Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Sergei Walankov]

"(Hodges) arrives at a fair and and extremely detailed and not unkind analyses (sic) of both the presumed perp and those hangers-on who surround them" - Peter Quennell.

"She became a vagina vampire" - Andrew Hodges.

"Peter Quennell has a brilliant mind and ********* detector" - Vixen.

 

[Numbers]

We still have the actual people involved with the exception of Giobbi not verifying the order. Matteini wasn't at the station AFAIK. Perhaps she was at an FOA meeting, oops not formed yet. We also know for a certainty that Mignini et al. were asking Matteini to hold Amanda.

Since you have recently be blessed with wildly creative mind perhaps you can figure out why Amanda being arrested because her mother was arriving would be mentioned in the hearing in May.

I don't see why, if true, the mother's arrival would have anything to do with denying house rest in May.

Maybe by May the FOA propaganda was already impacting the case including Matteini



Perhaps there are other truths in Matteini.

Methos where did you find it or how? Is the whole hearing available for cut and paste translating?

Grinder,
Didn't you hear about the Masonic conspiracy to set up the FOA, which began long before Amanda even left for Italy? That's how Giobbi and Matteini became special "FOA secret agents" so early.

Matteini was perhaps just adding information that she knew the ECHR would find useful when the case came before it.

 

[christianahannah]

I think we can put this one to rest finally
Motivazioni-Matteini-denying-Knox-house-arrest-15-May-2008.pdf
Page 10:

Per quanto attiene, infine, il pericolo di fuga, questo è sempre presente in quanto si consideri che la famiglia della ragazza vive negli Stati Uniti e quindi vi potrebbe essere una estrema facilità per la medesima di lasciare il nostro paese; la circostanza che non l’abbia fatto prima del fermo è del tutto irrilevante in quanto, si ricorda, il fermo è stato molto tempestivo ed attuato prima che arrivasse in Italia la madre di Amanda al fine proprio di evitare situazioni del genere.

I see this as an afterthought from Matteini meaning Edda's arrival wasn't the reason (or even a reason) Amanda was arrested/detained on November 5 but that the arrest took away any chance that such a flight would happen (with Edda or anyone else from the United States) arriving in Italy later (if Amanda had not been arrested).

I don't know if I am making myself clear, however, maybe someone else can read the above and see if I am reading this passage wrong which I very well may be and adding more to it than was written.

 

[Grinder]

It indicates nothing of the sort. I wonder if you're aware that on Mar 27 the pair have been exonerated, and Rudy is still in prison?

Found not guilty for now.

One thing that has always baffled me about FOA/IIP is that they seem to feel they need to deny every claim.

Let's say the evidence points to torture and multiple attackers. The prosecution still needs to prove those other than Rudi were the kids, which they didn't do.

Even if Amanda was a sociopath or had some other mental condition (which I have no idea about) that wouldn't be evidence that she killed Meredith or anyone. I suppose that if a suspect had a history of progressing violence against animals and people that would be significant.

One of the reasons that I have kept on exploring Koko and the potential for other accomplices is that it is as possible that they were with Rudi answering the multiple killers leaving out the kids.

I accept that it is possible that Rudi either made a date with Meredith or thought he had one or just showed up that night and later broke the window fearing she had let her friends know.

Whether or not Rudi was the sole burglar or one at all at the lawyers' office it is totally bizarre that the kids would stage a break in using a large rock. The PGP used to speculate they had read about the lawyers' job in the local crime section - which we know doesn't exist or the Diaz story would have been found by now.

 

[Grinder]

Per quanto attiene, infine, il pericolo di fuga, questo è sempre presente in quanto si consideri che la famiglia della ragazza vive negli Stati Uniti e quindi vi potrebbe essere una estrema facilità per la medesima di lasciare il nostro paese; la circostanza che non l’abbia fatto prima del fermo è del tutto irrilevante in quanto, si ricorda, il fermo è stato molto tempestivo ed attuato prima che arrivasse in Italia la madre di Amanda al fine proprio di evitare situazioni del genere.

