Continuation Part 17: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Vixen]

From watching a number of programs involving false confessions, I took away an important lesson. Ask for a lawyer and invoke you right to be silent right way. In addition, try to walk out the door.

Or, if guilty, get help of Innocence Projects fast, learn how to refuse a lawyer, then claim breach of Art 6 Human Rights, blame an innocent person, claim false confession, claim confusion and amnesia, claim normal police witness taking is police brutality, claim the police hit you, and you'll be an innocent man, my son.

 

[Bill Williams]

From watching a number of programs involving false confessions, I took away an important lesson. Ask for a lawyer and invoke you right to be silent right way. In addition, try to walk out the door.

Easier said than done.

I'm reading about the Barry Beach case, where when he was 21 he falsely confessed to a murder in Montana which happened 4 years' previous. Spent the next 30 years in prison, was freed on being granted a new trial, was acquitted at the new trial, but the Montana Supreme Court overturned the "granting of the new trial" so there he sits, back in prison.

There's literally no evidence pointing to him other than the confession. Literally. Indeed, an expert in false confessions said that of the nine crime elements Beach cites in the confession, eight are plain wrong. Yet there he sits.

A common element, it seems, is that the interrogatee still believes that their innocence is obvious and it's just a matter of explaining it the right way. Then there's the element that someone thinks all they are doing is helping with the investigation.... all the police have to say is, "Don't you want us to solve this thing?"

It takes major cojones to walk out of a car dealership when buying a car! Usually they find some excuse to take your keys to what might be the trade-in, your present car. There are a million and one tricks to coerce you to stay - they do this for a living, and you are only in the situation once in a blue moon.

 

[Bill Williams]

Or, if guilty, get help of Innocence Projects fast, learn how to refuse a lawyer, then claim breach of Art 6 Human Rights, blame an innocent person, claim false confession, claim confusion and amnesia, claim normal police witness taking is police brutality, claim the police hit you, and you'll be an innocent man, my son.

First of all, where did Amanda Knox acquire all this knowledge you claim she pulled off?

Second of all - IIRC one cannot refuse a lawyer. In Italy, the interrogation cannot legally continue until there's a lawyer for the accused and a competent translator.

Once again, you mischaracterize things for some unknown motive.

 

[Ken Dine]

From watching a number of programs involving false confessions, I took away an important lesson. Ask for a lawyer and invoke you right to be silent right way. In addition, try to walk out the door.

So true! Excellent advice for Americans, too.

Of course, back in 2007 both Raffaele and Amanda were rather naive and they felt the fact that they were innocent would protect them both.

From Amanda and Raffaele's mistakes, I've learned a lot too, so today I'm less naive than I was back in 2007.

At a family dinner last week DNA came up (since my family was having ours tested). I don't remember exactly how the topic of criminal DNA investigations came up, but I mentioned how unreliable DNA can be in criminal investigations, and as a juror I would be a lot more skeptical if that were presented. As a juror I wouldn't automatically discount DNA evidence, but today I'd be more critical when assessing its importance.

My niece who is an RN said, "WHAT?" She thought I was NUTZ for questioning DNA as evidence. Of course, I wasn't questioning the scientific aspect of DNA, just how its testing can be compromised.

Since it was at a dinner with other family members I didn't even try to explain to her what I actually meant, so I'm preparing an email to explain problems when DNA is used as evidence in trials (w/ citations), because even here in America there have been many instances of junk DNA being used to convict innocent people.

Of course, DNA evidence has also been used to reverse improper guilty convictions.

Many people as jurors (my niece included) can be overly influenced by forensics evidence, which is called the "CSI Effect."

That's what I've learned from this case, to be a tad more skeptical since evidence is only as sound as the people who collect and process it, and unfortunately, people are imperfect.

 

[Grinder]

Riii-iight.

