Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

My time line agrees with Mignini's.

So please list it for us, so we can see what you are really thinking actually occurred, in what order, and any basis you care to offer in support of your beliefs?

The famous Mach was similarly entreated to provide a narrative of the crime, and his version included Amanda and Raf immediately running out of the room after the stabbing (to account for only Rudy's footprints being found in wet blood), and an earlier version from Mach had Amanda and Raf sliding around on the bathmat (I can't explain Mach's reasoning on that one).

But this is progress, at least you;re acknowledging you believe something occurred at a point in time, regarding the location and activities of the alleged perpetrators.

Laying out your beliefs would at least allow for a discussion on the merits. Thanks in advance -

 

[Vixen]

There are so many logical fallacies here it is hard to know where to start.
1) Your gut instinct is not reliable it certainly is not a good basis for an argument. But good for you, at least you recognise that what you rely on is gut instinct, now you just need to realise that this may not represent the truth.
2) The situation in England with sub juice laws is different from Italy where there are none.
3) Where is your gold standard for accuracy?
4) you say history books are written by victors? So there are no histories on America written by Brits? No histories of WW2 by Germans or Japanese? Do you think that Japanese histories of WW2 are more accurate than American or British by virtue of their being losers?

I can assure you, the German newspapers pre-1944 are very different from what is written in German history books today. These newspapers are so sensitive, you have to place a special order.

To find out the Japanese viewpoint, I read Kazuo Ishiguro, who came to England aged five, from Nagasaki and thus has a special interest and is in a unique position to analyse the Japanese viewpoint and the downfall, simply because he is a gifted writer and mixes with all these older generation people.

So, yes, history gets to be written by the victors, otherwise we would be Greater Germania now and the Allies would be figures of scorn in the history books, rather than heroes.

I agree it is unethical for subjdice issues to be openly promulgated in the press.

However, Italy's system is still largely inquisitorial, as opposed to adversarial, which entails gathering as much info as possible.

 

[Grinder]

"In her statements, Amanda had repeatedly claimed that 'Meredith was my friend'. Upon hearing this, my family and I were naturally upset. Meredith had constantly complained to her friends and our family that she was unnerved about the strange men Amanda brought home, and also about Amanda's bad hygiene habits. A friend of Meredith's also stated that on a return flight to London from Perugia, Meredith had complained about Amanda for almost the entire journey."

Meredith John Kercher

Wow. Could you provide emails or texts that substantiate these charges? Strange that the boys downstairs didn't notice or most of her friends or the roommates. The bar tenders that knew her also didn't notice.

 

[analemma]

So please list it for us, so we can see what you are really thinking actually occurred, in what order, and any basis you care to offer in support of your beliefs?

The famous Mach was similarly entreated to provide a narrative of the crime, and his version included Amanda and Raf immediately running out of the room after the stabbing (to account for only Rudy's footprints being found in wet blood), and an earlier version from Mach had Amanda and Raf sliding around on the bathmat (I can't explain Mach's reasoning on that one).

But this is progress, at least you;re acknowledging you believe something occurred at a point in time, regarding the location and activities of the alleged perpetrators.

Laying out your beliefs would at least allow for a discussion on the merits. Thanks in advance -

That will never happen.

 

[Strozzi]

Vixen's formula for what is more credible

My gut instincts and experience (from researching British Museum Newspaper Library) are that early reports and police investigations tend to be more accurate than late PR, political and defense spin. I have mentioned this before. . . .

Vixen, my instinct is just the opposite from yours. When a potentially complicated or emotional news story appears that interests me, especially one involving multiple parties, I usually wait four or five days before going deeper than the headline or first paragraph because I know that 1) if it is a significant new story it will still be in the news a week from now, and 2) a lot of inaccurate and incomplete information will be reported in the first few days as investigations unfold that will be corrected in more comprehensive coverage a week later.

Are you aware that the earliest report of what Mignini allegedly suspected about Meredith's murder is that Meredith met a man at the halloween disco and invited him into her home the following night and that the man date-raped and killed her? That is allegedly what Mignini first conveyed to John Kercher. Mr. Kercher (allegedly) vehemently objected to Mignini's scenario, causing Mignini to think again.

Using your theory based on your "instincts and experience" that "early reports and police investigations tend to be more accurate than late PR, political and defense spin", Mignini's initial explanation for the murder would have been probably more credible because it was earlier than later scenarios in which interested parties provided information.

 

[acbytesla]

No Giobbi didn't tell them to bring both in. He just puffed himself up later to look like the star. The other cops and Amanda say it didn't happen. The cops at the station were pissed she showed up. Maybe he just thought he ordered it and was just another bad witness - we all know how bad eye witnesses are.

All we know is that they didn't call her in. There is nothing to back Giobbi except Giobbi and Frank's story from months later relating what a person that wasn't there said. I've looked for any other story from those dates and nada.

