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South Carolina, tear down that flag!

Okay, I understand that neither the Confederate flag nor kudzu are ideal symbols for the New South.

How about:
Magnolias?


Or even symbols that one can be truly proud of:
Harriet Tubman?
Martin Luther King Jr?
George Washington, even?
 
Incidentally slavery, as done by the South America, was one of the most pernicious examples. They had an entire slave race. People thought to be destined to be a slave by accident of birth. Even the Romans wouldn't do that.

So the south United States didn't just do slavery it did perhaps the most historically evil incarnation of it possible.

In other words there is absolutely nothing to be proud of in being a southerner American and I told this to someone on facebook not too long ago. If you are from the south America there are only two ways to respectability: lie and never let anyone know you are from there or kill yourself.

That's pretty much it.

FTFY. I anxiously await your special pleading on how this only applies to the South because of the Civil War and not the entire country which upheld this same practice during the 18th century.
 
Barbecue, blues, bluegrass, seersucker suits, Hank Williams, mint juleps...

There are so many things about the South that I love, I don't understand why so many want to associate all that is Southern heritage and culture with a four-year period when it was ruled by a clique of racist aristocrats.
That's the elephant everyone is somehow managing to dance around without knowing it's dominating the room.
 
FTFY. I anxiously await your special pleading on how this only applies to the South because of the Civil War and not the entire country which upheld this same practice during the 18th century.

Which part of the Union tried to leave the party, and then went to war over their supposed right to own people?
 
Barbecue, blues, bluegrass, seersucker suits, Hank Williams, mint juleps...

Kind of interesting how many of those stem from black southern culture that is explicitly absent in the confederate flag. So are they really southern when they are excluded by the symbol of the south?

There are so many things about the South that I love, I don't understand why so many want to associate all that is Southern heritage and culture with a four-year period when it was ruled by a clique of racist aristocrats.

Come on it was ruled by a clique of racist aristocrats for far more than 4 years.
 
Which part of the Union tried to leave the party, and then went to war over their supposed right to own people?

But before then, the people of the North accepted and/or owned slaves!!! How could you possibly claim the people of the North are worth anything at all after that?!? :eek::eek:
 
Same way I don't blame the current Germans for that unpleasantness last century - just when they put up a swastika flag and start making noises about the glories of the Master Race
 
But before then, the people of the North accepted and/or owned slaves!!! How could you possibly claim the people of the North are worth anything at all after that?!? :eek::eek:

The Northern States had begun as slave holders but outlawed it prior to the Civil War. The South insisted on continuing the practice, and was even willing to secede and go to war to continue slavery when the majority of the USA looked as if they intended to work toward banning it.

Perhaps you can cite how the South was already moving toward banning slavery prior to the Civil War in the same way that the North had already done so? Perhaps you can cite how the subsequent, post-Civil War laws and society in the South had moved under their own initiative toward recognizing that Blacks were equal citizens even as late as the 1960s? Or did they instead resist any effort, often violently, to recognize the rights of Blacks even in the very recent past?

In summary: yes, the North did many awful things. They held slaves when the country was first formed. They were racist in many ways for a very long time. But I give them the credit of eventually seeing the light, first in terms of slavery and then in terms of protection of minority rights. Just as I give Germany the credit of confronting and learning from their past, whereas Japan not so much. Some individuals may be truly saintly and almost never have erred (probably true of a few individuals in both the North and the South), but recognizing one's errors, rather than persisting in them, is a big plus to me.

But if this is in response to Travis's over the top remark: that is his post and not mine. I only go as far as suggesting that the South stop celebrating, even cluelessly, their historical wrongs. The North seems to have moved on.

[edit] my sincere apologies if you were being satirical- as you know one needs a fine tuned understanding to get satire when reading a post.
 
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It’s so easy to sit in our air conditioned 21st century homes and pass judgment on those who have gone before us. What is it that makes us superior to those slave owners, and those who supported that evil regime?

Could it be our genes? Since they have the same genes as us, that doesn’t seem likely. I don’t think there was a morality mutation that spread through the population since that time. If it wasn’t their nature, then it must have been their nurture. It must have been something about the way they were brought up. Does that mean they were truly bad people? If you have a bad upbringing, does it make you a bad person? Does it truly make sense to condemn the white southerner who owned slaves, or the Aztec priest who cut out beating hearts of POWs?

This thread has brought me to a deeper understanding of moral relativism. It seems impossible to me that all of those hundreds of thousands who fought for the south were all bad people, or those thousands who supported the Aztecs, or the millions who followed the Nazis. I think a culture can be horrible, and yet produce good people.

As for the relative merits of north and south, of slave states and free states, I don’t think there’s a lot of difference. Abolitionists were a growing minority in the north, but they were a minority. Lincoln didn’t run as an abolitionist, and if he had, he wouldn’t have been elected. The entire country was neck deep in slavery. In the South, people wanted cheap labor. In the North, they wanted cheap shirts. Slavery worked in everyone’s best interest. It’s no coincidence that the abolitionist movement gained the most ground in regions that would be least affected economically by it’s demise. Even after four years of war, with victory in sight, someone who opposed abolition got 45% of the vote. That war wasn’t a war of good vs. evil. It was more like bad vs. worse.
 
It’s so easy to sit in our air conditioned 21st century homes and pass judgment on those who have gone before us. What is it that makes us superior to those slave owners, and those who supported that evil regime?

The fact that we don't.

It's just been explained: the slave-owning south was an island. They were holdouts after almost the entire rest of the world had figured out slavery was bad. The fact that these people had contemporaries who were perfectly capable of understanding the folly of slavery and moving to correct and abolish it - if not enthusiastically, then at least accepting of the passing away of the institution - is what leaves them vulnerable to judgment. Moral relativity isn't an issue: by the standards of their own time, they were backwards and horribly wrong. Not only that, but they were willing to commit violence in the name of their backwardness.
 
