to simply ignore the bait. It requires group cohesion, I'm afraid. Can we do it?

I will. I'm officially done with that poster.

 

[Dopre]

Doug Preston & Mario Spezi report in their book, The Monster of Florence, that Mignini also used this secrecy law to hide the identity of a witness, who was an associate of the psychic medium Gabriella Carlizzi, providing secret testimony concerning Mario Spezi, apparently used against both Spezi and in the Calamandrei case where it was read aloud for the first time. Carlizzi's associate provided an entirely fictional life history of Mario Spezi attempting to frame him as the actual Monster of Florence serial killer, or as ebing among the satanic-masonic cult Mignini and Giuttari had theorized was responsible for the Narducci killings, and as related to the MOF killings.

It may be the case that Mignini, as Paul Ciolino put it, "believes his own lies", and uses the prtext of his theory of a satanic-masonic-murder-orgy cult as a pretext for invoking the anti-mafia/terrorism statutes.

The point though, is that Mignini doesn't seem to randomly abuse the laws. I think its essential to remember that all of Mignini's official actions take place in the context of his absolutely manifest mental illness.

I agree with your observation. I also believe his focus on the occult having a hand in his murder cases isn't necessarily outside of the realm within the Italian culture.

I do think the older generation of Italians do believe they live amongst demons. They seem to believe there is a constant spiritual struggle that is taking place in their midst. That they are somehow always in the presence of evil.

IMO Mignini is obsessed with this notion. That he is somehow predestined to confront the evil demons. Maybe he has OCD or maybe he is simply conforming to his upbringing. Whatever the cause, it is disturbing to think a person like this can abuse his post with impunity. It is equally disturbing that a system would not see fit to remove a character like this. Especially one that has caused the headaches and embarrassment he has to the judiciary.

 

[Vixen]

Pretend that you are in a civil trial in the United States and you are trying to get a settlement from Amanda for the murder of Meredeth Kercher. Do you really think you could get it?

Nicole Goldman's family managed it against "If I Did It" O J Simpson.

 

[Bill Williams]

It has been consistently reported by several.

Why do you think Mez pointedly ignored Amanda's desperate text messages at Halloween.

"Do you know how it feels to be lonesome?" ~ Gram Parsons

Several what? Nick van der Leek? There's your problem right there.

It is also completely unnecessary to cast Mez in bad light. You make her sound vindictive, and there's no evidence to suggest she was ever mean to anyone.

 

[Bill Williams]

I agree with your observation. I also believe his focus on the occult having a hand in his murder cases isn't necessarily outside of the realm within the Italian culture.

I do think the older generation of Italians do believe they live amongst demons. They seem to believe there is a constant spiritual struggle that is taking place in their midst. That they are somehow always in the presence of evil.

IMO Mignini is obsessed with this notion. That he is somehow pre-destined to confront the evil demons. Maybe he has OCD or maybe he is simply conforming to his upbringing. Whatever the cause, it is disturbing to think a person like this can abuse his post with impunity. It is equally disturbing that a system would not see fit to remove a character like this. Especially one that has caused the headaches and embarrassment he has to the judiciary.

In essence they DID remove Mignini by kicking him upstairs.

 

[Bill Williams]

Yes, the first thing Dad Amanda did, was not hire an attorney, but a PR agency - possibly several of them systematically posting here - as reputation limitation and maximum commercial marketing, paying shills to gild the lily and secure television and book deals.

He was in Seattle and by that time Edda had hired attorney(s) in Italy.

The hypocrisy is rank. While accusing others of being involved in a PR scam, Vixen advances - PR-style with requisite spin - something technically true, but which leaves out an important detail which would have destroyed the implied factoid.

Good work, Vixen.

 

[carbonjam72]

Several what? Nick van der Leek? There's your problem right there.

It is also completely unnecessary to cast Mez in bad light. You make her sound vindictive, and there's no evidence to suggest she was ever mean to anyone.

Bill, you failed. I'm so disappointed.

