Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[RoboTimbo]

Granted, we both knew that he would, if he answered the questions honestly, but that had nothing to do with burden of proof.

And BTW, I notice that no one else has posted answers to those questions, either.
I sincerely hope that the skeptics here would never evade questions, because they thought the answers might contradict their beliefs.

Attempting to switch the burden of proof.

 

[RoboTimbo]

And where do you see that? In the first segment or the second?

You've not made a case for a suppressed rifle nor for additional shots.

You forgot to respond to that. The ball is still in your court.

 

[Robert Harris]

The perspective created by the Panoramic view is not real. Surely you understand why?

Think of an artist drawing all of Dealey Plaza, including the path of the limo. If you superimposed the limo over the drawing, as it traveled down Elm St, you would see the same basic result that you see in the Panoramic view.

Anthony Davison did a superb job on this, BTW. In a number of places, it's quite easy to see that he has placed the limo and even the sprocket hole images with absolute precision. This is one of his original presentations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqk3sdfXFkc

And BTW, did you examine the Kellerman presentation yet. Do you understand that some of his reactions then could not have been caused by a deceleration?

 

[RoboTimbo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqk3sdfXFkc

Don't forget to forward your YouTube links to the FBI: https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us

Report back here with your results.

 

[Robert Harris]

Robert, you have not demonstrated that they are startle reactions. You have asserted this. Please demonstrate that they are.

All of the reactions are consistent with known startle reactions and I have demonstrated that Kellerman exhibited clear startle reactions, including the fact that he hunched his shoulders upward, which Landis and Hunt concluded, is a classic startle reaction.

I also demonstrated that most of his reactions were a perfect match with a woman who was startled by a bomb going off in Atlanta. She simultaneously dropped her head, raised her hand to her ear and briefly raised her shoulders exactly like he did.

I suppose we could argue all day about what actually constitutes "proof", but I think that at the very least, this empirical evidence suggests a very high probability that he was startled by a loud noise.

And Kellerman, as well as most others that day, were quite clear about what he was hearing then, and it certainly wasn't a siren.

 

[Robert Harris]

Don't forget to forward your YouTube links to the FBI: https://www.fbi.gov/contact-us

Report back here with your results.

Hi Robo!

I know that you aren't trolling, but I do think there are people here who are a bit more interested in the kind of evidence that I prefer to discuss, so I will only be responding to them for awhile.

Have a good evening.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Hi Robo!

I know that you aren't trolling, but I do think there are people here who are a bit more interested in the kind of evidence that I prefer to discuss, so I will only be responding to them for awhile.

Have a good evening.

Hi Robert!

Wow, I'm impressed! You're going to start responding to the rebuttals you've been getting. That's awesome!

You have a good evening too. It's just a shame that you won't turn over all of this objective, verifiable evidence to the FBI.

 

[ComfySlippers]

Think of an artist drawing all of Dealey Plaza, including the path of the limo. If you superimposed the limo over the drawing, as it traveled down Elm St, you would see the same basic result that you see in the Panoramic view.

Anthony Davison did a superb job on this, BTW. In a number of places, it's quite easy to see that he has placed the limo and even the sprocket hole images with absolute precision. This is one of his original presentations.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sqk3sdfXFkc

And BTW, did you examine the Kellerman presentation yet. Do you understand that some of his reactions then could not have been caused by a deceleration?

I agree that it's very well done. But not for the same reasons as yourself.
Your artist analogy, however, doesn't quite work and wasn't necessary.
(I include a snap I've just taken to verify I'm not "JackWhite-ing").

The video in question does give a different "perspective" in that it shows the layout of the area outside of the live action.
However the sense of perspective is obviously impossible to be accurate therefore creates a false impression.

(I include a snap I've just taken to verify I'm not "JackWhite-ing").



ETA: I didn't notice that my snap looks like my camera is pointing from a sniper's nest.
The intention was merely to show that I don't require flawed analogies to help me understand things.

 

[HSienzant]

Greer spun around from rear-to-front in four frames or 2/9ths of one second, as he simultaneously made the greatest mistake of his career, slowing the limo. He testified that "The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind the other".

He also described the "concussion" of the second shot,

I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not, I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was something different to it.