Amanda and most of the cops are not in position to say what Giobbi oredered and to whom. Your declaring that Giobbi is not telling the truth does not make it so.

 

[analemma]

Vixon accused Amanda of saying the complete opposite of what Amanda actually said.
Does that surprise anyone?

 

[analemma]

Wow. Could you provide emails or texts that substantiate these charges? Strange that the boys downstairs didn't notice or most of her friends or the roommates. The bar tenders that knew her also didn't notice.

Yes.
I agree.
Where is the proof of these charges?

 

[Vixen]

Vixen, my instinct is just the opposite from yours. When a potentially complicated or emotional news story appears that interests me, especially one involving multiple parties, I usually wait four or five days before going deeper than the headline or first paragraph because I know that 1) if it is a significant new story it will still be in the news a week from now, and 2) a lot of inaccurate and incomplete information will be reported in the first few days as investigations unfold that will be corrected in more comprehensive coverage a week later.

Are you aware that the earliest report of what Mignini allegedly suspected about Meredith's murder is that Meredith met a man at the halloween disco and invited him into her home the following night and that the man date-raped and killed her? That is allegedly what Mignini first conveyed to John Kercher. Mr. Kercher (allegedly) vehemently objected to Mignini's scenario, causing Mignini to think again.

Using your theory based on your "instincts and experience" that "early reports and police investigations tend to be more accurate than late PR, political and defense spin", Mignini's initial explanation for the murder would have been probably more credible because it was earlier than later scenarios in which interested parties provided information.

That is the routine cops go through. Most murders are committed by someone close, or someone known.

The fact police started with a premise some man followed her home, contradicts the claim "police were only interested in framing the kids".

What is interesting, is to note how a story breaks, how it develops and then follow the full trial or the court transcripts later.

 

[Numbers]

The following is a refutation of a point made some time ago by Machiavelli that a formal complaint in Italy's system would be a requirement for an ECHR judgment about police mistreatment of Amanda during her interrogation.

Yet another ECHR case of interest:
Grinenko v Ukraine 33627/06 15-11-2012

Grinenko maintained that Ukraine had violated his rights under Convention Articles 3 (prohibition of torture and inhuman or degrading treatment), 5 (right to liberty, prohibition against arbitrary detention), and 6 (right to a fair trial) in the course of a criminal case: an allegation that he had ordered a murder for hire.

1. Before the ECHR, Ukraine's defense was that Grinenko's application for violation of Article 3 was inadmissible because he had not followed proper procedures for a complaint in the Ukrainian justice system. He had repeatedly mentioned his compliant in court proceedings, but had not filed the appropriate formal complaint with the authorities.

Relevance: Amanda complained of police mistreatment in court but apparently did not file the formal complaint required in Italy.

ECHR judgment: State authorities must take action whenever there is any credible allegation of mistreatment by State agents, and statements by an alleged victim in court are adequate to bring such allegations to the level of requiring an effective investigation. Failure of Ukraine to conduct an effective investigation was thus a violation of Convention Article 3. See para. 61-63.

The above is an excerpt from a 4-point post on http://www.injusticeanywhereforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=3161. That post explores several parallels between the Grinenko case and Amanda's application to ECHR. The ECHR judged that Ukraine had violated Grinenko's Convention rights, including Article 6.1 with 6.3c, and I have no doubt that ECHR will also issue a judgment in Amanda's favor.

 

[kwill]

There is lots of evidence. For example, John Kercher in his book. Mez' friends in their statements. The email home to +25 people can hardly be described as "private", when Amanda therein urges these +25 people to talk to journalists (presumably to set off the spin set out in the email).

For shame.

Amanda's email directly says not to talk to journalists, but you read that to be code for go talk to journalists.

Others say that Meredith didn't like Amanda, but you read that to mean that Amanda didn't like Meredith.

Luckily, Amanda Knox isn't at the mercy of anybody with that kind of warped logic. She's here in Seattle among her friends and family -- people who never gave up on her and never took the sorts of allegations you make seriously for a nanosecond.

For shame.

 

[Vixen]

Wow. Could you provide emails or texts that substantiate these charges? Strange that the boys downstairs didn't notice or most of her friends or the roommates. The bar tenders that knew her also didn't notice.

Mez' father ought to know.

 

[Strozzi]

"In her statements, Amanda had repeatedly claimed that 'Meredith was my friend'. Upon hearing this, my family and I were naturally upset. Meredith had constantly complained to her friends and our family that she was unnerved about the strange men Amanda brought home, and also about Amanda's bad hygiene habits. A friend of Meredith's also stated that on a return flight to London from Perugia, Meredith had complained about Amanda for almost the entire journey."

