Greeks vote to reject incumbants, austerity

[dudalb]

People have short memories, so it should not be surprising that Twenty years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, old school hard line Marxism is making something of a comeback. There is a sucker born every minute.....

 

[GlennB]

As long as the crew includes some Germans, to bail it out.

Germans? Europe's worst repayers of debt and most-bailed-out-nation of the 20th century?

But, hey, anyone can be forgiven for starting a couple of World Wars, right?

 

[Giz]

Germans? Europe's worst repayers of debt and most-bailed-out-nation of the 20th century?

But, hey, anyone can be forgiven for starting a couple of World Wars, right?

That's what Euro project has done for European fellow feeling? Making a drachma out of a crisis?

 

[GlennB]

That's what Euro project has done for European fellow feeling? Making a drachma out of a crisis?

I should have put a smiley in there But, seriously, the Euro project was a catastrophe and yet you'd imagine that Germany might accept their part in the debacle and not gear their efforts in such a self-serving manner.

So, yes, this is exactly (and predictably) what the Euro has done for 'European fellow feeling' as its primary power, Germany, has neglected the 'best for all' motive in favour of 'best for Germany' throughout. And the cracks are becoming catastrophic, getting heavy responses internally and externally - USA, IMF, France, various Nobel Laureates and other experts in economics and politics. Greece was just the catalyst, while Merkel cannot escape her tried 'n trusted lethargic "We are Germany!" attitude, especially while Schaeuble is her FinMin.

 

[dudalb]

SO Germany is to blame for the idiocies of the Greek Governments?
I see some people really want to forget what got Greece into the situation where they needed a bail out in the first place:Irresponsible Government Spending.

 

[Brainster]

People have short memories, so it should not be surprising that Twenty years after the collapse of the Soviet Union, old school hard line Marxism is making something of a comeback. There is a sucker born every minute.....

That is the advantage and disadvantage of leftism; unlike conservatism, it refuses to acknowledge that prior generations had any wisdom to impart to us. Everything must be learned anew by each generation.

 

[jaydeehess]

These "leftards" might be the only ones able to save your precious system. At least that was, according to Varoufakis, the plan:

Who do you think would benefit from this development? A progressive left, that will rise Phoenix-like from the ashes of Europe’s public institutions? Or the Golden Dawn Nazis, the assorted neofascists, the xenophobes and the spivs? I have absolutely no doubt as to which of the two will do best from a disintegration of the eurozone. I, for one, am not prepared to blow fresh wind into the sails of this postmodern version of the 1930s. If this means that it is we, the suitably erratic Marxists, who must try to save European capitalism from itself, so be it. Not out of love for European capitalism, for the eurozone, for Brussels, or for the European Central Bank, but just because we want to minimise the unnecessary human toll from this crisis.

The left would face the same issues that the right would. HOW TO PAY for government expenses. Ok, so the left might slice away military spending but one cannot simply do away with defense entirely. One at least needs a Coast Guard and border agency. They might also cancel what is referred to as corporate welfare, tax breaks for eg. That would certainly not increase investment.
OTOH, the left would likely wish to keep unemployment benefits, pensions and retirement dates.

 

[Ts4EVER]

The left would face the same issues that the right would. HOW TO PAY for government expenses. Ok, so the left might slice away military spending but one cannot simply do away with defense entirely. One at least needs a Coast Guard and border agency. They might also cancel what is referred to as corporate welfare, tax breaks for eg. That would certainly not increase investment.
OTOH, the left would likely wish to keep unemployment benefits, pensions and retirement dates.

Yes, and pay for it by actually taxing the rich.

 

[hodgy]

I find it strange that people see this as a left versus right issue. Its really just a financial independence issue - i.e. the whole idea of having Greece use the same currency as Germany was a bloody stupid idea in the first place. In England, people on both left and right could come to the same conclusion (and did so).

 

[Ts4EVER]

I find it strange that people see this as a left versus right issue.

Maybe not a left vs right issue, but certainly a political one.

To quote Slavoj Zizek:

Tsipras and the former finance minister Yanis Varoufakis, who resigned on 6 July, talk as if they are part of an open political process where decisions are ultimately “ideological” (based on normative preferences), while the EU technocrats talk as if it is all a matter of detailed regulatory measures. When the Greeks reject this approach and raise more fundamental political issues, they are accused of lying, of avoiding concrete solutions, and so on. It is clear that the truth here is on the Greek side: the denial of “the ideological side” advocated by Dijsselbloem is ideology at its purest. It masks (falsely presents) as purely expert regulatory measures that are effectively grounded in politico-ideological decisions.