USA who has one of the worst human rights record in the world, in regard to execution - 2nd only to extremely cruel China! - where black Americans can get gunned down in the street by police as soon as look at them, get gunned down by goofy kids whilst singing hymns in church and where up until recently children and minors could get life without parole, are going to advise Italy - one of the lowest incarceration rates in the world and up to two automatic appeals for convicts - how to clean up its back yard.

Oh, the irony.

First of all Katy_did isn't saying anything about the Italian system versus the US. I am under the impression that Katy_did is not from the US and might even be Italian but not sure.

But I don't get your point at all. She should be mistreated because the US mistreats blacks? She should be convicted of a crime regardless of the paucity of evidence because the US executes too many people?

Btw, do you believe Rudi's account of there not being disco buses there on the 1st?

Since Nara's best recollection is she woke up at 11 to 11:30 and Curatolo said he saw the kids from 9:30 til almost midnight, how does their involvement work. When did they do it?

Since she had them running out right after the scream when did the bloody footprint on the mat happen?

 

[kwill]

From watching a number of programs involving false confessions, I took away an important lesson. Ask for a lawyer and invoke you right to be silent right way. In addition, try to walk out the door.

This. Don't talk to police. Don't help them. Don't trust them.

They're not trying to solve a crime, they're trying to close a case. Are there times when the opposite is true? Sure. Maybe that's even the rule, but you're not in a position to know. The only way to protect yourself from false charges is to keep your mouth firmly closed.

 

[Ken Dine]

Easier said than done.

I'm reading about the Barry Beach case, where when he was 21 he falsely confessed to a murder in Montana which happened 4 years' previous. Spent the next 30 years in prison, was freed on being granted a new trial, was acquitted at the new trial, but the Montana Supreme Court overturned the "granting of the new trial" so there he sits, back in prison.

There's literally no evidence pointing to him other than the confession. Literally. Indeed, an expert in false confessions said that of the nine crime elements Beach cites in the confession, eight are plain wrong. Yet there he sits.

A common element, it seems, is that the interrogatee still believes that their innocence is obvious and it's just a matter of explaining it the right way. Then there's the element that someone thinks all they are doing is helping with the investigation.... all the police have to say is, "Don't you want us to solve this thing?"

It takes major cojones to walk out of a car dealership when buying a car! Usually they find some excuse to take your keys to what might be the trade-in, your present car. There are a million and one tricks to coerce you to stay - they do this for a living, and you are only in the situation once in a blue moon.

That's another thing that I've learned from this case, as a juror I would be more critical if the only evidence against the defendant was a questionable confession, and if the confession had been taped, I'd certainly be looking to see if the detective was leading them and giving the accused the relevant info of the case.

To avoid injustices, all interrogations should be video-taped!

 

[Numbers]

Easier said than done.

I'm reading about the Barry Beach case, where when he was 21 he falsely confessed to a murder in Montana which happened 4 years' previous. Spent the next 30 years in prison, was freed on being granted a new trial, was acquitted at the new trial, but the Montana Supreme Court overturned the "granting of the new trial" so there he sits, back in prison.

There's literally no evidence pointing to him other than the confession. Literally. Indeed, an expert in false confessions said that of the nine crime elements Beach cites in the confession, eight are plain wrong. Yet there he sits.

A common element, it seems, is that the interrogatee still believes that their innocence is obvious and it's just a matter of explaining it the right way. Then there's the element that someone thinks all they are doing is helping with the investigation.... all the police have to say is, "Don't you want us to solve this thing?"

It takes major cojones to walk out of a car dealership when buying a car! Usually they find some excuse to take your keys to what might be the trade-in, your present car. There are a million and one tricks to coerce you to stay - they do this for a living, and you are only in the situation once in a blue moon.

That's why you shouldn't discuss trading in your car on the purchase deal. Amanda and Raffaele were not aware that the police considered them suspects; it was the duty of the police to inform them, and to supply fair lawyers if they did not have lawyers.