Meredith John Kercher

Sophie and Robin and a few other British girls were gossips and willful pawns used (played) by Mignini. They must have difficulty accepting that Amanda is innocent of the murder and was wrongfully persecuted by the PLE for a crime she did not commit. They contributed to that persecution.

I don't know if the Kercher family is religious, but I hope they are as it is comfort to people who suffer the loss of a loved one. I hope they believe in (a) God and a heaven as that will provide them with some measure of comfort to believe that their souls will be reunited with their daughter's for eternity. If they are reunited with their daughter in a heaven they will learn who murdered Meredith and the error they made in blaming Amanda and Raffaele and helping to persecute them.

Any of the Kerchers who understand basic scientific concepts could figure out what really happened, and those Kerchers who don't understand science could ask a trusted scientist-friend to explain it to them

 

[Strozzi]

Mez' father ought to know.

I saw references indicating that one of the Kercher parents believes that Amanda murdered their daughter because Mez was so good (pure) and that Amanda attacked her for that. That sounds like a Mignini or Maresca line. What sick nonsense!

 

[analemma]

However, Italy's system is still largely inquisitorial, as opposed to adversarial, which entails gathering as much info as possible.

And the system makes every effort to ignore every piece of info that will benefit the American witch.
Do you know that every single one of the thirty requests that that the lawyers of Amanda made to examine evidence more closely was rejected by Judge Nencini?
Every one of them. How can this be explained?
This denial of request to more closely examine evidence and provide MORE info is the final proof, at the most crucial juncture, that the Italian courts were not interested in any truth or more information because more truth would have interfered with Nencini having the honor of burning the American witch.
Nencini was proud of the fact that he was running a disgusting witch hunt because it would earn him the respect of the Italian Justice System.
"Inquisition" is a word that has a long and venerated tradition in Italy.

 

[Bill Williams]

Vixon accused Amanda of saying the complete opposite of what Amanda actually said.
Does that surprise anyone?

It's dietrology. The obvious, plain text meaning of something is obviously false. It always has to be something more sinister.

 

[Wattson]

That is the routine cops go through. Most murders are committed by someone close, or someone known.

The fact police started with a premise some man followed her home, contradicts the claim "police were only interested in framing the kids".

What is interesting, is to note how a story breaks, how it develops and then follow the full trial or the court transcripts later.

Except you don't follow the trial docs and transcripts. You base your cockamamy theories on debunked news articles.

 

[Strozzi]

I can assure you, the German newspapers pre-1944 are very different from what is written in German history books today. These newspapers are so sensitive, you have to place a special order.

To find out the Japanese viewpoint, I read Kazuo Ishiguro, who came to England aged five, from Nagasaki and thus has a special interest and is in a unique position to analyse the Japanese viewpoint and the downfall, simply because he is a gifted writer and mixes with all these older generation people.

So, yes, history gets to be written by the victors, otherwise we would be Greater Germania now and the Allies would be figures of scorn in the history books, rather than heroes.

I agree it is unethical for subjdice issues to be openly promulgated in the press.

However, Italy's system is still largely inquisitorial, as opposed to adversarial, which entails gathering as much info as possible.

The inquisitorial system involves withholding (denying access to) exculpatory information, even to the point of concealing it's very existence, so as to skew the trial to reach a favored verdict. Lots of countries use that system in one form or another. When it involves relationships between a judge and a prosecutor we recognize it as state organs cooperating together to achieve a common objective. When it involves a judge and a private attorney we call it corruption (collusion, usually with a financial or political reward).

I've seen the inquisitorial system in one form or another in many countries in Africa and Asia. I never lived in Italy, so I have not seen it personally there. Amanda and Raffaele experienced it there when judges repeatedly denied them access to information that might have helped them defend themselves, some of which would have exposed the prosecution's case as false or would have revealed police's, scientific police's, and prosecutors' incompetence or dishonesty.

You know you are on the right track when you hear Mignini blame the loss of the case on the 20-year-old girl (who hardly spoke Italian) being a "clever liar and actress" and "external forces" from abroad.

 

[acbytesla]

Mez' father ought to know.

Really? You think so? My bet is Meredith's father was the last to know. I bet Meredith's father didn't know about Giacomo. For all the talk about Meredith hating Amanda, both of the Meredith's other roommates thought they got along fine.

For me the text messages say it all. Meredith is signing off with love and kisses.Who in their right mind does that to someone they supposedly despise?

I refuse to believe Meredith was some 2 faced bitch. Is that what you are saying? That Meredith was some big phoney?

So tell me Vixen, what was the motive? Is it Amanda hating Meredith or a sex game? Or was it money? And what was Raffaele's motive? Rudys? Why would he help?

 

[Kestrel]

A week before the murder, Meredith and Amanda went to the Perugia Chocolate Festival and a classical music concert together. Hardly what one might expect if they hated each other.