I think the "concussion" was the shock wave of a passing bullet, though I would be open to other explanations.

On the other hand, his putting the two shots together ("just simultaneously, one behind the other") and saying there was something different about one of them agrees entirely with Clint Hill, who said that of the last shot, it seemed to have an echo -- he described it as it sounded like a bullet when it hit something hard (and what was hit with the last shot -- why, the President's skull).

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo.

"Just simultaneously" doesn't mean a second and a half apart. Or words have no meaning.

Hank

 

[Robert Harris]

3 dimensional backgrounds can never be in perfect perspective on a 2D image. But that is not important to the question of when the slowdown began. The kind of slowdown required to throw the passengers around that much, would have had to have been quite pronounced and easy to see, even in an original copy of the film.

And what we see in the panoramic view, matches perfectly with Dr. Alvarez's conclusions.

Perhaps even more conclusive is that we see reactions by Kellerman that could not possibly have been caused by inertia.

Alvarez's suggestion that Greer slowed the limo in reaction to a loud noise at 285, is extremely persuasive. In addition to his own analysis about the slowdown, it explains why Greer would have made the terrible decision to slow the limo in the middle of a shooting.

Greer was obviously panicked then, which is also why he spun around so rapidly following 285, almost exactly like he did following 313.

And his testimony that he felt the "concussion" of the second shot, adds more corroboration that he was exposed to a very loud, high powered rifle shot.

And as I have said before, he said he was "turned around" when the second shot was fired, which proves that he wasn't thinking of a shot at 160 or 223, when he was looking forward.

 

[HSienzant]

Are you referring to Greer?

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.

Kellerman heard differently.

Mr. KELLERMAN. ...I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that direction.
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon?
Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and here we are with the hands--
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head.
Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section.
. . .
Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I am hit."
Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?
Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the phrases.

The Governor said he cried out:
Governor CONNALLY. I immediately, when I was hit, I said, "Oh, no, no, no." And then I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." Nellie, when she pulled me over into her lap----

Nellie remembered that as well.
Mrs. CONNALLY. Then very soon there was the second shot that hit John. As the first shot was hit, and I turned to look at the same time, I recall John saying, "Oh, no, no, no." Then there was a second shot, and it hit John, and as he recoiled to the right, just crumpled like a wounded animal to the right, he said, "My God, they are going to kill us all."

Even Mrs Kennedy said the Governor cried out:
Mrs. KENNEDY. You know, there is always noise in a motorcade and there are always motorcycles, besides us, a lot of them backfiring. So I was looking to the left. I guess there was a noise, but it didn't seem like any different noise really because there is so much noise, motorcycles and things. But then suddenly Governor Connally was yelling, "Oh, no, no, no."

A failure by Greer to remember doesn't mean it didn't happen. Especially when the other witnesses testified it did.

Hank

PS: It's best not to ignore the bulk of the witnesses and cherry-pick the one(s) - in this instance, one - who best supports your case.

 

[turingtest]

Also, please look at the Kellerman segment I just linked.

Some of his reactions, such as raising his hand to his ear, shrugging his shoulders, and twisting his head to the right, were clearly unrelated to a rapid slowdown.
...

I'm sure no one agrees with me at this point, but PLEASE consider the quantity and quality of the empirical evidence I am showing you.

Quote:
Some of his reactions, such as raising his hand to his ear, shrugging his shoulders, and twisting his head to the right, were clearly unrelated to a rapid slowdown.

I sure he was reacting to the commotion in the back; you know, where two of his charges had just been shot.

Quote:
I sure he was reacting to the commotion in the back; you know, where two of his charges had just been shot.

Are you referring to Greer?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time of the first shot until the time of the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.

And Greer's reaction, which began simultaneously with the others, was to turn from the rear to the front.

He testified that he heard near simultaneous shots then and that he felt the "concussion" of the second shot, which is exactly what he would have felt from the shock wave of a passing supersonic bullet.

Why would BazBear have been "referring to Greer" when he was responding to your assertions about Kellerman's actions? This is either dishonesty on your part, or you just can't keep up with the conversation.

So, what did Kellerman say about his actions? Let's see, shall we?

As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away from buildings, and were there was a sign on the side of the road which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around and he has got his hands up here like this.