I see this as an afterthought from Matteini meaning Edda's arrival wasn't the reason (or even a reason) Amanda was arrested/detained on November 5 but that the arrest took away any chance that such a flight would happen (with Edda or anyone else from the United States) arriving in Italy later (if Amanda had not been arrested).

I don't know if I am making myself clear, however, maybe someone else can read the above and see if I am reading this passage wrong which I very well may be and adding more to it than was written.

This makes sense. She said that Amanda couldn't leave with her mother because she was already in the clink. That at least doesn't make it look like they did what the conspiracists would have us believe. There is no reason Matteini would say that the police conspired to arrest her.

 

[Grinder]

Grinder,
Didn't you hear about the Masonic conspiracy to set up the FOA, which began long before Amanda even left for Italy? That's how Giobbi and Matteini became special "FOA secret agents" so early.

Matteini was perhaps just adding information that she knew the ECHR would find useful when the case came before it.

This truly is some of your best thinking on the issue. I will be waiting with bated breath for the ECHR ruling and the Masonic angle.

 

[Antony]

Wrong. Conti & Vecchiotti are in disgrace for perverting the course of justice.

No. This is just another of your invented claims.

They were ordered by a court to test the DNA in question (i) and they declined without making a legal application to the court to do so, falsely claiming (a) it was potato starch, and (b) too low LCN.

Another misrepresentation. Hellmann did not request the testing of the last sample as he didn't see it as necessary. C&V correctly found that there was no trace of the victim's DNA on the knife (only bread starch - not potato IIRC), and that Stefanoni's methods and documentation were inadequate. The non-testing of 36i was then taken as one of the pretexts to send the case back, by the corrupt March 2013 ISC decision.

The Rome laboratory demonstrated beyond doubt, it was not only testible, it was a clear DNA of Amanda.

Exactly. Amanda's DNA on the knife was never in dispute, and means nothing in the case, as the knife was proved not to be the murder weapon.

C&V attempted to pervert the course of justice with rogue judge Hellmann's complicity (and he wonders why his nickname amongst the judiciary is "Pontius Pilate").

Nencini's report was annulled because there was a bent element in the Cassazzione. Avv Bongiornio IMV perverted the course of justice by strategically diverting the case away from First Supreme Court.

Well, of course others have pointed out that this is entirely the purpose of the appeal court.

The acquittal is a Mickey Mouse verdict by a Minnie Mouse court.

The motivation report will read like Donald Duck: a whole load of quackery.

In your dreams.

You are factually wrong. You are conflating two different samples. The LCN sample near the knife point is Mez' at 15 points of the DNA, the legal standard being just 11.

Irrelevant. The legal standard is also that the test has to be repeatable. Stefanoni's single, uncorroborated (and scientifically unsound) test cannot be taken to be conclusive.

Both prosection and defense agree it is Mez' DNA.

What? Maybe you are thinking that the defence agreed that Amanda's DNA was on the handle. There is no victim's DNA on this knife.

The identification of LCN was far less developed in 2008 than it was when Rome tested a different sample, near the top of the blade at the handle, which C&V without authority, refused to test.

ETA This was found to be the DNA of Amanda, and its position indicated it was gripped by Amanda in an grip by which the blade faced upwards, as Amanda plunged the knife downwards into Mez' neck, with an ugly sawing motion to cause a wound that seasoned detectives said was the most savage they had ever seen.

This is a joke. No such conclusion can be drawn from the "position" of DNA on the handle. Yes, the claim was made by the prosecution, but it only underlines that their case was based on pseudo-science and other nonsense.

Conti & Vecchiotti attempted to pervert the course of justice IMV and I saw a photo of their labs forcibly closed down, apparently.

"Apparently"? I don't know the details of this, but more credible posters than you have reported that the issues with the lab used by C&V did not relate to this case, and concerned other scientists not connected with the 2 of them.

 

[Vixen]

We have a photo of the lying bum sitting on his park bench around 3pm on November 2.

Moral: Never underestimate the perceptive powers of the nearby bum, if you are planning a crime.

