The Historical Jesus III

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Depends what you consider 'evidence'. Are the Josephus passages evidence ? Even if they are not genuine ? Is Christianity itself not evidence ? Even if it turns out to be based on a total myth ? After all, the motions of the stars is evidence for geocentrism. It's just that the preponderence of evidence points to heliocentrism.

The bibble is the major part of the evidence, but I disagree that it is the whole of it, under any definition of 'evidence' that I know of. Do I find said evidence convincing ? To a degree; probably not to Craig's degree, but more than Maximara's. However, what I won't do is either deny categorically that the evidence is there, nor will I categorically claim that it's solid.


By your very same illogic Aladdin, Robin Hood, Zoroaster, Baal, Moloch, Romulus, Ganesh, Zeus, Odin, Quatzequatel and Amun were all real too... perhaps... cannot say for sure... it all depends on what evidence you have that evidence is in fact the evidence it evidently is or is not depending on what 'is' is.

:dl:
 
By your very same illogic Aladdin, Robin Hood, Zoroaster, Baal, Moloch, Romulus, Ganesh, Zeus, Odin, Quatzequatel and Amun were all real too...

Nope. Perhaps if you were more focused on following the discussion than being flippant and dismissive, you'd get my point.


Or, here's another one for you: since HJ proponents are often accused of being closet Christians, I'll ask you to consider that your support for the MJ side of the debate is designed to 'fit' with your atheism. I've been there, so I know it's a real thing.
 
Nope. Perhaps if you were more focused on following the discussion than being flippant and dismissive, you'd get my point.


Or, here's another one for you: since HJ proponents are often accused of being closet Christians, I'll ask you to consider that your support for the MJ side of the debate is designed to 'fit' with your atheism. I've been there, so I know it's a real thing.


Is your support for the rejection of UFO sightings due to your atheism?

Is your support for the rejection of fairies and unicorns due to your atheism?

Is your support for the rejection of astrology due to your atheism?

Or was it due to applying logic and reason and rationality and reality? (I hope of course that you do reject all the above... otherwise then just forget it!)

So why are you now stopping short of supporting the rejection of another fairy tale character?

Could it be special pleading due to Cognitive Dissonance as described below?


It is like trying to rationalize Superman... he wasn't really a super alien he was just a good journalist who jumped over a fence once to save Lois Lane from a mugger and the story just got exaggerated a little when Jimmy Olsen wrote an article about it many many years later in the Daily Planet.

It is nothing but Cognitive Dissonance Alleviation Casuistry.

What they are doing is trying to somehow still maintain some FACE SAVING from having to admit that their culture and society and history has been based upon nothing more than a FAIRY TALE.

So they rationalize that ok, we can throw away the fairy tale aspect, but then there is still REAL stuff left in there and we have not been UTTERLY AND TOTALLY DUPED for all those centuries by a MYTHICAL FABLE.

In fact not any other fiction based on so tenuous an evidence for historicity, as the gospels, would be so hotly and emotionally debated for the establishment of the real historicity of its magic-wielding demigod supernatural hero and his entourage of hobos.

No scholar gets really hot under the collar arguing vehemently that Arthur was a real flesh and blood person albeit not really at all like he is depicted in the fables.

No scholars of Robin Hood (if there are even any) are constantly in contention over the issue of his historicity albeit he never ever even laid eyes on a Friar Tuck or a big Little John not to mention his mortifying green tights and feathered pointy hats.

No scholars or laity give a damn whether Hercules was based on a real flesh and blood person albeit he was not a demigod nor even could kill a dog let alone a lion.

However, in the case of Jesus, the so called scholars (in addition to the laity of course) are not even aware of their extreme special pleading in an attempt to assuage the throbbing pangs of a chronic cognitive dissonance on so many levels and variations touching their inner psyches.

They are desperate to prove that it is not all a big hoax like all the other woo they are increasingly beginning to realize is claptrap.

Much like children who are driven to tears and dismay after discovering the level of adult complicity of their society and parents in deceiving them for so long and in so many ways with the Santa fable.

So they carry on ferociously debating against the fictiveness of the Jesus fables postulating tenuous modicums of possible likelihood of perhaps maybe something approaching a near similarity to some kind of similitude of a real person or an amalgam persona who they begrudgingly and with extreme consternation concede might maybe possibly not have had anything magical about him, but could have been a xenophobic zealously benighted fanatically religious Rabbi or terrorist or freedom fighter or old-new-age hippie or cult leader according to one's own wishful thinking for what one needs this Jesus to be.
 
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....
Or, here's another one for you: since HJ proponents are often accused of being closet Christians, I'll ask you to consider that your support for the MJ side of the debate is designed to 'fit' with your atheism. I've been there, so I know it's a real thing.


Have a look here to see why your appeal to motive illogical fallacy does not pass muster.