So, his initial head turn to the right was to the "pop" of the first shot; he then turned because he heard a commotion- he thought the President saying he was hit. Whether he actually heard this or not doesn't matter- it's plain he was saying he turned (the second turn) because he heard a voice, not shots. Then what does he do? [After some discussion of how exactly JFK was holding his arms in reaction to the first hit]:

Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.

Isn't it just as fair an interpretation to say that what you see as Kellerman's "startle reaction" to a shot at 285 is his own self-described reaction to seeing the President obviously hit and turning back "in the same motion" to speak to Greer and grab the mike?

Incidentally, the point you were apparently trying to make with Greer's words- that, since according to him, no one spoke, so there was no "commotion" to respond to- is impeached by your star witness, Nellie Connally, who said her husband reacted to the first shot by shouting "no, no, no!" And Connally said that, after he realized he had been hit, he shouted "no, no, no," and "they are going to kill us all." (HSCA Testimony of Mr and Mrs John B. Connally)

(Yes, I know I said I was out- I can't help it, this kind of transparent behavior in pursuit of "truth" needs to be called out.)

*And, dammit, ninja'd by Hank.

 

[Robert Harris]

On the other hand, his putting the two shots together ("just simultaneously, one behind the other") and saying there was something different about one of them agrees entirely with Clint Hill, who said that of the last shot, it seemed to have an echo -- he described it as it sounded like a bullet when it hit something hard (and what was hit with the last shot -- why, the President's skull).

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound, which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object--it seemed to have some type of an echo.

"Just simultaneously" doesn't mean a second and a half apart. Or words have no meaning.

Hank

Greer testified that prior to the second and third shots, he only, .."heard a noise that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen.

Obvoiusly, that wasn't very startling.

So why, did he spin around, starting at about 292 so rapidly that alterationists thought his turns were humanly impossible, or more specifically, from rear to front in 2/9ths of one second?

At the same time, he lifted his foot from the gas and made the terrible blunder of slowing the limo in the middle of the shooting.

I think he was startled then. He said he felt that the "concussion" of the second shot, which was obviously, the shock wave of a bullet. That explains perfectly, why in his panick, he would have done those things.

That also matches perfectly with Alvarez's conclusion that he was reacting to a loud and startling noise at frame 285 then.

Now let's look at Hill's statements and see if he thought he was hearing two gunshots. This is from his original report,

"I heard a second firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard."

Shooting a revolver into something hard, is light years from hearing two separate shots. In his WC testimony, he correctly stated,

"I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object"

If your theory is correct, Hank, then Hill is the ONLYperson in DP that day, who realized that he was not hearing two, separate gunshots then.

 

[HSienzant]

Yes, gunshots require gunmen, and it doesn't mean much that they were "unevidenced", since the Daltex was never searched, and there is evidence that two rifles were found in the depository.

When you say it was never searched, are you implying the rifle may be there still? If not, please detail ALL the evidence that indicates a rifle was ever in the DalTex building and used during the assassination. Does it amount to "Because I said so?"

In addition to the usual arguments about the identification of the rifle, ex ATF agent, Frank Ellsworth had some interesting things to say, about his experience, assisting in the search of the Depository. This is from "Oswald Talked", by Ray and Mary La Fontaine.

Former ATF agent Frank Ellsworth, who
participated in a second search of the Book Depository
conducted after 1:30p.m. on November 22, 1963, confirms that
the Mannlicher-Carcano was found by a DPD detective on the
fourth or fifth floor of the building, "not on the same floor
as the cartridges". He adds: "I
remember we talked about it, and figured that he (Oswald) must
have run out from the stairwell, to the lower floor and
dropped it as he was running downstairs."

How many *decades* after the fact did this interview take place? Is that at all pertinent, Robert? Why didn't you post the date of the interview (the year will do nicely) if it's pertinent?

I don't consider this absolute proof, but the source was a federal agent, and his recollections are consistent with the possibility that the first rifle found, was actually a Mauser.

Are federal agents tested and have verifiably better recall than the average member of the populace?
The films and photos of the rifle recovered in the Depository and removed from the Depository were examined by the HSCA photographic panel and determined to show a Mannlicher-Carcano. And it was the conclusion of the panel that the rifle shown wasn't just any Mannlicher-Carcano, but Lee Harvey's Oswald's Mannlicher-Carcano, the one bearing the serial number C2766.