 

[Bill Williams]

Another misrepresentation. Hellmann did not request the testing of the last sample as he didn't see it as necessary. C&V correctly found that there was no trace of the victim's DNA on the knife (only bread starch - not potato IIRC), and that Stefanoni's methods and documentation were inadequate. The non-testing of 36i was then taken as one of the pretexts to send the case back, by the corrupt March 2013 ISC decision.

Of all the errors of any of the previous courts, it is bizarre that Chieffi would cite 36I has being a pretext to annul Hellmann.

One would think that the non-testing of the presumed semen stain would rate higher on the list. Also, the pretext Chieffi used about 36I was not so much that it was not tested in Hellmann's court, it was that Chieffi said that Hellmann had abrogated his judicial authority by in effect letting Conti-Vecchiotti make the decision for him. This was yet another of those "judicially created factoids" that did not relate so much to primary evidence, circumstantial or otherwise, but to evidence created by the court.

At this point, post-exoneration, it goes down as one of those odd things which simply unduly stratechd out this judicial soap-opera.

 

[Vixen]

Andrew Hodges is one sick mofo. There's talk of reporting him to the Alabama State Board of Medical Examiners. The man is a fraud.

[qimg]https://scontent-lax1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/s480x480/11742791_10207872901366201_7575281087230911887_n.jpg?oh=d6bff332a621b5357e13b1a87640c31c&oe=561E83DD[/qimg]

I have his book as a PDF that I can upload if anyone wants to see how deranged he is.

Twisted reasoning. The persons who committed the crime have criminal borderline personality disorder, and you do them no favours by declaring them "innocent" and attacking the police.

 

[Numbers]

Per quanto attiene, infine, il pericolo di fuga, questo è sempre presente in quanto si consideri che la famiglia della ragazza vive negli Stati Uniti e quindi vi potrebbe essere una estrema facilità per la medesima di lasciare il nostro paese; la circostanza che non l’abbia fatto prima del fermo è del tutto irrilevante in quanto, si ricorda, il fermo è stato molto tempestivo ed attuato prima che arrivasse in Italia la madre di Amanda al fine proprio di evitare situazioni del genere.

I see this as an afterthought from Matteini meaning Edda's arrival wasn't the reason (or even a reason) Amanda was arrested/detained on November 5 but that the arrest took away any chance that such a flight would happen (with Edda or anyone else from the United States) arriving in Italy later (if Amanda had not been arrested).

I don't know if I am making myself clear, however, maybe someone else can read the above and see if I am reading this passage wrong which I very well may be and adding more to it than was written.

I must rely on Google translate or the help of those who are bilingual for the translation, but logically, how could Amanda leave Italy if she was under house arrest (which can be electronically monitored according to Italian law) and her passport was seized?

ETA: It also seems that this statement occurs near the very end of the 11 page document, but before the summing up that (I think) begins: For all these reasons.... (Da tutte considerazioni...).

 

[MichaelB]

Twisted reasoning. The persons who committed the crime have criminal borderline personality disorder, and you do them no favours by declaring them "innocent" and attacking the police.

Yes the person who committed the crime, Rudy Guede, is a borderline personality type. That's what the shrink his attorneys hired said.

http://www.leggo.it/life/libri/mere...udy_testimoni_in_appello/notizie/222674.shtml

 

[Vixen]

No. This is just another of your invented claims.


Another misrepresentation. Hellmann did not request the testing of the last sample as he didn't see it as necessary. C&V correctly found that there was no trace of the victim's DNA on the knife (only bread starch - not potato IIRC), and that Stefanoni's methods and documentation were inadequate. The non-testing of 36i was then taken as one of the pretexts to send the case back, by the corrupt March 2013 ISC decision.

Factually incorrect. They were ordered by the Supreme court to test the specific sample 36(i). The Mez DNA on the knife had been accepted by Massei, Nencini and Chieffi. Cannot be rescinded by the ISC without remitting it back to a lower Merits (fact finding) court.

ISC do not have the jurisdiction to reject evidence already found by two courts.

Exactly. Amanda's DNA on the knife was never in dispute, and means nothing in the case, as the knife was proved not to be the murder weapon.

Actual falsehood. C&V claimed it was LCN and untestable and probably potato starch.