 

[bagels]

Or, if guilty, get help of Innocence Projects fast, learn how to refuse a lawyer, then claim breach of Art 6 Human Rights, blame an innocent person, claim false confession, claim confusion and amnesia, claim normal police witness taking is police brutality, claim the police hit you, and you'll be an innocent man, my son.

As long as the police forget to record in their state of the art interrogation room of course. For miracle girl Amanda the impossible is easy

 

[maddyalou]

You may have seen this and I missed it but ABC Family is planning a series inspired by the Amanda Knox case. I'm not thrilled about its theme.

i cannot post links (long time follower, rare poster) but if you search google news: Amanda Knox TV series, you'll see a hit for it.

 

[Bill Williams]

As long as the police forget to record in their state of the art interrogation room of course. For miracle girl Amanda the impossible is easy

Can Vixen explain how Amanda (or Raffaele for that matter) managed to convince the PLE NOT to record the interrogations. How did Amanda and Raffaele manage to convince them to record all their phone conversations, but not the interrogations?

Similarly, did Amanda manoeuvre them into not recording Patrick's and subsequently Rudy's?

Answer this adequately and I'll change sides.

 

[Planigale]

So true! Excellent advice for Americans, too.

Of course, back in 2007 both Raffaele and Amanda were rather naive and they felt the fact that they were innocent would protect them both.

From Amanda and Raffaele's mistakes, I've learned a lot too, so today I'm less naive than I was back in 2007.

At a family dinner last week DNA came up (since my family was having ours tested). I don't remember exactly how the topic of criminal DNA investigations came up, but I mentioned how unreliable DNA can be in criminal investigations, and as a juror I would be a lot more skeptical if that were presented. As a juror I wouldn't automatically discount DNA evidence, but today I'd be more critical when assessing its importance.

My niece who is an RN said, "WHAT?" She thought I was NUTZ for questioning DNA as evidence. Of course, I wasn't questioning the scientific aspect of DNA, just how its testing can be compromised.

Since it was at a dinner with other family members I didn't even try to explain to her what I actually meant, so I'm preparing an email to explain problems when DNA is used as evidence in trials (w/ citations), because even here in America there have been many instances of junk DNA being used to convict innocent people.

Of course, DNA evidence has also been used to reverse improper guilty convictions.

Many people as jurors (my niece included) can be overly influenced by forensics evidence, which is called the "CSI Effect."

That's what I've learned from this case, to be a tad more skeptical since evidence is only as sound as the people who collect and process it, and unfortunately, people are imperfect.

What I find reassuring is there is much discussion amongst forensic DNA scientists about how to explain to courts the limits of reliability. The good forensic scientists are aware of the dangers of over confidence in DNA and the dangers of wrongful conviction. One can see how police forensic scientists are producing research demonstrating how innocent transmission can occur, and how to explain to courts that even the best regulated laboratories will have contamination events.

 

[Vixen]

First of all Katy_did isn't saying anything about the Italian system versus the US. I am under the impression that Katy_did is not from the US and might even be Italian but not sure.

But I don't get your point at all. She should be mistreated because the US mistreats blacks? She should be convicted of a crime regardless of the paucity of evidence because the US executes too many people?

Btw, do you believe Rudi's account of there not being disco buses there on the 1st?

Since Nara's best recollection is she woke up at 11 to 11:30 and Curatolo said he saw the kids from 9:30 til almost midnight, how does their involvement work. When did they do it?

Since she had them running out right after the scream when did the bloody footprint on the mat happen?

I was addressing the forum.

I have said before I do not believe - zilch, zippo, diddly - anything Rudy says.

All three are champion liars.

Maybe the police were terse, they are not airline cabin staff, but I disbelieve Amanda's self-serving claim of being tortured and interrogated non-stop 53 hours by tag teams.

 

[Bill Williams]

I was addressing the forum.

I have said before I do not believe - zilch, zippo, diddly - anything Rudy says.

All three are champion liars.

