The Historical Jesus III

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Can you please EXPLAIN to me what on earth your post has to do WITH the fact that, as I have stated, scholars in general BELIEVE that Paul, or perhaps one OF HIS early copyists, has included words from hymns EXTOLLING Jesus within the texts of Pauline epistles?

Can you please explain what on earth your post has to do with the fact that there is ZERO historical data for Paul and ZERO manuscripts with the Pauline Corpus dated to the 1st century pre 70 CE?

Scholars who believe "Paul" are generally Christians who pray to Jesus, their God and Savior, for Eternal Life and Remission of Sins.

You are wasting time with the propaganda from Jesus cult Christians.

Jesus cult Christians and Jesus cult Scholars believe the myth/fiction stories of the Pauline Corpus and must say that letters in the Pauline Corpus are authentic in order to go to heaven to be with their Lord and Savior.

It should be obvious that the Pauline Corpus is a pack of lies, fiction and mythology which was fabricated no earlier than c 180 CE or after the writings attributed to Clesus.
 
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That's very true. The analogies with shepherds and sheep abound. Lots of references back to Psalms.

One difference, David had 700 concubines. At least Jesus "kept it in his trousers", as it were.


Well he may have had no choice :confused:
Matthew 19:10-12
  • 19:10 His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
  • 19:11 But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
  • 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Or it could be that he liked a different kind of orgy :p

More like God had a gay bdsm exercise for you. He got tied to a cross and tortured and humiliated a bit, while knowing full well that he'll be ok on Sunday, and being in control all the time (by virtue of being an omnipotent God.)

That's neither sacrifice, nor even suicide. It's what some people actually pay a dominatrix to do to them. And if God felt more like playing with some muscular and sweaty guys in the uniforms of an oppressive empire, hey, I'm not gonna judge :p

Or maybe 12 merry men were just enough for him ;)

Was Jesus Gay?
[imgw=200]http://i.guim.co.uk/static/w-620/h--/q-95/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2011/4/4/1301910349208/jesus-christ-gay-004.jpg[/imgw]​

Consider Mark 14:51-52 it does not specifically say he was sleeping with the almost naked lad who ran away when the soldiers came to catch them in the act perhaps, although the nakedness and following him with nothing but a linen cloth around his naked body lead one to raise an eyebrow or even gape a little.
14:51 And there followed him a certain young man, having a linen cloth cast about his naked body; and the young men laid hold on him:
14:52 And he left the linen cloth, and fled from them naked.​

However in The Secret Gospel Of Mark there is a very specific passage that elaborates further on the above episode and leaves very little to the imagination.
And they came to Bethany. And there was a woman there, whose brother was dead. And she came and fell down before Jesus and said to him: Son of David, have mercy on me. But the disciples rebuked her. And in anger Jesus went away with her into the garden where the tomb was; and immediately a loud voice was heard from the tomb; and Jesus went forward and rolled away the stone from the door of the tomb. And immediately he went in where the young man was, stretched out his hand and raised him up, grasping him by the hand. But the young man looked upon him and loved him, and began to entreat him that he might remain with him. And when they had gone out from the tomb, they went into the young man’s house; for he was rich. And after six days Jesus commissioned him; and in the evening the young man came to him, clothed only in linen cloth upon his naked body. And he remained with him that night; for Jesus was teaching him the mysteries of the Kingdom of God;););):jaw-dropp:eye-poppi. And from there he went away and returned to the other bank of the Jordan.​

Also don't forget this eyebrow raising scene where Jesus takes off his clothes and puts a towel around him and then instead of using another towel with which to dry the feet of the disciples, he uses the towel that he "girded himself with".
John 13:4-5 He riseth from supper, and laid aside his garments ; and took a towel, and girded himself. After that he poureth water into a basin, and began to wash the disciples’ feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded.​

Also ponder this COZY scene which followed immediately after the naked washing of feet orgy.... where the disciple Jesus loved very much is laying on his breasts.

