Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[Robert Harris]

Which obviously means the planners of the assassination had to accept that bullets from multiple weapons would likely be recovered, therefore no attempt to conceal the existence of multiple shooters would make a scrap of sense.

Why would they care? They wanted the world to think this was a communist conspiracy, and it almost worked. The DPD stated in their indictment of Oswald that it was exactly that. But LBJ wasn't interested in another crisis which could have ended very badly.

So it makes no sense to spirit away any second rifle in the book depository and it makes no sense to give some shooters inaccurate suppressed weapons while others fire high velocity rifles.

It makes perfect sense. The last of the suppressed shots was fired at 223, when the limo was about 100 feet from the Daltex. It was after that, that the high powered rifles were used.

Unless of course your conspiracy theory expands to become "everyone was in on it" in which case your claim of parsimony looks even sillier than before.

It's not silly at all. Marcello ordered the assassination, just as he swore he was going to do and just as he said he did. Ruby was connected to him, as was Braden.

Consider Joe Campisi who met with Ruby just before and then just after he shot Oswald. PBS Frontline is considered one of the most objective organizations to investigate this case. This is how they described the Campisis,

In 1963, Sam and Joe Campisi were leading figures in the Dallas underworld. Jack knew the Campisis and had been seen with them on many occasions. The Campisis were lieutenants of Carlos Marcello, the Mafia boss who had reportedly talked of killing the President

Marcello told Langinham that Ruby was his money man. He made the bribes and sucked up to the cops. This crime just reeks of Marcello's involvement.

 

[Tomtomkent]

Why would they care? They wanted the world to think this was a communist conspiracy, and it almost worked. The DPD stated in their indictment of Oswald that it was exactly that. But LBJ wasn't interested in another crisis which could have ended very badly.

And the way to convince the world it was a communist conspiracy was to remove all trace of a second rifle, and to go to considerable length to tell the world it was Oswald alone?

 

[Regnad Kcin]

I'm sure you'll get the same canned response all CTs give to that question. "Since the FBI was in on the crime, they'll never listen to me!"

Not to mention:

My experience has been that none of the major newspapers will even consider JFK conspiracy theories these day.

It's a nice, comfy little cocoon, undisturbed by big, bad reality.

But hey, plenty of "Likes!"

 

[Robert Harris]

Just curious, Robert. Any particular reason you have the limo at the wrong angle to what it should be (a roughly 4 degree downward slope as the car approached the overpass).

Was that just inadvertent? Posting incorrect graphics isn't very persuasive.

And wouldn't using frame 312 (adjusted for the slope of the street) be far better to illustrate this than the blurry image you choose to use above?

And if you correct the image to the correct slope, does the fragment from JFK's head then go over the windshield at a smaller angle by about four degrees?

READ THE FREAKIN CAPTION SO THAT YOU CAN STOP EMBARRASSING YOURSELF.

What does the very first line say?

Or, does it not need to go over the windshield at all? Could a fragment of a shot from the Depository at Z313, given the location of Tague and the limousine, exit at a lower angle and miss the windshield on the left side of the car?

I am not going to spend my morning doing drawings for you. YOU made the assertion, so YOU need to prove it, or more accurately, confirm that it had to go over the windshield.

I am reminded that a large piece of JFK's skull was found in the grass forward and to the left of the location of the limousine at the time of the head shot.

Yes, but the ones that went off to the left, didn't strike Tague or land anywhere near him.

If a piece of skull could travel that far without striking the windshield, why couldn't a fragment of a bullet travel to Tague, who was likewise forward and to the left of the limo at the time of the head shot?

Tague was to the right, or north of the limo's path, but the smear was dead on, straight ahead.

You've got the horizontal angle incorrect by about four degrees.

WTH are you talking about? There was no four degree error. The only error was you thinking that first image was from DP, but even if it had been, the angles were relative to the road and would still have been correct.

Can you provide the vertical angle here (e.g., looking down on the car with the limo overlaid on a map of Dealey Plaza - like an aerial shot)?

Of course I can, but I've already posted 20 times as much evidence as you have, so you can support your own claims. And besides, since all my work is crap, why would you ever trust it

 

[Robert Harris]

And the way to convince the world it was a communist conspiracy was to remove all trace of a second rifle, and to go to considerable length to tell the world it was Oswald alone?

Do you guys have a contest going to see who can invent the most ridiculous argument?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Why would they care? They wanted the world to think this was a communist conspiracy...

So they had no reason to try to conceal the existence of a second rifle, yet they exposed themselves to the risk of some of the conspirators being detected and caught doing so.

Dumb plan is dumb.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

Do you guys have a contest going to see who can invent the most ridiculous argument?

I can't speak for anyone else but I recognise when I'm outclassed on that score.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Do you guys have a contest going to see who can invent the most ridiculous argument?

Yes, we do, and I've nominated a couple of your best efforts. Look up the Stundies thread.

Dave

 

[Jack by the hedge]

It makes perfect sense. The last of the suppressed shots was fired at 223, when the limo was about 100 feet from the Daltex. It was after that, that the high powered rifles were used.

Multiple guns = multiple bullet types = obviously must expect forensics to prove conspiracy. So any plan which relies on concealing that fact is dunderheaded and must be expected to fail.

It's not silly at all...

My point was that the only way you could plan to make multiple shooters look like a lone nut is if your conspiracy net spread so wide that you can guarantee access to tamper with and suppress the evidence. Even then you are gambling that some guy with a cine camera doesn't film several shots coincidentally hitting the president in the space of a second or two.