...
It would be infinitely better for Christians if Jesus were in fact a myth because then he would be just as much of a god as any of the other gods.... but yet arguably a god.

If he were, as they foolishly want to prove, a human being then they would also be proving — if one takes the NT (as they have to do) as any kind of reference to his characteristics — that

C.S. Lewis in Mere Christianity
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: “I’m ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don’t accept His claim to be God.”

That is the one thing we must not say. A man who said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic — on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg — or else he would be the Devil of Hell[/HILITE].

You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse.
You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.

But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.​
 
Is your support for the rejection of UFO sightings due to your atheism?

Is your support for the rejection of fairies and unicorns due to your atheism?

Is your support for the rejection of astrology due to your atheism?

None of those are related to religion, are they ? I think you are deliberately missing the point, here.

Or was it due to applying logic and reason and rationality and reality?

In the case of the historical Jesus, it was informed by a personal need for Jesus to be not real, hence my question.

So why are you now stopping short of supporting the rejection of another fairy tale character?

Because I'm not satistifed that he was a fairy tale and nothing more. In case I wasn't clear before: I'm not accepting Jesus as a real historical person. Nor am I rejecting this possibility. I'm simply saying that there is, actually, some evidence to work with, some of which is outside of the bibble.
 
I'm sorry, but that's a ridiculous position. All the John Frum example does is show what is possible. It's not evidence for anything. But I've tried to explain this before.

Look up the concept of analogy as it applies to historical anthropology sometime.

"Belief in Christ is no more or less rational than belief in John Frum." -
Worsley, Peter (1957) The Trumpet Shall Sound: A Study of "Cargo" Cults in Melanesia London: Macgibbon & Kee pp. 153–9.


"Unlike the cult of Jesus, the origins of which are not reliably attested, we can see the whole course of events laid out before our eyes (and even here, as we shall see, some details are now lost). It is fascinating to guess that the cult of Christianity almost certainly began in very much the same way, and spread initially at the same high speed. [...] John Frum, if he existed at all, did so within living memory. Yet, even for so recent a possibility, it is not certain whether he lived at all." - Dawkins Richard (2006) The God Delusion pgs 202-203

"Further supporting the previous element is the fact that what are now called 'Cargo Cults' are the modern movement most culturally and socially similar to earliest Christianity, so much so that Christianity is best understood in light of them." - Carrier, Richard (2014) Element 29 On the Historicity of Jesus Sheffield Phoenix Press ISBN 978-1-909697-49-2 pg 159

And Carrier cites Worsley regarding this like crazy in his book.

Ben C Smith has compiled a list of good reasons to see why Paul regarding Jesus as a near contemporary makes best sense of the data.

And Guiart, Jean (1952) "John Frum Movement in Tanna" Oceania Vol 22 No 3 pg 165-177 shows what that is NOT the case. There is NOTHING in Paul that shows the Jesus he is seeing is near contemporary. As I said Paul carefully avoids such statement prefering to say rulers of this age and other vague things.

If Jesus was a near contemporary then why not say 'in the time of Pontius Pilate' or 'in the time of Tiberius' instead of vague things like 'this age'? The author of 1 Timothy who is NOT Paul had no problem but that work is generally dated 100-150 CE despite the epistle claiming in its own text to be from Paul.

In term of Historical Anthropology there is nothing in the seven epistle that clearly shows Jesus to be a near contemporary. In fact if such evidence did exist Mead would have had to address is in his 1903 Did Jesus Live 100 B.C.? but the only things he takes on are 1 Timothy, Acts, and the four Gospels.


And Mead presents the radical Dutch School idea with this comment "I do this the more readily because it conflicts with my own previously expressed view that the ten Letters of the Marcionite collection were largely authentic."

A little later on Mead says this: "But to return to our reference to Pilate in 1 Timothy. We see that there is no reason why we should assign an early date to this Letter, and every reason why we should hesitate to do so. Marcion (about 140 A.D.) says nothing about it; it was not in his Pauline canon. That is of course negative evidence, but of positive we have none."

So Mead is pitching out the idea that 1 Timothy as being from Paul and since Mead is not really messing around with the Seven there is nothing in them that clearly puts Jesus as a near contemporary of Paul otherwise Mead would have addressed it. QED.
 
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None of those are related to religion, are they ? I think you are deliberately missing the point, here.


Special pleading!

I think you are inadvertently missing the point here.

In the case of the historical Jesus, it was informed by a personal need for Jesus to be not real, hence my question.


So you ASSUME that I am just as illogically motivated by wishful thinking as you were.... and although you now have seen the light and the true path, you think I am still blinded and in need of saving?

Because I'm not satistifed that he was a fairy tale and nothing more.