John 13:22-27
Then the disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. Now there was leaning on Jesus’ bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him, that he should ask who it should be of whom he spake. He then lying on Jesus’ breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? Jesus answered, He it is, to whom I shall give a sop, when I have dipped it. And when he had dipped the sop, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon. And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly. :p

Ok…ok… the last highlight is a bit of a joke. :p

However, it can be seen that this "disciple whom Jesus loved" was a “special” disciple and Jesus' love for him was noteworthy because John keeps repeating it all the time.

And with all that naked washing of feet and drying with his loincloth and reclining on his bosom one cannot ignore the possibility of something not quite hunky dory going on there.

John 20:2 Then she runneth, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulchre, and we know not where they have laid him.:p

John 21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher’s coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.

John 21:20-22 Then Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following ; which also leaned on his breast at supper, and said, Lord, which is he that betrayeth thee ? Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come:p, what is that to thee ? follow thou me.


Yet another "interesting" episode....Why the hell would the blind guy have to get naked to have his blindness cured? :confused::confused:
Mark 10:49-51 And Jesus stood still, and commanded him to be called. And they call the blind man, saying unto him, Be of good comfort, rise; he calleth thee. And he, casting away his garment, rose, and came to Jesus. And Jesus answered and said unto him, What wilt thou that I should do unto thee?​

Here is another "interesting" episode (John 21:2-7).

Peter is fishing NAKED with the guys. One can only speculate why the hell he was fishing naked (nudist?), but it is also obvious the other guys were not naked.

Now, notice that Peter was not shy at all about being naked in front of the guys.... nor was he perturbed when a stranger from shore was talking to them telling them where to cast their nets to catch more fish.

What is strange is that none of the disciples recognizes the stranger for who he was. Only the "disciple whom Jesus loved" managed to recognize Jesus.... why?

This "special" disciple pointed out to Peter that it was Jesus and suddenly Peter scrambles to cover himself up and then jumps into the "sea" (which by the way is the size of a small lake and is freshwater not saltwater and can never have waves large enough to threaten any but the flimsiest of dinghies, but that is another issue).

One cannot help but wonder
  • Why was Peter fishing naked?
  • Why was he the only one naked?
  • Why was he not shy being naked in front of his friends?
  • Why was he not even circumspect in front of a "stranger" looking on from shore?
  • Presumably if a stranger could see them and talk to them, then others could see them too, so why wasn't Peter bashful about his nakedness in front of any passersby?
  • Why didn't anyone recognize the stranger except the "special" disciple?
  • Why did Peter get so coy about being naked when he realized it was Jesus?

Did Peter know something about Jesus (who was supposed to be a guy afterall) that we are not explicitly told but are supposed to implicitly infer?

John 21:1-7
21:1 After these things Jesus shewed himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and on this wise shewed he himself.
21:2 There were together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples.
21:3 Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also go with thee. They went forth, and entered into a ship immediately; and that night they caught nothing.
21:4 But when the morning was now come, Jesus stood on the shore: but the disciples knew not that it was Jesus.
21:5 Then Jesus saith unto them, Children, have ye any meat? They answered him, No.
21:6 And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the ship, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes.
21:7 Therefore that disciple whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. Now when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his fisher's coat unto him, (for he was naked,) and did cast himself into the sea.


I have always wondered why Judas needed to point out Jesus with a kiss, couldn't he just point at him or even touch him on the shoulder?

Maybe the Sanhedrin arrested Judas as a sodomite and they offered him a deal to out Jesus as one too. Of course they could not just take his word for it, so they needed Judas to give Jesus a good passionate wet kiss and if Jesus participated and kissed back then that would be a good proof.

Do we have any evidence for that?

From here
Both Matthew (26:47–50) and Mark (14:43–45) use the Greek verb kataphilein, which means to kiss firmly, intensely, passionately, tenderly, or warmly. It is the same verb that Plutarch uses to describe a famous kiss that Alexander the Great gave Bagoas.​


Bagoas
Bagoas (Old Persian: Bagoi, Ancient Greek: Βαγώας Bagōas) was a eunuch in the Persian Empire in the 4th Century BCE, said to have been the catamite of Darius III, and later the Eromenos (Beloved) of Alexander the Great.​

catamite
In its modern usage the term catamite refers to a boy as the passive or receiving partner in anal intercourse with a man.[1]