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Lincoln didn’t run as an abolitionist, and if he had, he wouldn’t have been elected.
That's only partially true. He ran on a platform of not allowing slavery to spread in the territories, but not interfering with it where it existed. It is pretty clear that he was anti-slavery for most, if not all, of his life. His reluctance to push absolition came from more pragmatic reasons. And, after all, he did abolish slavery.

I also think you are underestimating the abolitionist movement in the U.S., which arguably, and ironically, started with Thomas Jefferson. I'd be curious to your source of abolitionism being a merely minority faction. I'm also curious about the percentage of the population that were anti-slavery, which is not quite the same thing. Were the slaves, themselves, taken into account into that calculation?
 
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That's only partially true. He ran on a platform of not allowing slavery to spread in the territories, but not interfering with it where it existed. It is pretty clear that he was anti-slavery for most, if not all, of his life. His reluctance to push absolition came from more pragmatic reasons. And, after all, he did abolish slavery.

I also think you are underestimating the abolitionist movement in the U.S., which arguably, and ironically, started with Thomas Jefferson. I'd be curious to your source of abolitionism being a merely minority faction. I'm also curious about the percentage of the population that were anti-slavery, which is not quite the same thing. Were the slaves, themselves, taken into account into that calculation?

He didn't run on a platform of abolishing slavery. In other words, he didn't run as an abolitionist. In his heart, he was probably an abolitionist, but didn't think it could be accomplished. i.e. there wasn't enough popular support to abolish it, because it was a minority position. After four years of war, two years after the Emancipation Proclamation, and with military victory in sight, McClellan, who certainly was not an abolitionist, got 45% of the vote, which did not include any votes from Confederate states.

I would be curious if you have any evidence at all that abolition was anything other than a minority position in the north before the war.

Speaking of things that are only partially true, there is the statement that he did abolish slavery. He probably would have had he lived, but slavery was not abolished during his life. He did begin advocating for abolition before his death.
 
Everyone. Right. You don't even give some of those "everyones" 3/5 of a vote.

Clearly not every person benefited from slavery. That's not the point. By "everyone", I mean people in all states. I mean that slavery was supported everywhere in the United States, not just in those states that held slaves.

The point is that the United States was a slave owning nation. By 1860, only southern states held slaves, and there was a growing abolitionist movement, but the United States was still a country that allowed, condoned, and profited from slavery.

To repeat a previous statement, the Civil War was not a war between good and evil. It was a war between bad and worse.
 
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The point is that the United States was a slave owning nation. By 1860, only southern states held slaves, and there was a growing abolitionist movement, but the United States was still a country that allowed, condoned, and profited from slavery.

And if you take the split second before a crashing airplane hits the ground, it is still "in flight". You are ignoring the trajectory of the north/United States rejecting slavery, which explains why only southern states held slaves by 1860.
 
And if you take the split second before a crashing airplane hits the ground, it is still "in flight". You are ignoring the trajectory of the north/United States rejecting slavery, which explains why only southern states held slaves by 1860.

You are flat wrong.

http://crankynotions.com/2011/04/17/ulysses-s-grant-jew-hater-and-slave-owner/

http://www.factcheck.org/2007/12/presidents-who-owned-slaves/

http://www.nps.gov/ulsg/learn/historyculture/slaveryatwh.htm

I guess technically his wife owned them until 1865, if you want to quibble. So much for the "holier than thou attitude".
 
I guess technically his wife owned them until 1865, if you want to quibble. So much for the "holier than thou attitude".

Um, that's not a quibble, that's a fact. Grant owned one slave. He freed him in 1859. The others did belong to Julia which came to her from her father. And that was in Missouri, a slave state, where she was allowed to keep them despite her husband's wishes. (all sorts of family politics enter here. Julia's father was a pro-slavery SOB, a real piece of work.)

There were a handful of slaves still in "the north". New Jersey had implemented a slow gradual emancipation and by 1860 there were maybe a dozen or so left. There were also a few slaves in the north that belonged to southern residents who had moved north temporarily. This included some military officers who took their slaves with them (usually a man-servant). The northern states had begin to pass laws freeing slaves that were brought into their states in transit. This was a real problem for southern slave owners trying to travel. One reason why the Dred Scott decision was such a bombshell was because it threw a spanner in the works with such laws.

The discussion about slavery often sidetracks, understandably, into ideas of white supremacy. The two ideas are, of course, closely connected. You could not have the slave system as it existed without white supremacy, but you could have the latter without the former. The question is not whether most northern whites believed whites were superior to non-whites. Of course they did. It was a given assumption in society across the whole country (and in other nations too). But one could believe in a hierarchy of races and still think slavery was evil and should be abolished. Southern defenders (and I am not labeling Reheat as such) often say "well, the Civil war could not be about slavery because Lincoln was a racist." Yeah? so? He was a white man in 1860. That's like saying he was right-handed. So were most people.

The southern system was based upon the idea that superior people (whites, regardless of actual status) were entitled to the profits created by the labor of their inferiors (black slaves). The idea of free labor which was growing in the north said that even if a person was "inferior" (politically or socially) they still had the right to the profits of their own labor. Equality in the right to keep one's own labor did not necessarily mean equality in everything.

In practice there are all sorts of contradictions and hypocrisies here. Northern industrialists had no problem profiting from the labor of workers, a contradiction the south loved to point out. And did the southern planters really consider some dirt-poor white farmers their equals? of course not. But people put their faith in all sorts of belief systems that are full of contradictions and that don't really work that way in practice. The important point is that the different regions were evolving in radically different ways in their operating assumptions about owning labor, and the central part of that debate was slavery.
 
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