 

[Ziggurat]

Casual racism. How cute.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Seinfeld was right. Humor is now verboten.

 

[The Don]

Seinfeld was right. Humor is now verboten.

Or in the case of that post, absent

 

[dudalb]

Yes, and pay for it by actually taxing the rich.

Define Rich. A number of people think anybody who makes a buck more then they do are rich.

There is also a point where high tax rates on business become self destructive when the money flees and goes into a more friendly climate.

SOunds from your rhetoric that your idea of taxing the rich amounts to the government pretty much taking over the whole private sector. And we have seen how well that works.......

 

[GlennB]

Utter carnage at the EZ (FinMins) meeting tonight.

There are claims that Merkel was unaware that France was working hard to help Greece with their proposals (even though it was in every newsfeed), while Schaeuble had already drawn up a 'temporary Grexit plan', which now seems to have been leaked.

Then Finland, fearing collapse of its own government if it supports another bailout, rejects the Greek proposals.

Now it seems Italy has finally had enough of German scheming and is demanding they cut it out, stop plotting to humiliate Greece, and get in touch with the crisis facing the whole EZ.

Schaeuble is insane.

(unconfirmed reports via The Guardian, except the Schaeuble part. We all knew that anyway)

 

[caveman1917]

SO Germany is to blame for the idiocies of the Greek Governments?
I see some people really want to forget what got Greece into the situation where they needed a bail out in the first place:Irresponsible Government Spending.

You do know this is totally false? Greek government spending was average for Europe. The bailout didn't go to Greece, almost all of it went straight back to German and French banks. Greece was never bailed out, what was bailed out was German and French banks through Greece.

 

[caveman1917]

I'm a little surprised to learn that there is a Greek ship building industry.

I'm going to guess you also don't know about the Colonels' regime in Greece[*] that was installed by the allies after WW2? It was the regime that administered Greece during the Nazi occupation, but since there was a real danger of anti-capitalist revolution post WW2 in Greece the allies decided to keep them in charge and funded them (through the Marshall fund). The classic right-wing dictatorship so loved by liberal democracies when the people get a bit too rebellious. Anyway, this regime was intertwined with/controlled by the Greek shipbuilding magnates.

* the colonels' regime usually denotes the specific Junta regime of 1967-1974 after a coup d'état, but they had de facto control from after the end of the Greek civil war in 1950 up to the coup d'état in 1967.

 

[caveman1917]

That is the advantage and disadvantage of leftism; unlike conservatism, it refuses to acknowledge that prior generations had any wisdom to impart to us. Everything must be learned anew by each generation.

Yet in the former communist countries, especially East Germany, it is the generation who are old enough to have known both that are almost universally in favour of the socialist system. Maybe they just remember the full employment and free healthcare, education, housing, etc in a better way than some here would like.

 

[jaydeehess]

Yes, and pay for it by actually taxing the rich.

Define Rich. A number of people think anybody who makes a buck more then they do are rich.

There is also a point where high tax rates on business become self destructive when the money flees and goes into a more friendly climate.

SOunds from your rhetoric that your idea of taxing the rich amounts to the government pretty much taking over the whole private sector. And we have seen how well that works.......

Exactly. What Ts4EVER must mean is " tax the sort of rich". The truly rich will leave and become occasional tourists to Greece. Tax the small and medium businesses is what would happen. The large ones will simply move out and set up headquarters somewhere else.

 

[caveman1917]

The large ones will simply move out and set up headquarters somewhere else.

One can always implement import taxes on products of corporations that "set up headquarters elsewhere". Not much good their new headquarters will do them then.

 

[aleCcowaN]

Utter carnage at the EZ (FinMins) meeting tonight.

There are claims that Merkel was unaware that France was working hard to help Greece with their proposals (even though it was in every newsfeed), while Schaeuble had already drawn up a 'temporary Grexit plan', which now seems to have been leaked.

Then Finland, fearing collapse of its own government if it supports another bailout, rejects the Greek proposals.

Now it seems Italy has finally had enough of German scheming and is demanding they cut it out, stop plotting to humiliate Greece, and get in touch with the crisis facing the whole EZ.

Schaeuble is insane.

(unconfirmed reports via The Guardian, except the Schaeuble part. We all knew that anyway)

The Finnish are the best friends Greece has now (no sarcasm intended). I hope the Pope Francis of Western Geopolitical Creed (Mr. Obama, whom I like) won't call them to express his disapproval.