In its ancient usage a catamite (Latin catamitus) was a pubescent boy who was the intimate companion of a young man in ancient Greece and Rome, usually in a pederastic relationship.[2] It was usually a term of affection and literally means "Ganymede" in Latin. It was also used as a term of insult when directed toward a grown man
 
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So by this logic [that honest scholars were inadequately prepared for faked data] David Waterston of King's College London in 1913, French paleontologist Marcellin Boule in 1915 and Franz Weidenreich in 1923 were NOT "honest scholars" because they WERE adequately prepared for such a situation (in that they spotted it)? :boggled:

Tell me does logic hurt your head or do you just not see the logical quagmires that some of these statements produce?
This is a joke, no? You mean this. You think my reasoning leads logically to that conclusion. If my pocket is picked because I'm too honest to suspect people, but my friend's pocket isn't picked, because he is too wary, and better prepared for such an eventuality, that means to you that I consider my friend to be dishonest? That's logic, is it?

Please think this one through again.
Can you say Testimonium Flavianum (ie Josephus)?
Yes.
I knew you could.
If you knew, why did you ask? If you didn't know, how do you know now? Is this another logical conundrum?
And you must link to voluminous writings and videos of Carrier. :D
As I pointed for the most part Carrier did NOT bring that much new to the Christ Myth table but he was able to do what no other Christ Myther before him was: get a reasonably comprehensible present referenced version together that passed the peer review process and was published by a recognized scholarly publisher. ... Sure Robert M Price has good points but he hadn't cleared that peer review-recognized scholarly publisher bar.

Carrier rightly blasts the bad part of the Christ Myth theory (Zeitgeist case in point)
I claim extra points, cos I got from you not only a Carrier youtube link, but also a reminder that Carrier has passed the peer review process and is published by a recognised scholarly publisher.
 
Can you please explain what on earth your post has to do with the fact that there is ZERO historical data for Paul and ZERO manuscripts with the Pauline Corpus dated to the 1st century pre 70 CE?
I asked first. Let me remind you what I asked.
Can you please EXPLAIN to me what on earth your post has to do WITH the fact that, as I have stated, scholars in general BELIEVE that Paul, or perhaps one OF HIS early copyists, has included words from hymns EXTOLLING Jesus within the texts of Pauline epistles? That's WHAT they think. How can that possibly mean that I am MAKING atheists look like idiots because they are outnumbered by those who BELIEVE the myth fables called THE New Testament without corroboration?
So, fair's fair: you should answer first.
Scholars who believe "Paul" are generally Christians who pray to Jesus, their God and Savior, for Eternal Life and Remission of Sins.
So people who say, not all the words in the Epistles were written by Paul, are Christians who pray to Jesus their God and Saviour, for Eternal Life and Remission of Sins. I thought that it was was the people who say that Paul DID write all the Epistles who are generally Christians who pray to Jesus, their God and Saviour, for Eternal Life and Remission of Sins.
 
The main mistake that the HJ side are now making when turning to dictionaries for a definition of the word "evidence" (and where those dictionaries do in any case offer various contradictory definitions, often with un-stated assumptions about what is (or is not) known as what they call a "fact" or "truth"), is that whilst you can describe any data or information as "evidence" of some kind about something, that does not mean your "data or information" is evidence for the truth of what you are actually claiming.

Specifically - in the case of Jesus, when anyone talks about evidence, what they are trying to claim is that the biblical writing (and/or in the non-biblical writing attributed to authors such as Tacitus and Josephus .. see note-1), is in fact evidence showing that Jesus was indeed a living human known to various people.

But what is found in the biblical writing (and in the non-biblical writing) as any mention at all of Jesus or other biblical figures such as "James", is not in fact evidence of the existence of any of those figures as known to any of those authors. Instead, in the biblical writing, it is clear from the writing itself, and agreed by even the most religious of Christian bible scholars and theologians, that none of the biblical writers had ever met anyone called "Jesus". Far less had Tacitus, Josephus, or any other non-biblical writer ever met anyone called Jesus (or for that matter, ever met any such person as "James").