 

[Dopre]

Yes, I agree that's what's going on here. The arguments don't make sense, because they aren't made to be serious. Vixen is just doing, as the english say, "taking a piss".

Every backwards distraction that generates a result or serious effort to refute, is just one more giggle.

The only smart answer, is to simply ignore the bait. It requires group cohesion, I'm afraid. Can we do it?

I will. I'm officially done with that poster.

It will take a group effort. And if previous experience out there on forums serves me, it probably will not happen. There are people in this debate who simply cannot allow the vitriol to be ignored.

I understand the desire to respond is strong but I always hope for common sense to prevail.

 

[Vixen]

"She did not retract her disgusting allegations against Patrick, as she likes to claim. She reiterated it." -Vixen

"I’m sorry I didn’t remember before and I’m sorry I said I could have been at the house when it happened. I said these things because I was confused and scared. I didn’t lie when I said I thought the killer was Patrick. I was very stressed at the time and I really did think he was the murderer. But now I remember that I can’t know who the murderer was because I didn’t return back to the house." -AK

She said that she did accuse Patrick because she was confused but now that she remembers clearly she realizes that she was wrong. I know the ISC said that it was a "self-accusation" but I have to believe that they got a bad translation of what she wrote because that description makes no sense. Vixen, either you are mentally unstable or you can't read the Queen's English.

Which one is it?

Really? Seeing Patrick in "blurry flashing images" is taking it back?

BTW That's how the Scream murderer describes his memory of the killing of Cassie (?) Stoddart .

 

[Vixen]

This is known as a Conspiracy Theory. The reality is that we all came to the controversy independently, each because of his/her own outrage at the injustice being perpetrated. You don't like the reality, so you make up a phantom organised campaign in support of the defendants. What I see here isn't Amanda supporters "gilding the lily", but a torrent of lies from you, Vixen, trying to perpetuate the myths that have been built up by the bogus guilt campaign.

Of course, the Knox/Mellas family were forced to seek help from a media management organisation, because they were inundated with demands from the press at exactly the time when they needed to direct their efforts to getting legal help for Amanda.

It's not phantom. Gogerty-Marriott PR consultants really did exist.

 

[Bill Williams]

Several what? Nick van der Leek? There's your problem right there.

It is also completely unnecessary to cast Mez in bad light. You make her sound vindictive, and there's no evidence to suggest she was ever mean to anyone.

Bill, you failed. I'm so disappointed.

Take it up with David Marriott. He's the one directing the PR campaign!

 

[Bill Williams]

IIRC Rudy got one year's solitary confinement. AIR Quintavallle did describe Amanda's clothing. IIRC Rudy's pants were covered in blood and he went home to change, going around the back route of the grassy ravine to avoid the roads.

IIRC Rudy's, Raff's and Amanda's trainers all came into contact with blood. Amanda disposing of hers, as the ladies size 37 ACICS were never found. Raff rinsing his in bleach.
Nobody knows what happened to Amanda's coat or the bag she took round to the cottage to fill with clothes.
They had all night.

Amanda had two showers that day.

Not a word of truth in the highlighted parts. If there were, you would have provided citations. Perhaps the only citation possible is to Nick van der Leek's instabook.

 

[Antony]

What Vixen is doing isn't about arguing the truth as she sees it. Reading what she writes it is easy to see her comments are meant to incite and elicit reactions.

People need to stop feeding her. She is here trolling and she will not stop as long as people validate her. As difficult as it is, people need to ignore her. She will eventually go away if she sees she isn't getting a reaction.

I wish everyone would get back to discussing the case in a more constructive way. These pages have been filled with useless rebuttals to Vixen that are truly a waste of energy.

I can understand your frustration, Dopre, but it's not as if there is much else to discuss - apart from speculating as to why the overdue motivations report isn't forthcoming. And if we spend too much time talking about how annoying Vixen is, then we'll be warned by the mods for being off-topic.