Maybe the police were terse, they are not airline cabin staff, but I disbelieve Amanda's self-serving claim of being tortured and interrogated non-stop 53 hours by tag teams.

No one, much less Amanda Knox, has claimed torture or a 53-hour, non-stop tag-team interrogation.

These wild claims do not set your other claims in good light. There's no reason for wild claims.

Backing up a bit - how did Amanda Knox manage to convince the PLE not to videotape her interrogations? How did she manage to get Mignini to continue the illegal interrogation without a lawyer? Even Mignini conceded that in Italy an interrogation of a suspect cannot take place unless a lawyer is present.

 

[Ken Dine]

Can Vixen explain how Amanda (or Raffaele for that matter) managed to convince the PLE NOT to record the interrogations. How did Amanda and Raffaele manage to convince them to record all their phone conversations, but not the interrogations?

Similarly, did Amanda manoeuvre them into not recording Patrick's and subsequently Rudy's?

But ...but ...but ..they did manage to record the interrogations of the English girls, right? The police also managed to jury-rig a recording device in the waiting room hoping to capture Amanda & Raffaele conspiring out there.

They also managed to wire their respective jail cells.

Short answer, the police recorded everything they felt would help their prosecution of the witch and her unwitting knave, no more, no less.

Answer this adequately and I'll change sides.

EASY ANSWER (I'm surprised you had to ask): Amanda is a WITCH with supernatural powers, of course!

 

[RWVBWL]

Guilter Timeline...

<snip>
Since Nara's best recollection is she woke up at 11 to 11:30 and Curatolo said he saw the kids from 9:30 til almost midnight, how does their involvement work. When did they do it?

Since she had them running out right after the scream when did the bloody footprint on the mat happen?

Hey folks,
let's help them Guiltards do a time line, ok?

So Toto sees Amanda and [SIZE="-10"]Raff [/SIZE]hanging out,
from 9:27 pm onwards. What's Rudy doing?
Hanging out in Meredith's kitchen, on the couch,
makin' out, fooling around and having some **** luvin?

Or was Meredith laying on her bed,
playing with her phone for a few hours
instead of studying that History book that she had just borrowed,
titled Early Modern Europe, 1450-1789, written in English,
that Robyn wanted back in the morning at class?

(Dumb chicks,
they didn't even know it was an Italian holiday
and that there wasn't gonna be any class in session the next day, duh!)

Odd that it was kinda chilly that night
and yet once inside her flat Meredith kept her jacket on and never bothered to turn on the heat
nor slip into some comfy pajama's,
after she ate a mushroom...

Hey vixen,
since you are from a different part of the beach,
err make that the woods, than where I am from,
I gotta ask ya a question: When you get home,
do you still wear your jacket for hours + hours
and not turn on your bedroom heater if you're all alone
on a chilly night?

Maybe Rudy ain't on the couch smotchin' and foolin' around with Meredith,
a lil' hootchie who, if ya believe Rudy Guede, invites boyz back to her crib, no not when leaving a club after partying with the dude all night, but the next night when she knows, yep, just knows that all the other girls + her downstairs boyfriend -(who is visiting his relatives on holiday), won't be home that night where she lives...

So where is Rudy Guede?
Why doesn't Toto see him that night?
'Cause he's black, maybe wearin' dark clothing?
Hmmm, odd, that...

Was Guid-O gettin' drugs for them 3 to party,
to party with Meredith?

What are Amanda and [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] doin?
Still hangin' outside, arguin' as Antonio Curatolo said?
Or inside, makin' out, foolin' around,
which made "poor Rudy",
who wasn't get any, kinda horny,
as I believe it was what Judge Massei wrote?


Didn't some people, seen on CCTV,
turn and stare in the direction of Meredith's flat around this time?
I wonder why?

Surely in a sex game gone wrong,
Meredith was never blindfolded, her mouth ball-gagged
and she had her arms and ankles tied up somewhere, right?