So at very best, the most that could be provided as "evidence" in the biblical writing (or the non-biblical writing), is evidence only of what the authors believed about what they thought had been said about Jesus (and James) by other earlier unnamed unknown people.

That is evidence only of the writers beliefs about Jesus. It is not evidence that their beliefs were actually true. In particular, it is not evidence of Jesus himself being a human person ever known to any of those writers.



Note-1. The non-biblical mention of Jesus (or "James") said to be in the writing of Tacitus and Josephus, has to be of dubious authenticity for several very obvious and undeniable reasons -

i. The writing is not actually known from either of those authors, but is instead apparently known only from Christian copyists writing 1000 years and more after Josephus and Tacitus had died.

ii. For both authors, it has long since been shown that the minimal passages they wrote with any mention of Jesus, show clear evidence of later alteration (i.e. so-called "interpolation")

iii. And in respect of ii above - not only were Christian copyists in general known to have been in the habit of altering what earlier writers had said about Jesus, but in the case of Tacitus and Josephus they had 1000 years and more in which to make such alterations.

iii. There is no suggestion from either author that they had personally ever met either Jesus, James, or anyone else who ever claimed to have known Jesus. So they could never have been writing more than hearsay stories about Jesus (or James) anyway. And since they make no mention of where they ever got any such stories of Jesus (or "James"), the source of that hearsay is also entirely anonymous.

iv. However, there is one, and only one, known source of the time from which authors such as Josephus and Tacitus could have obtained any such stories about Jesus or James or any of the biblical figures, and that is the biblical writing itself.

v. So in respect of iv above - as far anyone can honestly tell, authors such as Josephus and Tacitus were (a) not an independent source at all, and were (b) taking their minimal mentions of Jesus and James from what had already been written and preached in the bible. The bible is the actual source, not Josephus or Tacitus.
 
I asked first. Let me remind you what I asked. So, fair's fair: you should answer first.

May I remind you that you claimed that letters in the Pauline Corpus were composed c50-60 CE. You are incapable of providing any evidence.

Which manuscript with the Pauline Corpus is dated to c 50-60CE?

Papyri 46?? The Codex Sinaticus??


Craig B said:
So people who say, not all the words in the Epistles were written by Paul, are Christians who pray to Jesus their God and Saviour, for Eternal Life and Remission of Sins. I thought that it was was the people who say that Paul DID write all the Epistles who are generally Christians who pray to Jesus, their God and Saviour, for Eternal Life and Remission of Sins.

You have no idea that there were and still are HERETICAL Jesus cult Christians.

You have only exposed your lack of knowledge.

Modern Jesus cult heretics [LIBERAL Christians] are presently attempting to historicise Paul WITHOUT evidence.
 
IanS said:
That is evidence only of the writers beliefs about Jesus. It is not evidence that their beliefs were actually true.

Would you agree that such a definition of evidence invalidates almost every ancient historical event and character ?

What a bizarre question!!

You seem to have NO idea that there are archaeological evidence, artifacts and scientific data which can be used to determine the historicity of characters and events.

For example, there are archaeological evidence and/or artifacts of many characters mentioned in the NT like Augustus, Pilate and Tiberius except for Jesus, Satan, and the Angel Gabriel.

The NT Canon INVALIDATES Jesus of Nazareth as a figure of history.

Jesus was born of a Ghost according to the Church which Canonised the Gospels.

Based on the definition of evidence in the dictionary there is a MASSIVE amount of evidence IN and OUT the NT that Jesus of Nazareth was a Myth/Fiction character.
 
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What an annoying posting style!!

Your post which is typically void of substance is precisely applicable to you "What an annoying post style".

I merely expose your fallacies. You had NO idea how history is done.
 
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Would you agree that such a definition of evidence invalidates almost every ancient historical event and character ?

That little nonsensical dodge by the more extreme HJ proponents has been addressed before.

The "There is more evidence for Jesus than for X" section of the Evidence for the historical existence of Jesus Christ rationawiki article touches on this:

While it is is impossible to cover all the ancient figures and events Jesus has been compared to there are a few popular ones that show just how shaky the position really is (It should be noted that this sometimes mixed with the more accurate than Homer argument).