Well, of course others have pointed out that this is entirely the purpose of the appeal court.


In your dreams.



Irrelevant. The legal standard is also that the test has to be repeatable. Stefanoni's single, uncorroborated (and scientifically unsound) test cannot be taken to be conclusive.

Incorrect. In a forensic investigation where perps have gone to great lengths to eradicate evidence, a trace of highly significant evidence is permissible, taken as a whole with overall evidence. There is no innocent explanation for Mez' DNA to be on that knife. Raff and Amanda went to some lengths to preclude this evidence. They knew what could be found. Amanda's involuntary Autonomous Nervous System went into nervous breakdown overdrive when cops took her to look through a knife drawer.

What? Maybe you are thinking that the defence agreed that Amanda's DNA was on the handle. There is no victim's DNA on this knife.

Mez' DNA on the blade is a scientific fact. As is Raff's extremely strong DNA evidence is on the bra clasp, and his distinctive size 42 hammer-toed bloody footprint is on the bathmat.

This is a joke. No such conclusion can be drawn from the "position" of DNA on the handle. Yes, the claim was made by the prosecution, but it only underlines that their case was based on pseudo-science and other nonsense.


"Apparently"? I don't know the details of this, but more credible posters than you have reported that the issues with the lab used by C&V did not relate to this case, and concerned other scientists not connected with the 2 of them.

DNA and footprint analysis is not "pseudo-science" (you wish!). It is remarkably strong physical evidence of the pair's presence at the murder scene, together with their multiple changing alibis, which no-one can verify, witnesses who saw them and their numerous lies in their self-serving books.

 

[carbonjam72]

Found not guilty for now.

One thing that has always baffled me about FOA/IIP is that they seem to feel they need to deny every claim.

Let's say the evidence points to torture and multiple attackers. The prosecution still needs to prove those other than Rudi were the kids, which they didn't do.

Even if Amanda was a sociopath or had some other mental condition (which I have no idea about) that wouldn't be evidence that she killed Meredith or anyone. I suppose that if a suspect had a history of progressing violence against animals and people that would be significant.

One of the reasons that I have kept on exploring Koko and the potential for other accomplices is that it is as possible that they were with Rudi answering the multiple killers leaving out the kids.
I accept that it is possible that Rudi either made a date with Meredith or thought he had one or just showed up that night and later broke the window fearing she had let her friends know.

Whether or not Rudi was the sole burglar or one at all at the lawyers' office it is totally bizarre that the kids would stage a break in using a large rock. The PGP used to speculate they had read about the lawyers' job in the local crime section - which we know doesn't exist or the Diaz story would have been found by now.

Grinder,

"Even if Amanda ('you') was a sociopath or had some other mental condition (which I have no idea about) that wouldn't" - make it any more possible for multiple assailants to leave only Rudy Guede's footprints in wet blood in the murder room, and leave only footprints, fingerprints, palmprints and DNA in the murder room and on and in Meredith's body.

IIUC, its a scientific impossibility that anyone could have participated along with Guede in that violent bloody murder, and not left similar traces of themselves as Rudy did. (As per Mark Waterbury, PHD/FOA).

For this reason, Rudy's explanation that he was on a date with meredith, and that someone else committed the crime, but not himself, is similarly a scientific impossibility.

Instead of referring to "FOA" 'friends of Amanda', may I suggest you refer to the very same people instead as, "FOS" 'friends of science'.

 

[Bill Williams]

Factually incorrect. They were ordered by the court to test the specific sample 36(i). The Mez DNA on the knife had been accepted by Massei, Nencini and Chieffi. Cannot be rescinded by the ISC without remitting it back to a lower Merits (fact finding) court.

ISC do not have the jurisdiction to reject evidence already found by two courts.




Actual falsehood. C&V claimed it was LCN and untestable and probably potato starch.




Incorrect. In a forensic investigation where perps have gone to great lengths to eradicate evidence, a trace of highly significant evidence is permissible, taken as a whole with overall evidence. There is no innocent explanation for Mez' DNA to be on that knife. Raff and Amanda went to some lengths to preclude this evidence. They knew what could be found. Amanda's involuntary Autonomous Nervous System went into nervous breakdown overdrive when cops took her to look through a knife drawer.