OK,
it's after 10:00pm,
somehow Meredith's phone pings from somewhere else, I seem to recall, right?
Did she go for an evening walk?

Odd how her cell phone
did not reach her bank when she tried to,
what, check her available balance?

Odd to is that a car broke down right soon after this time, right in front of the driveway area of Meredith's flat. But the occupants and the tow truck driver never noticed anything strange goin' on at the Meredith's cottage, or the surrounding area.

But yet Hekuran Kokomani states that he had a conversation with the tow truck driver, heck he asked him directions! Weird!
I wonder where Koko's car was parked?

Then afterwards,
Nara hears a scream and 2 people fleeing, right?
I wonder, does she think it was the Amanda or The [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] that was fleeing near her double paned windows?

For we know that it was not Rudy Guede,
because, because, because well he tried to save Meredith,
heck he went to her bathroom and got 3 towels to help staunch the blood,
(all at the same time, or did he go back again, again, and again for 1 more towel?)

I wonder if Rudy put his hand, his fingers over the wound to slow the flow of Meredith's blood 1st?
He seems to recount closing his eyes and seeing red...



But wait a sec,
Toto still sees Amanda and [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] from his park bench,
esh, how can I make this work out?

I can't,
I'm not Italian.

And where did Hekuran Kokomani disappear to
after he chatted with the tow truck driver?
To the club also?

 

[Vixen]

That's why you shouldn't discuss trading in your car on the purchase deal. Amanda and Raffaele were not aware that the police considered them suspects; it was the duty of the police to inform them, and to supply fair lawyers if they did not have lawyers.

Amanda was told she was a suspect as soon as she confessed to witnessing the crime and leading the alleged assailant there. The witness statement interview was promptly halted.

As for the advice you should refuse to comment to police. Absolutely. If you are guilty.

An innocent person upholds the law and has an alibi.

 

[Bill Williams]

Amanda was told she was a suspect as soon as she confessed to witnessing the crime and leading the alleged assailant there. The witness statement interview was promptly halted.

As for the advice you should refuse to comment to police. Absolutely. If you are guilty.

An innocent person upholds the law and has an alibi.

You don't really believe that do you?

 

[Vixen]

Hey folks,
let's help them Guiltards do a time line, ok?

So Toto sees Amanda and [SIZE="-10"]Raff [/SIZE]hanging out,
from 9:27 pm onwards. What's Rudy doing?
Hanging out in Meredith's kitchen, on the couch,
makin' out, fooling around and having some **** luv?

Or was Meredith laying on her bed,
playing with her phone for a few hours
instead of studying that History book that she had just borrowed,
titled Early Modern Europe, 1450-1789, written in English,
that Robyn wanted back in the morning at class?

(Dumb chicks,
they didn't even know it was an Italian holiday
and that there wasn't gonna be any class in session the next day, duh!)

Odd that it was kinda chilly that night
and yet once inside her flat Meredith kept her jacket on and never bothered to turn on the heat
nor slip into some comfy pajama's,
after she ate a mushroom...

Hey vixen,
since you are from a different part of the beach,
err make that the woods, than where I am from,
I gotta ask ya a question: When you get home,
do you still wear your jacket for hours + hours
and not turn on your bedroom heater if you're all alone
on a chilly night?

Maybe Rudy ain't on the couch smotchin' and foolin' around with Meredith,
a lil' hootchie who, if ya believe Rudy Guede, invites boyz back to her crib, no not when leaving a club after partying with the dude all night, but the next night when she knows, yep, just knows that all the other girls + her downstairs boyfriend -(who is visiting his relatives on holiday), won't be home that night where she lives...

So where is Rudy Guede?
Why doesn't Toto see him that night?
'Cause he's black, maybe wearin' dark clothing?
Hmmm, odd, that...

Was Guid-O gettin' drugs for them 3 to party,
to party with Meredith?