And Vixen actually prompts people to provide useful information - for example, I wasn't aware of why it was that C&V didn't initially test 36i until someone outlined that -
a) they were tasked with reviewing Stefanoni's work rather than performing additional testing;
b) the sample turned out to be LCN and they weren't equipped to test it.

So there is useful discussion coming out of the Vixen exchanges.

 

[Bill Williams]

It will take a group effort. And if previous experience out there on forums serves me, it probably will not happen. There are people in this debate who simply cannot allow the vitriol to be ignored.

I understand the desire to respond is strong but I always hope for common sense to prevail.

Vixen has three posts filled with whoppers already, and the day is young. Judging by past experience, Vixen has 27 more posts to go today equally filled with whoppers.

 

[Bill Williams]

I can understand your frustration, Dopre, but it's not as if there is much else to discuss - apart from speculating as to why the overdue motivations report isn't forthcoming. And if we spend too much time talking about how annoying Vixen is, then we'll be warned by the mods for being off-topic.

And Vixen actually prompts people to provide useful information - for example, I wasn't aware of why it was that C&V didn't initially test 36i until someone outlined that -
a) they were tasked with reviewing Stefanoni's work rather than performing additional testing;
b) the sample turned out to be LCN and they weren't equipped to test it.

So there is useful discussion coming out of the Vixen exchanges.

I agree.

This also explains why the only wedge that the Chieffi ISC panel back in 2013 had in relation to the C&V report, was to chide Hellmann. The Chieffi panel had no jurisdiction to fool with direct evidence, therefore they had to make it a criticism of Hellmann about due legal-process.....

...... namely that Hellmann (acc. to Chieffi) abdicated his judicial responsibility to the experts. Experts should only be bringing the data back to the court that they are directed by the court to assess. Chieffi seems to be saying that Hellmann too easily gave up on Sample 36I, letting the de facto decision be made by C&V.

Ok. A remand to the Nencini court. Everything about Sample 36I went the defence's way. This time, the RIS Carabinieri brought their negative controls to court, the whole shee-bang.

Nencini convicted anyway. Mainly, Nencini convicted on the basis of him reinterpreting evidence his court did not hear. When one criticizes the case against AK and RS as being all a judicial creation - rather then one emanating from evidence - one has to think "Nencini".

For instance, Nencini's court heard no evidence from Rudy Guede. None. Most certainly there was no opportunity for either Sollecito's side or Knox's side to cross-examine any claim Rudy may have made outside of Nencini's courtroom.

What does Nencini do? He takes one item from only one of Rudy's ever-changing stories/alibis, and uses that against AK, and by extension RS. (Sollecito quite artfully then adopted a 'separation strategy', saying - "If you're going to use Rudy's lies against Amanda, what does that have to do with me?")

So, it turns out that the Chieffi critique of Hellmann about Sample 36I is perhaps bogus. But even if legally accurate, upon further judicial review in the Nencini court it adds nothing to any suggestion the pair may be guilty. So if the Hellmann court acquitted, and there's nothing more to challenge that in front of Nencini's court.....

..... well, of course Nencini's court would convict. Why? Because Nencini invents stuff post-trial, which was never cross-examinable in his court, and we now can discuss all this because.....

Vixen keeps telling lies about the evidence.

 

[acbytesla]

It has been consistently reported by several.

So? They are reporting Rudy as their source for that. What you are saying is that if Rudy makes a statement that is potentially incriminating to our protagonists, it is the truth. But, if it is exculpatory and is exonerate it must be a lie?

Why do you think Mez pointedly ignored Amanda's desperate text messages at Halloween.

Let's start with the fact that this is another lie. This has been proven with the phone records to you over and over and over.

"Do you know how it feels to be lonesome?" ~ Gram Parsons

I do, but Amanda had no reason to feel lonesome since she was with her new boyfriend.
The EVIDENCE, not the raving imagination of the guilters point to Amanda being well adjusted and socially mature.

Your idea that she felt slighted and that resulted in a homicidal plot that involved 2 young men that she barely knew is both stupid and a wild fantasy.