Mez' DNA on the blade is a scientific fact. As is Raff's extremely strong DNA evidence is on the bra clasp, and his distinctive size 42 hammer-toed bloody footprint is on the bathmat.




DNA and footprint analysis is not "pseudo-science" (you wish!). It is remarkably strong physical evidence of the pair's presence at the murder scene, together with their multiple alibis, which no-one can verify, witnesses who saw them and their numerous lies in their self-serving books.

The trouble is I read somewhere that the man advancing these, Nick van der Leek, is a Mason and purposely putting these factoids out there to spoof what remains of the guilter phenomenon.

Consider that "I read somewhere" is one of the bases for slow-flooding this thread, so cannot be argued against.

 

[christianahannah]

I must rely on Google translate or the help of those who are bilingual for the translation, but logically, how could Amanda leave Italy if she was under house arrest (which can be electronically monitored according to Italian law) and her passport was seized?

These things would not have been done before her arrest so in theory she could leave Italy even though the police told her no she couldn't leave in prior questionings (and this is what I think Matteini is referring to in the passage).

As far as denying house arrest to Amanda I think other reasons may have played more of a part - severity of crime, calunnia against Patrick, etc. but I have not read thevery motivations in full to be certain of this part.

 

[christianahannah]

We still have the actual people involved with the exception of Giobbi not verifying the order. Matteini wasn't at the station AFAIK. Perhaps she was at an FOA meeting, oops not formed yet. We also know for a certainty that Mignini et al. were asking Matteini to hold Amanda.

Since you have recently be blessed with wildly creative mind perhaps you can figure out why Amanda being arrested because her mother was arriving would be mentioned in the hearing in May.

I don't see why, if true, the mother's arrival would have anything to do with denying house rest in May.

Maybe by May the FOA propaganda was already impacting the case including Matteini

Perhaps there are other truths in Matteini.
Methos where did you find it or how? Is the whole hearing available for cut and paste translating?

This and other documents were recently added to the Meredith Wiki and I would imagine by now to the the Amanda Wiki. New is Amanda's Matteini hearing among other documents. Look at both wikis for new information.

 

[Bill Williams]

These things would not have been done before her arrest so in theory she could leave Italy even though the police told her no she couldn't leave in prior questionings (and this is what I think Matteini is referring to in the passage).

As far as denying house arrest to Amanda I think other reasons may have played more of a part - severity of crime, calunnia against Patrick, etc. but I have not read thevery motivations in full to be certain of this part.

From what I've read, the sole reason advanced for preventative detention was "flight risk". This was also the applied to Raffaele on the assumption that he would follow Amanda wherever she went.

What remains unexplained is the solitary confinement for Raffaele. IMO that can only be seen as punitive to get him to testify against Amanda.

 

[Mr Fied]

Mez' DNA on the blade is a scientific fact. As is Raff's extremely strong DNA evidence is on the bra clasp, and his distinctive size 42 hammer-toed bloody footprint is on the bathmat.

Wrong wrong and wrong.

Meredith's DNA on the blade is not a scientific fact. As was explained to Nencini, there must be at least two tests to confirm the results.

Ditto for Raff's DNA on the bra clasp.

The easy way around this is for the carefully stored evidence to be tested again.

Surely this must be a simple task because the wonderful scientists involved in the forensic examination wouldn't have done anything stupid like destroy evidence.

The footprint on the bathmat cannot be matched to anyone, but as has already been pointed out the measurements used to allege that it was Raff's footprint were wrong.

 

[christianahannah]

From what I've read, the sole reason advanced for preventative detention was "flight risk". This was also the applied to Raffaele on the assumption that he would follow Amanda wherever she went.

What remains unexplained is the solitary confinement for Raffaele. IMO that can only be seen as punitive to get him to testify against Amanda.

I agree with this as for the November 2007 hearing but I am not certain it applies as the sole reason in the appeal hearing but you may be correct as I am not going by having read the appeal motivations in full but rather going by memory of what I have read in journals (which I sometimes can misremember).