What are Amanda and [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] doin?
Still hangin' outside, arguin' as Antonio Curatolo said?
Or inside, makin' out, foolin' around,
which made "poor Rudy",
who wasn't get any, kinda horny,
as I believe it was what Judge Massei wrote?


Didn't some people, seen on CCTV,
turn and stare in the direction of Meredith's flat around this time?
I wonder why?

Surely in a sex game gone wrong,
Meredith was never blindfolded, her mouth ball-gagged
and she had her arms and ankles tied up somewhere, right?

OK,
it's after 10:00pm,
somehow Meredith's phone pings from somewhere else, I seem to recall, right?
Did she go for an evening walk?

Odd how her cell phone
did not reach her bank when she tried to,
what, check her available balance?

Odd to is that a car broke down right soon after this time, right in front of the driveway area of Meredith's flat. But the occupants and the tow truck driver never noticed anything strange goin' on at the Meredith's cottage, or the surrounding area.

But yet Hekuran Kokomani states that he had a conversation with the tow truck driver, heck he asked him directions! Weird!
I wonder where Koko's car was parked?

Then afterwards,
Nara hears a scream and 2 people fleeing, right?
I wonder, does she think it was the Amanda or The [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] that was fleeing near her double paned windows?

For we know that it was not Rudy Guede,
because, because, because well he tried to save Meredith,
heck he went to her bathroom and got 3 towels to help staunch the blood,
(all at the same time, or did he go back again, again, and again for 1 more towel?)

I wonder if Rudy put his hand, his fingers over the wound to slow the flow of Meredith's blood 1st?
He seems to recount closing his eyes and seeing red...



But wait a sec,
Toto still sees Amanda and [SIZE="-10"]Raff[/SIZE] from his park bench,
esh, how can I make this work out?

I can't,
I'm not Italian.

And where did Hekuran Kokomani disappear to
after he chatted with the tow truck driver?
To the club also?

First of all, it is important to realise the rape scence was carefully rearranged.

Mez' jeans were pulled off and yet not inside out, but arranged neatly. Objects were carefully arranged on the bed. The body moved by a sheet, police believe, so it could not be seen from the car park.

As I believe Mez was subjected to a prolonged false imprisonment by the three - police identified the mushroom as coming from a punnet in Raff's flat and Sophie confirmed there were no mushrooms in the meal they ate to watch the DVD 'The Notebook' - perhaps she was made to share in a meal she declined.

CCTV and mobile pings indicate Amanda arrived at the cottage almost the same time as Mez, a figure can be seen following her in, thought to be Rudy.

Kokomani came back from Albania to voluntarily testify to police he had seen Rudy, Raff and Amanda hiding behind the garbage bins outside the house as though waiting for someone, the night before. Rudy aggressively demanded his car. Koko got scared and threw olives and stuff at them as he tried to accelerate away. Amanda was waving a large kitchen knife. Koko knew Rudy from working together on a farm. He explained Amanda was cutting a birthday cake with it. Koko claimed Raff ran after him, trying to block his exit.

The dark car seen on the murder night could have been Raff's.

AIUI Raff and Amanda started having sex and wanted to force "vampire" Mez to join in. She was teased and hazed by the three in their drugged up aggression and fantasy.

After her death, the scene was staged to look like rape and the arms of her coat could have been pulled inside out, in the same way her other clothes were a mise en scene, together with the burglary.

They had all night.

Raff and Amanda ran to Plaza Grimana, where Curatolo did witness them.

No doubt they were on watch to see whether any of the neighbours had heard the dreadful scream, and the police were on their way.

 

[Antony]

Amanda was told she was a suspect as soon as she confessed to witnessing the crime and leading the alleged assailant there. The witness statement interview was promptly halted.

As for the advice you should refuse to comment to police. Absolutely. If you are guilty.

An innocent person upholds the law and has an alibi.

So all the police ever have to do is find someone with no alibi - say, they've spent the evening alone watching TV - and bingo! they've solved the crime!

What do you do if the police arrest your alibi and charge him with jointly committing the crime?