Sun Tzu (Sun Wu) (544–496 BCE?): his very existence is debated in scholarly circles [189] despite reference in the Records of the Grand Historian and Spring and Autumn Annals which used earlier official records that haven't survived.

Confucius (Kong Qiu) (551–479 BCE) the Records of the Grand Historian used archives and imperial records as source material (which themselves have not survived). Its author Sima Qian noted the problems with incomplete, fragmentary, and contradictory sources stating in the 18th volume of the 180-volume work "I have set down only what is certain, and in doubtful cases left a blank." Moreover, Kong Qiu was the governor of a town in Lu and ultimately held the positions of Minister of Public Works and then Minister of Crime for the whole Lu state not exactly minor positions one could create a fictitious person to fill.

Leukippos (shadowy nearly legendary figure of early 5th century BCE): very existence doubted by Epicurus (341 – 270 BCE).[190]

Socrates (c469 – 399 BCE): written about by contemporaries Plato, Xenophon (430 – 354 BCE), and Aristophanes (c446 – 386 BCE).

Plato (428 – 347 BCE): written about by contemporaries Aristotle (384 – 322 BC), Xenophon, and Aristophanes.

Alexander the Great (July 20, 356 – June 11, 323 BCE)[191]: official historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, generals Ptolemy, Nearchus, and Aristobulus and helmsman Onesicritus where all contemporaries who wrote about Alexander. While their works were eventually lost, later works that used them as source material were not. Additionally there are known contemporary accounts that survive: Isocrates, Demosthenes, Aeschines, Hyperides, Dinarchus, Theocritus, Theophrastus, and Menander.[192] And on top off all that there are the contemporary inscriptions and coins.

Hannibal (247 – 182 BCE): Written about by Silenus, a paid Greek historian who Hannibal brought with him on his journeys to write an account of what took place, and Sosylus of Lacedaemon who wrote seven volumes on the war itself. Never mind the contemporary Carthaginian coins and engraved bronze tablets.

Julius Caesar (July 100 – 15 March 44 BCE): Not only do we have the writing of contemporaries Cato the Younger and Cicero but Julius Caesar' own writings as well (Commentarii de Bello Gallico aka The Gallic Wars and Commentarii de Bello Civili aka The Civil War). Then you have the contemporary coins, statues and monuments.

Pontius Pilate ( unknown - c 37 CE): Some apologists try to imply that people at one time thought that this person didn't exist. In reality, no evidence of anyone having ever stated that Pontius Pilate didn't exist could be found[193] In fact, known contemporary Philo does mention Pontius Pilate in what survives of Embassy to Gaius (c40 CE) and near contemporary Josephus describes in detail several conflicts that Pilate had with his Jewish subjects.

Apollonius of Tyana (c15 CE - c100 CE): Often refereed to as the "Pagan Christ", fragments of Apollonius' own writings are part of the Harvard University Press edition of The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (1912) ISBN-13: 978-0674990180 as documented in Carrier's Kook article.


Boadicea (d. 60 CE): Tacitus himself would have been a 5-year old boy when she poisoned herself c. 60 CE making him contemporary to her. Furthermore, his father-in-law Gnaeus Julius Agricola served under Gaius Suetonius Paulinus during the revolt. So Tacitus was not only an actual contemporary, but he had access to Gaius Suetonius Paulinus' records and an actual eyewitness.

Muhammad (570 – c. June 8, 632 CE): Contrary to the picture some apologists like to paint there are non-Muslim references by people who would have been contemporary with Muhammad. The earliest is the personal notes of an unnamed monk c 636 CE mixed in with his copying of the gospels that talks of the "many villages were ruined with killing by [the Arabs of] Mụhammad and a great number of people were killed and captives"[194] and in 661 CE Sebeos writes about Mụhammad and it is believed to be an eyewitness to many of the events he recorded. As if that wasn't enough, the Quran and other writings about Muhammad can be traced to identifiable people who actually were with him during his lifetime (as in the case of Alexander the Great).[195]

Now compare those to Jesus:

1) The only known possible contemporary is Paul (Romans, 1st Corinthians, 2nd Corinthians, Galatians, Philippians, 1st Thessalonians and Philemon) who not only writes some 20 years after the events but seems more intent on the Jesus in his own head than any Jesus who actually preached in Galilee. In fact, even though in his own account Paul meets "James, brother of the Lord" we get no details of Jesus' life, not even references to the famous sermons or miracles.

