the SNP have saved the foxes!

[CapelDodger]

Well the SNP have only saved foxes in England and Wales. The new hunting proposals are still law in Scotland. The SNP have had 8 years to being the law in Scotland in line with the rest of the country but it clearly isn't important to them.

There has been some movement on this already but some toff-bashing would go down quite well just now. And there are elections coming. There are always elections coming ...

 

[commandlinegamer]

Well the SNP have only saved foxes in England and Wales. The new hunting proposals are still law in Scotland. The SNP have had 8 years to being the law in Scotland in line with the rest of the country but it clearly isn't important to them.

Possibly not; from what I've read recently the flushing of foxes before guns wasn't being observed, so it may be that Scottish legislation will now be amended.

Anyway, if I've got this right, the reason the SNP planned to vote in the Commons on this issue was apparently in revenge for the government making no concessions on the Scotland Bill.

I do find the Tories bringing up the foxhunting pretty strange though, as if they simply wanted to test the water, and they have other cunning plans in the pipeline.

 

[Craig B]

Anyway, if I've got this right, the reason the SNP planned to vote in the Commons on this issue was apparently in revenge for the government making no concessions on the Scotland Bill.

That would be justified, if true.

I do find the Tories bringing up the foxhunting pretty strange though, as if they simply wanted to test the water, and they have other cunning plans in the pipeline.

Yes they do. New Labour seems to have abjured the concept of opposing things presented by the government, as a matter of general principle. We did not win the election. We are not worthy. On such a matter as toff-style fox hunting, though, Labour will vote against, so it's an excellent way for the Government to test the balance of forces in the Commons.

 

[The Atheist]

I would pay good money to see him and Boris fight to the death.

Whatever you're paying, I'll pay treble.

What a glorious and happy thought. With any luck, they'd both die.

 

[MikeG]

........I do find the Tories bringing up the foxhunting pretty strange though........

No, it's very simple. This is about stirring up a controversy with the SNP to aid the English votes for English laws agenda. The SNP have been (predictably) incredible naiive to fall for this.

 

[Craig B]

No, it's very simple. This is about stirring up a controversy with the SNP to aid the English votes for English laws agenda. The SNP have been (predictably) incredible naiive to fall for this.

Not agreed. The government are either being forced to display weakness, or are making their version of EVEL even more damaging to the Union than it already is, which is plenty. During the election campaign NuLab announced a no deals with the SNP policy, but have now invited the SNP to give support on the fox hunting issue.

Sturgeon has got it more or less right, by making the SNP intervention part of the fight over EVEL.

Since the election, David Cameron’s government has shown very little respect to the mandate that Scottish MPs have. On the Scotland bill, reasonable amendments backed by the overwhelming majority of Scottish MPs have been voted down. The English votes for English laws proposals brought forward go beyond any reasonable proposition and look to make Scottish MPs effectively second-class citizens in the House of Commons. So, I think if there’s an opportunity – as there appears to be here – and on an issue where David Cameron appears to be out of touch with majority English opinion as well, to actually remind the government how slender their majority is.

The battle over the Scotland Bill may be won or lost by the SNP, but this particular move is by no means naive. "Stirring up controversy" is exactly what they need to do.

Recall this: the SNP doesn't aspire to win a UK election, but to detach Scotland from the union. And for this purpose controversy over the rights of Scottish MPs in Westminster is an issue sent from Heaven.

 

[Cleon]

This stuff gets old, skeptichaggis. You could be accused of being a stuck record.......

Maybe it's a bit hyperbolic, but I have a hard time disagreeing with this:

Seriously only a prat would even think fox hunting for sport is OK.

Torturing small animals to death for fun is generally seen as a sign of psychopathy.

 

[devnull]

It's different here in Australia obviously - only good fox is a dead fox.

It's hard when theyre so cute though, but it has to be done.

 

[Cleon]

It's different here in Australia obviously - only good fox is a dead fox.

It's hard when theyre so cute though, but it has to be done.

Well, yeah. That's not for fun or sport. It's pest control.

I have no problem calling an exterminator for rats, but I'd be repulsed at the idea of a "sport" where they're purposely set out to be pulled apart by cats.

 

[MikeG]

......During the election campaign NuLab announced a no deals with the SNP policy, but have now invited the SNP to give support on the fox hunting issue.........

You do realise that was in the context of potentially forming a government, don't you? So nothing whatsoever to do with working in opposition. Can you see a situation arising in which it is possible for Labour and the SNP to have a different position to each other on every government bill that comes before the house? No, of course not. So you won't trot out this "they promised not to work with us" nonsense every time will you?

 

[MikeG]

....Torturing small animals to death for fun is generally seen as a sign of psychopathy.