It might make an amusing episode of the X Files, but how long do you imagine it took the mafia to infiltrate their sinister place-men into all the agencies required to be ready to spirit away evidence from under the noses of the authorities?

 

[Robert Harris]

I'm still chuckling about that. Harris' notion of "the real world" is YouTube?

Youtube currently has 1 billion active users.

Yeah, I would call that about as "real world" as things get, wouldn't you?

And the fact that most of the people who rate my 285 presentations, give me thumbs up, proves that folks with no axes to grind see exactly what I and everyone else sees, whether they admit it or not.

I think you see exactly the same thing they do and I do, don't you Jay? Isn't that why you refused to answer my question about what you think is the most probable cause of those reactions?

Even without the corroborations from the scientists and the large majority of other witnesses, those reactions all by themselves, resolve this issue.

So does the fact that the reactions to the early shots were were vastly different from the later ones.

It shouldn't have been this simple. It should have been some sensational, complicated conspiracy, involving a cast of hundreds. But it was just about one very pissed off mobster and a handful of thugs.

 

[Border Reiver]

It shouldn't have been this simple. It should have been some sensational, complicated conspiracy, involving a cast of hundreds. But it was just about one very pissed off mobster and a handful of thugs.

Who had apparently one sniper using a weapon that made no sound, hit nothing and left no traces, and another to be the patsy to get blamed so the Cubans could take the fall, the US would go to war and the Mob gets their casinos back? All dependent on people to do what they were supposed to and never ever talk after being arrested?

Parsimony does not support your theory.

The physical evidence does not support your theory.

And when people involved were arrested and interogated by police, no one ever went - "I have some information about the Kennedy assassination that you'd like to know, and in return for taking the death penalty off the table/dropping some of the charges/etc. I'll tell you all about it."

 

[Tolls]

It shouldn't have been this simple. It should have been some sensational, complicated conspiracy, involving a cast of hundreds. But it was just about one very pissed off mobster and a handful of thugs.

Except your theory expands to encompass more than a handful of thugs.
We already have a Mauser apparently being discovered and then forgotten about, and 399 not being from Oswalds gun, so that had to have been planted.

 

[Robert Harris]

Where do you think I got the numbers from? "90% of who rated" is a pretty desperate spin, Bob;

No sir, it is the truth. Most people don't rate videos. We can only calculate those who do, but as any pollster will tell you, the votes of a relatively small sampling, usually reflect the opinions of the rest.

And my response was to someone claiming that no one agreed with me, which was of course, another ridiculous allegation.

But kudos for creativity, trying to turn a 90% approval rating upside down. I guess if I had 10% approvals, you would be much more impressed

 

[Belz...]

Youtube currently has 1 billion active users.

Yeah, I would call that about as "real world" as things get, wouldn't you?

No, I really wouldn't, and neither should you.

Even without the corroborations from the scientists and the large majority of other witnesses, those reactions all by themselves, resolve this issue.

No they don't. Not only have you failed to show that these movements are what you claim they are, but your conclusion is unsupported even if they are. You're a long way from the finish line, here.

It shouldn't have been this simple. It should have been some sensational, complicated conspiracy, involving a cast of hundreds. But it was just about one very pissed off mobster and a handful of thugs.

Prove it.

 

[Jack by the hedge]

... as any pollster will tell you, the votes of a relatively small sampling, usually reflect the opinions of the rest.

Ask any pollster about the difference between a small sample carefully selected to be a representative cross-section and a small self-selecting sample.

 

[Robert Harris]

Except your theory expands to encompass more than a handful of thugs.
We already have a Mauser apparently being discovered and then forgotten about, and 399 not being from Oswalds gun, so that had to have been planted.

CE399 is a bullet, not a gun.

And I was very specific, that the govt's coverup was benign. The assassination initially appeared to be connected to Cuba, which is what the DPD claimed. If the public accepted that, there would have been a huge outcry to attack Cuba, which could have led to a very nasty crisis that ended in a nuclear war.

I think LBJ was sincere in that belief, as were most of the FBI and justice dept people, who carried out that coverup.

But I feel 98% certain, that the actual crime was indeed, caused by Marcello and a handful of his thugs.

 

[Robert Harris]

Ask any pollster about the difference between a small sample carefully selected to be a representative cross-section and a small self-selecting sample.

How exactly, did I get to "select" the viewers

These are just people who are interested in the JFK case.

What do you think were the cause of those reactions?

 

[Jack by the hedge]

How exactly, did I get to "select" the viewers

These are just people who are interested in the JFK case.

What do you think were the cause of those reactions?

You misunderstand. I did not say you selected the viewers. I said the voters (and non-voters) selected themselves. If you are confused about the implications of that, please do consult a pollster.

Regarding the reactions, if you are now referring back to the Zapruder film, I already gave you my opinion at some length more than once in this thread.

 

[Tolls]

CE399 is a bullet, not a gun.

Yes, I know, that's why I said:
...and 399 not being from Oswalds gun...

It was a couple of things that clearly had to have some external input, and not just from a "handful of thugs". Both happened on the day itself, not as part of some later back covering.

How can misplacing a rifle (the Mauser) and planting evidence (399) be "benign"? Both are actively scuppering an investigation, and so expand your little conspiracy well beyond those thugs.

 

[Belz...]

And I was very specific, that the govt's coverup was benign.

Benign or not, it is unproven.

But I feel 98% certain, that the actual crime was indeed, caused by Marcello and a handful of his thugs.

Based on nothing, apparently.