2) The Gospels are anonymous documents written sometime between 70 CE to 140 CE and there are no references to any of them until the early 2nd century.

"A viable theory of historicity for Jesus must therefore instead resemble a theory of historicity for Apollonius of Tyana or Musonin Rufus or Judas the Galilean (to list a few very famous men who escaped the expected record more or less the same degree Jesus did.)"[196]
 
The HJ argument is the very worst argument known to mankind since it is derived from Ghost stories called the New Testament.

In the Pauline Corpus, a writer claimed he was a witness that God RAISED Jesus [the Lord from heaven] from the dead.

What a STUPID Ghost story!!

If Paul did live in the time of King Aretas and was a contemporary of the supposed Jesus he would be known as an IDIOT or a Stupid Liar.

If Jesus did exist and did die then he could NOT have resurrected.

The Pauline Corpus is just a pack of Ghost stories invented long AFTER the Fall of the Jewish Temple.

Examine another Ghost story in the Pauline Corpus.

The LORD will blow a TRUMPET or make some kind of NOISE
and DEAD People would RISE.


1 Thessalonians 4
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

What stupidity under the guise of history.
 
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That little nonsensical dodge by the more extreme HJ proponents has been addressed before.

It's not a dodge, and I'm not an HJ proponent. It's an important question about standards of evidence. Just like the definition of evidence, it lies at the core of the debate.

Sun Tzu (Sun Wu) (544–496 BCE?): his very existence is debated in scholarly circles [189] despite reference in the Records of the Grand Historian and Spring and Autumn Annals which used earlier official records that haven't survived.

So he never existed.

Confucius (Kong Qiu) (551–479 BCE) the Records of the Grand Historian used archives and imperial records as source material (which themselves have not survived).

Not survived ? Worthless.

Socrates (c469 – 399 BCE): written about by contemporaries Plato, Xenophon (430 – 354 BCE), and Aristophanes (c446 – 386 BCE).

So we only have evidence that they believe he existed.

Plato (428 – 347 BCE): written about by contemporaries Aristotle (384 – 322 BC), Xenophon, and Aristophanes.

Idem.

Alexander the Great (July 20, 356 – June 11, 323 BCE)[191]: official historian Callisthenes of Olynthus, generals Ptolemy, Nearchus, and Aristobulus and helmsman Onesicritus where all contemporaries who wrote about Alexander.

I did say 'most' historical figures. But of course you yourself dodged my question and instead launched a tirade against arguments I never made.

No surprise there. Verily, if I want scholarly discussion about history, I won't find it at the ISF.
 
...So at very best, the most that could be provided as "evidence" in the biblical writing (or the non-biblical writing), is evidence only of what the authors believed about what they thought had been said about Jesus (and James) by other earlier unnamed unknown people.

That is evidence only of the writers beliefs about Jesus. It is not evidence that their beliefs were actually true. In particular, it is not evidence of Jesus himself being a human person ever known to any of those writers.
...


Would you agree that such a definition of evidence invalidates almost every ancient historical event and character ?


What a bizarre question!!


It is in fact the very same casuistry and disingenuous dissimulations used in almost every single Christian apologetics about the topic.

Chicanery trying to flummox language, shenanigans trying to befuddle epistemology, hoodwinking trying to confuse science, and cozening trying to dumbfound logic.

Semantic and syntactic legerdemain and sophistic sleight of tongue and pen. The bedazzling magic of appearing to be saying something when in fact all that is happening is diverting attention from their attempts at shoving god through the trapdoor of illogic and wishful thinking.

That is the last refuge remaining for sky daddy wishful thinkers; to patrol skeptic and atheist sites and warp all meaning of words and logic and reality to the point where their god will make sense only because there is nothing but nonsense left after all that bedazzling magic of utter warping of reality and language and logic and any sense of rationality.