So for you that is fine... but when someone else is satisfied you don't believe them and attribute to them your own previous illogical fallacy of wishful thinking bias.

Why are you allowed to be not satisfied but others are not allowed to be satisfied and you have to illogically question their motives?


In case I wasn't clear before: I'm not accepting Jesus as a real historical person. Nor am I rejecting this possibility. I'm simply saying that there is, actually, some evidence to work with, some of which is outside of the bibble.


What? Pray tell!

But first...please save yourself some embarrassment and read the thread or the books or watch the videos before you start REHASHING already debunked rubbish.

"Higher criticism"?? Hahaha ... quite the joke you make... you mean more like imbecilic toeing the line rather than any criticism let alone the most highly laughable of the most illogical claptrap.

I think you'll find the answers to your disingenuous questions in these books as a starter
But I know you will never read them because just like the rest of your illogic you've PREJUDGED them and their author as not up to par with your biased authority which you prefer to blindly and illogically follow.

I also know that you would never gather enough rational impartiality or logical objectivity to bother to watch these videos either, in which all your disingenuous queries are answered in full.

 
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@Leumas

Of the various passages that you have cited, which of them states that Jesus is God? "Lord" doesn't mean God. "Son of God" doesn't mean God. It is a Messianic title, applied to both David and Solomon in the Tanakh.
 
I'm not accepting Jesus as a real historical person. Nor am I rejecting this possibility. I'm simply saying that there is, actually, some evidence to work with, some of which is outside of the bibble.

What you say is established fiction. There is NO actual evidence to support an HJ.

You cannot and is incapable of presenting the ACTUAL evidence "to work with".

There is NO contemporary writing which identifies a character called Jesus of Nazareth in the time of Pilate OUTSIDE the Bible.

There are hundreds upon hundreds of 2nd century or later manuscripts which depict Jesus as a myth/fiction character.

I accept that Jesus was a figure of fiction/myth just as I accept Satan and the Angel Gabriel were myth/fiction characters in the NT UNTIL historical data can be found.

No historical data for Jesus of Nazareth has been found and none will be since Jesus of Nazareth NEVER had any real existence.

The NT is a compilation of the Ghost stories that were believed in antiquity by people who called themselves Christians.

Over 1600 years ago it was exposed that the Jesus stories were MONSTROUS fables and the Pauline Corpus was a pack of lies.

The Skeptics of antiquity have been vindicated since after 1600 years Scholars NOW admit the NT is really a compilation of fiction, mythology, forgeries or false attribution.
 
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I accept that Jesus was a figure of fiction/myth just as I accept Satan and the Angel Gabriel were myth/fiction characters in the NT UNTIL historical data can be found.
So Satan was baptised by John the Baptist, and the Angel Gabriel is a carpenter?
 
dejudge said:
What you say is established fiction. There is NO actual evidence to support an HJ.

That is a lie. What fiction you write!

That is exactly what I expected you to say. You have NO actual evidence for an HJ.

You cannot and is incapable of presenting the ACTUAL evidence "to work with" for an historical Jesus.

Christians of antiquity have ALREADY explained in GREAT DETAIL that their Jesus was born of a Ghost, and the LORD GOD from heaven.

"Apology" attributed to Aristides
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High. And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man. This is taught in the gospel

Comtra Faustum
1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly. Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not. It does not follow that because I believe the gospel, as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born.

Jesus was a character WITHOUT birth according to Christians.


An historical Jesus [a mere man with a human father] is the product of men with LYING tongues according to Irenaeus.


Against Heresies
1. Inasmuch as certain men have set the truth aside, and bring in lying words and vain genealogies, which, as the apostle says, minister questions rather than godly edifying which is in faith, and by means of their craftily-constructed plausibilities draw away the minds of the inexperienced and take them captive, [I have felt constrained, my dear friend, to compose the following treatise in order to expose and counteract their machinations.]

These men falsify the oracles of God, and prove themselves evil interpreters of the good word of revelation.

An historical Jesus[a mere man with a human father] is a product of plausible LIES and Fiction based on "Against Heresies".


"Against Heresies" and "Refutation Against All Heresies" are evidence that Christians of antiquity NEVER EVER had any historical data for Jesus of Nazareth for at least 1800 years.

The Roman Goverment conceded that Jesus was really born of a Ghost and was VERY GOD of very God.

Jesus is the HOLIEST MYTH [pure myth and holy fiction].
 
You are proving that you have NO actual evidence for an HJ.

I asked you to stop lying, and you went on and lied again.

Answer me this: how can one prove that they have no evidence by mentioning evidence ?

Just because you find the evidence unconvincing, which is quite a legitimate position to take, it does not justify redefining it as non-evidence.
 
You cannot and is incapable

*are.


Yet another theistic diversionary sophistry.

...It's just that the preponderence of evidence points to heliocentrism.