I agree 100%. Seeing silly hyperbole in a post doesn't mean I disagree with one of the points in that post. I'm very anti fox hunting. I'm also very anti class warfare, and skeptichaggis' post was nothing more than old class warfare prejudices writ large.

 

[funk de fino]

It's not about livestock, but about pheasants and partridges. This is the country landowners real sport, and foxes take rather more of these expensively reared birds than farmers and landowners feel happy with.

And no, skeptichaggis, the SNP hasn't saved anything. The government will merely re-introduce this bill once they have brought in the English-votes-for-English-legislation procedures, thus bypassing the SNP completely. Don't get too giddy too soon.

Except as it stands with current EVEL proposal Scots MP can stlll vote. Don't get too giddy too soon.

 

[funk de fino]

No, it's very simple. This is about stirring up a controversy with the SNP to aid the English votes for English laws agenda. The SNP have been (predictably) incredible naiive to fall for this.

A complete misreading of the situation.

 

[Craig B]

You do realise that was in the context of potentially forming a government, don't you? So nothing whatsoever to do with working in opposition. Can you see a situation arising in which it is possible for Labour and the SNP to have a different position to each other on every government bill that comes before the house? No, of course not. So you won't trot out this "they promised not to work with us" nonsense every time will you?

Very clever. But poisoning the well in advance is too obvious a tactic to succeed.

If NuLab will seek SNP cooperation (not merely happen to walk through the same lobby) on every appropriate issue brought before the Commons, but thinks it highly improper to cooperate in government, then the SNP and that part of the Scottish electorate which voted for it are entitled to tell NuLab to go and bile their heids.

 

[Craig B]

You do realise that was in the context of potentially forming a government, don't you? So nothing whatsoever to do with working in opposition. Can you see a situation arising in which it is possible for Labour and the SNP to have a different position to each other on every government bill that comes before the house? No, of course not. So you won't trot out this "they promised not to work with us" nonsense every time will you?

Further to my last. This is how Bella Caledonia puts it, I think rightly.

... the UK Labour Party, (although admittedly using Ian Murray, the last unlikely survivor of the Scottish Party as postman) invited the SNP to support them on a vote on fox hunting in England and Wales. For the SNP, the fact of this invitation was what mattered.

(BC 25/07/15) That is the point. Not simply that they might or might not happen to vote the same way, in opposition to the Tories. Albeit that Harriet Harman seems keener on the foxes than on the third and subsequent children of poorer families, when it comes to opposing government measures.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Yes, foxes are seen as the friends of market gardeners because foxes eat rabbits.

Meanwhile, what's the cost of secure fencing vs the cost of maintaining dozens of dogs and horses?

The ultimate hypocrisy is when we find that some hunts build artificial earths to encourage fox breeding, then claim they need to keep down "vermin".

Wankers.

This. Not to mention the self contradictory arguments like "we'll be over run with urban foxes/more foxes are killed on the roads, why don't you give up your car?" or "We really do it because we love the horses and riding /limit us to drag hunts and hundreds of us will stop and destroy our horses".

I have to deal with a few of these people at one of my jobs, if this ever does go through and they come in to celebrate I'll be giving my employer a simple choice, "relieve me now and let me go elsewhere or fire me in ten minutes".

 

[Francesca R]

It annoys me when pro hunting people say that it's just class warfare, and we don't like it because it's what posh people do.

Its got nothing to do with disliking rich people.

Right Not a bit:

Of course we all know that David Cameron is sitting on his gold toilet and wiping his bum with pictures of single mothers with disabled kids [ . . . ]

British fox"hunting"(nothing of the sort of course)as carried out by well heeled,idiotically dressed hooray Henrys with a pack of baying hounds

(Although the image of Cameron on the gold toilet is priceless (in a way) so thanks

 

[Francesca R]

I can't stand fox hunting, Tony Blair took ages getting round to banning it but at least he did it. But the reason this vote would fail is because of Tories rebelling against it, not so much the opposition parties. Good for anyone who says they will oppose it.

It does make a mockery of the SNP position, in my view though. At least it is a further nail in the coffin of the hypothesis that they care at all about self determination, rather than power. (The other one was when Alex Salmond wanted to force a currency union on the rest of UK a year ago)

 

[Rat]

Right Not a bit:

I think the relevant word in my post is 'just'. I'm sure that the fact that it's something posh people do is a factor in some people's opinion, and it may even be a major factor in that of a few. For some others, it may just be an added bonus. For me, it doesn't sway my opinion at all. I have no basic objection to polo or croquet. Well, apart from the obvious ones.

 

[P.J. Denyer]

Right Not a bit:



(Although the image of Cameron on the gold toilet is priceless (in a way) so thanks

To be fair I'd be just as opposed to re-introducing working class bloodsports like bear and badger baiting or dog fighting but they were banned generations ago and banned outright with no compromises to keep the culture alive, thankfully no-one is pressing for a return to legality for these activities.