Warp reality to make it possible for their irrational illogical wishful thinking and delusions to become just yet another claptrap buried in the middle of piles of crap which no one will even detect as hogwash because they have been blindsided by the underhanded sophistry.

And if anyone who is still holding on to sanity starts pointing out the loony world that would result from applying their definitions to situations other than the Buybull and Jesus and their God, they immediately switch them back to mean something else that suits their purposes in "proving" black is white and white is black and up is down and down is up and the Mad Hatter is Einstein and of course he is then "proven" to be crazy.

I think this post expresses it in a nutshell (with a slight rephrasing)
Arguing with casuists and apologists is like playing chess with a pigeon, In the end the pigeon will just knock over all the pieces, crap on the board and fly back to its flock to claim victory.​


Here are some Biblical verses that must be part of the Christian casuists' motto.

  • Proverbs 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
  • 1 Corinthians 1:27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise;
 
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Note-1. The non-biblical mention of Jesus (or "James") said to be in the writing of Tacitus and Josephus, has to be of dubious authenticity for several very obvious and undeniable reasons -

i. The writing is not actually known from either of those authors, but is instead apparently known only from Christian copyists writing 1000 years and more after Josephus and Tacitus had died.

ii. For both authors, it has long since been shown that the minimal passages they wrote with any mention of Jesus, show clear evidence of later alteration (i.e. so-called "interpolation")

iii. And in respect of ii above - not only were Christian copyists in general known to have been in the habit of altering what earlier writers had said about Jesus, but in the case of Tacitus and Josephus they had 1000 years and more in which to make such alterations.

iii. There is no suggestion from either author that they had personally ever met either Jesus, James, or anyone else who ever claimed to have known Jesus. So they could never have been writing more than hearsay stories about Jesus (or James) anyway. And since they make no mention of where they ever got any such stories of Jesus (or "James"), the source of that hearsay is also entirely anonymous.

iv. However, there is one, and only one, known source of the time from which authors such as Josephus and Tacitus could have obtained any such stories about Jesus or James or any of the biblical figures, and that is the biblical writing itself.

v. So in respect of iv above - as far anyone can honestly tell, authors such as Josephus and Tacitus were (a) not an independent source at all, and were (b) taking their minimal mentions of Jesus and James from what had already been written and preached in the bible. The bible is the actual source, not Josephus or Tacitus.


Another issue is until a certain point you have people using Josephus and Tacitus before these passages are noticed centuries later.

Origen's reference to the James passage is a little wonky:

"this writer" (Josephus) ... "in seeking after the cause of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the temple" ... "says nevertheless" ... "that these disasters happened to the Jews as a punishment for the death of James the Just, who was a brother of Jesus (called Christ)". - Against Celsus 1.47

"But at that time there were no armies around Jerusalem, encompassing and enclosing and besieging it; for the siege began in the reign of Nero, and lasted till the government of Vespasian, whose son Titus destroyed Jerusalem, on account, as Josephus says, of James the Just, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ, but in reality, as the truth makes dear, on account of Jesus Christ the Son of God." - Against Celsus 2.13

Origen clearly states twice that Josephus said the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was the result of the death of James the Just.

Yet we do NOT see that anywhere in the Josephus we have. So either Origen was citing from some other work of Josephus that no longer exists or he is reading something into what we do have that simply is not there.

If the James brother of Jesus who was called Christ is genuine why would Origen claim Josephus connected this event with destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple? There is nothing there to even suggest such a connection much less a implication.


As I said Origen's claim that the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple was punishment for not the death of James but the crucifixion of Jesus which had supposedly happened 30 years before the death of James is effectively saying God woke up one day and said to himself 'You know the Jews crucified my kid should punish them for that. So what if it has been over 30 years.' :boggled:

Even Christians who used Josephus and Origen were saying that the death of James the Just was very close to the destruction of Jerusalem and its temple


In fact, Eusebius of Caesarea in his Church History, Book III, ch. 11 clearly writes "After the martyrdom of James and the conquest of Jerusalem which immediately followed..." But there are seven years and four High Priests between these two events if the Josephus passage is genuine so either we have one of the wonkiest definition of "immediately followed" in the history of the world or the James-Jesus passage we have has been dressed up to agree with Origen's claim but the tinker didn't get the details right.