... Frankly, and uncharacterically for you, your contributions to this thread ....


Matthew 7:5
  • 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
 
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dejudge said:
You are proving that you have NO actual evidence for an HJ.

I asked you to stop lying, and you went on and lied again.

Again, you continue to prove you have NO actual evidence for an historical Jesus.


You will NEVER EVER present any actual evidence for an historical Jesus IN or OUT the Bible.

Jesus was a Ghost/God/man from conception to ascension.



Belz... said:
Answer me this: how can one prove that they have no evidence by mentioning evidence ?

What ACTUAL evidence have you mentioned?

Manuscripts and Codices of antiquity ACTUALLY state Jesus was the son of the HOLY Ghost and that Jesus is God Creator who walked on water BEFORE he transfigured, resurrected and ascended in a cloud.


Belz... said:
Just because you find the evidence unconvincing, which is quite a legitimate position to take, it does not justify redefining it as non-evidence.

Just because you cannot present any ACTUAL evidence for an historical Jesus in or out the Bible you accuse people of Lying.

You can NEVER EVER present any historical evidence from antiquity for an historical Jesus of Nazareth because such a character is MODERN Fiction.


Jesus was the son of a Ghost in and out the myth fables called the New Testament.

Matthew 1:18
Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: When as his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before they came together, she was found with child of the Holy Ghost.
 
@Leumas

Of the various passages that you have cited, which of them states that Jesus is God? "Lord" doesn't mean God. "Son of God" doesn't mean God. It is a Messianic title, applied to both David and Solomon in the Tanakh.


Seriously!!!

Whom do you think this is going to fool?

You are now trying to dissimulate that you do not know that Paul took Jesus for a god?

How many "observant Jewish preachers" you know of have appeared to Paul in a light brighter than the sun and blinded him for three days and then cured him again?

How many "observant Jewish preachers" gave revelations to Paul and yet he thought they were not men?

How many "observant Jewish preachers" have you seen who are LORDS of the dead and living?

How many "observant Jewish preachers" do you know of are sitting on judgment seats in the afterlife judging people?

How many "observant Jewish preachers" have appeared to Paul in visions to convince him of things and he got convinced?

Have you ever heard anyone saying "I trust in John Smith that he will soon do this or that" when John Smith as a normal human has been dead for decades?

:dl:

He hallucinated no such thing. This is what Paul says about the "vision". And here is what he means by God's son. God resurrected him.


Cherry Picking of the highest caliber

Galatians 1:11-12
  • 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man.
  • 1:12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:3-4
  • 1:3 Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ,
  • 1:4 Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Philippians 2:19
  • 2:19 But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state.


Romans 14:8-14
  • 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
  • 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
  • 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
  • 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
  • 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
  • 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
  • 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.

Acts 22:6-14
  • 22:6 And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey, and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon, suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
  • 22:7 And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
  • 22:8 And I answered, Who art thou, Lord? And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
  • 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
  • 22:10 And I said, What shall I do, LORD? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do.
  • 22:11 And when I could not see for the glory of that light, being led by the hand of them that were with me, I came into Damascus.
  • 22:12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
  • 22:13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
  • 22:14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Acts 26:13-24
  • 26:13 At midday, O king, I saw in the way a light from heaven, above the brightness of the sun, shining round about me and them which journeyed with me.
  • 26:14 And when we were all fallen to the earth, I heard a voice speaking unto me, and saying in the Hebrew tongue, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me? it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
  • 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest.
  • 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee;
  • 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee,
  • 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
  • ...
  • 26:24 And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad.
 
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Depends what you consider 'evidence'. Are the Josephus passages evidence ? Even if they are not genuine ? Is Christianity itself not evidence ? Even if it turns out to be based on a total myth ? ...

The bibble is the major part of the evidence, but I disagree that it is the whole of it, under any definition of 'evidence' that I know of ...
The Josephus passages as they stand are pretty flimsy evidence given the way Josephus wrote about others, and the fact they're both highly likely to be interpolations, they show how flimsy the whole thing is.

If Christianity "turns out to be based on a total myth" then doesn't that mean the central character - Jesus - is also myth?
 
Seriously!!!
Yes indeed. Please answer my question.
@Leumas

Of the various passages that you have cited, which of them states that Jesus is God? "Lord" doesn't mean God. "Son of God" doesn't mean God. It is a Messianic title, applied to both David and Solomon in the Tanakh.
Have you ever heard anyone saying "I trust in John Smith that he will soon do this or that" when John Smith as a normal human has been dead for decades?

:dl:
Yes. I have heard of that. It is a common religious belief that the living can contact the spirits of dead people and receive information, advice or other benefits from them. The dead people who are supposed to interact with the living are not believed to be Gods.

So please answer my question. Where does Paul state that Jesus is God?
 
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