Further evidence of this is found in Rufinus of Aquileia in the 4th century who states James the Lord's brother was informed of the death of Peter. Now Peter died no earlier then 64 CE ("The Acts of Peter") and no later then 68 CE (The apocryphal Acts of Paul (c. 160 CE)).

But the James in Josephus died in 62 but Christians were clearly saying his death was at the hands of Nero either right after the Great Fire (64 CE) or sometime after which shows the James in Josephus we have is NOT James the Just.
 
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It is in fact the very same casuistry and disingenuous dissimulations used in almost every single Christian apologetics about the topic.

Ah, there it is: accusing people who disagree with you of being closet believers, just as I predicted.

Chicanery trying redefine the English language

Yes, because using the DICTIONARY is redefining the English language. :boggled:
 
I think this post expresses it in a nutshell (with a slight rephrasing)
Arguing with casuists and apologists is like playing chess with a pigeon, In the end the pigeon will just knock over all the pieces, crap on the board and fly back to its flock to claim victory.​

I prefer the term Kusche's Parrot:

"Say I claim that a parrot has been kidnapped to teach aliens human language and I challenge you to prove that is not true. You can even use Einstein's Theory of Relativity if you like. There is simply no way to prove such a claim untrue. The burden of proof should be on the people who make these statements, to show where they got their information from, to see if their conclusions and interpretations are valid, and if they have left anything out."

The HJ position is a train wreck in that it basically claims its evidence is good and then ask people to prove it isn't.

To be fair the Christ Myth is filled with things just as bad.

But if you look the formal HJ position has gotten smaller and smaller.

First to go was Jesus the supernatural being cranking out miracles.
Next to go was the Gospels being reasonably historical
Now we seem to be going for a Jesus who is smaller and smaller to where the successful ministry is a fabrication created by a bunch of fanatical followers decades after the event and Jesus just happened to hit the historical jackpot of being remembered while more famous would be messiahs were forgotten.


The title of Price's Incredible Shrinking Son of Man is ironically fitting because that is basically where the HJ is going; get him small enough to not be noticed by any contemporaries but still large enough to get himself killed by the local authorities and inspire enough followers that the movement survives until Paul gives it a much needed shot in the arm or kick in the butt or what ever it needed to not just continue but grow and thrive. :D

The fact that no non believer even notices contemporary Christianity until the early 2nd century would fit with the whole mystery cult idea. But if Christianity was a mystery cult then origins it didn't like would be discarded for a more favorable origin.

We see that with the John Frum cult; if not for a 1949 letter preserved in a 1952 article we wound not even know the John Frum cult (in some form) actually went back to the 1910s. With the one sect of Christianity deciding what survived via is copying (when it didn't actively destroy stuff) we get a very skewed view of the past.
 
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....But the James in Josephus died in 62 but Christians were clearly saying his death was at the hands of Nero either right after the Great Fire (64 CE) or sometime after which shows the James in Josephus we have is NOT James the Just.

Who is still claiming James in Josephus' Antiquities of the Jews 20.9.1 is Jesus of Nazareth?

Even the Lord Jesus DENIED he had a human brother called James the Apostle.

There is not even any historical data for James the Apostle in any contemporary sources.

Christian writers of antiquity claimed the parents of James the Apostle was NOT those of Jesus.

Jesus was a Ghost/God/man--born of a Ghost and a virgin and God Creator.

There are multiple irreconcilable versions of the parents of James and when he died.

1. James the Apostle DENIED he was the brother of the Lord Jesus in the "Book of James" according to Origen.

2. The Lord Jesus DENIED James was his physical brother in the Apocalypse of James.


The Apocalypse of James
It is the Lord who spoke with me: "See now the completion of my redemption. I have given you a sign of these things, James, my brother. For not without reason have I called you my brother, although you are not my brother materially.

The writings of antiquity do show that there NEVER was any historical data for James the Apostle as a brother of Jesus, the son of the Ghost.
 
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