You won't be able to show a Mauser, and you won't be able to establish a second rifle in the building. This is just standard grade conspiracy theorist nonsense. I thought you were claiming to be above all that, and that you'd agree with most LN's contentions. Arguing for two rifles doesn't sound like anything any LN claimed:

Isn't it better than what you have heard from traditional, conspiracy buffs?
In fact, in a debate with one of them, I would be on your side on almost everything except the question of conspiracy.

It is also consistent with other witnesses who claimed to have seen another sniper on the same floor Oswald was on.

Please quote these witnesses (PLURAL) in context.

I fully agree with Stroscio on that, and in fact, Tague testified that although he wasn't entirely certian, his recollection was that it was the second shot that caused his minor wound,

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you hear any more shots after you felt yourself get hit in the face?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. You think you did?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe I did.
Mr. LIEBELER. How many?
Mr. TAGUE. I believe that it was the second shot, so I heard the third shot afterwards.

Asked and answered by me pages ago. His recollection is entirely consistent with the final shot striking him. It had to do with physics and the speed of sound versus the speed of a bullet, remember? Your rebuttal to my point is still pending.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Now let's look at Hill's statements and see if he thought he was hearing two gunshots. This is from his original report,

"I heard a second firecracker type noise but it had a different sound-- like the sound of shooting a revolver into something hard."

Shooting a revolver into something hard, is light years from hearing two separate shots. In his WC testimony, he correctly stated,

"I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object"

If your theory is correct, Hank, then Hill is the ONLYperson in DP that day, who realized that he was not hearing two, separate gunshots then.

Untrue. I previously pointed out the testimony of Sam Holland., who claimed to have heard a "report" and a shot as the final two sounds he heard. You dismissed it.

 

[HSienzant]

Of course it does. I have argued with alterationists who claimed that there is no visible slowdown in the Zapruder film as there is in the Tague film. Of course there is, but that's because in the Tague film, we are looking at a smaller limo in a much larger background.

Tague film? Tague took no film. You're mis-remembering something. Something you know doubt have claimed in writing correctly dozens of times. And recalled countless more.

Now apply that to federal agent Frank Ellsworth, and his memory, from how-many-decades after the fact, that he thought the rifle was recovered from a different floor. Even though all the contemporaneous reports put the rifle found on the sixth floor. Why would you even raise this issue, if you weren't desperate?

Hank

 

[BazBear]

That is not true.

I am discussing verifiable facts and empirical evidence, which proves that some of Kellerman's reactions were classic, textbook startle reactions.

Once again - your or anyone else's inferences, based on watching the Zapruder film, are neither facts or empirical evidence. They are opinions. They certainly don't prove your contention of a shot fired ~Z-285.

 

[Robert Harris]

Why would BazBear have been "referring to Greer" when he was responding to your assertions about Kellerman's actions? This is either dishonesty on your part, or you just can't keep up with the conversation.

You seem to feel compelled to find sinister motives in everything I say.

I deal with numerous posts in a somewhat assembly line manner and it is tedious and time consuming to look up a post and the posts preceding it, which may not be visible on the current page.

That's why I ASKED whether he was referring to Greer. It must take incredible imagination to come up with the accusation that I am trying to pull a fast one.

So, what did Kellerman say about his actions?

I deleted the URL, not because I am trying to coverup Kellerman's testimony, but because it cuts into the number of URLs I am permitted to link. God, this is tiresome.

So, his initial head turn to the right was to the "pop" of the first shot;

That is correct.

he then turned because he heard a commotion-

I couldn't find that or anything like that in his testimony. Please cite him verbatim.

he thought the President saying he was hit. Whether he actually heard this or not doesn't matter- it's plain he was saying he turned (the second turn) because he heard a voice, not shots.

Yes, he turned to his left to look into the back seat, but all that was prior to his and the other reactions which began at 290-292.

Then what does he do? [After some discussion of how exactly JFK was holding his arms in reaction to the first hit]:

Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit," and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill, who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into. the back seat.

Kellerman was wrong. We can see in the film that he didn't go for the mike that early. In the past, people have claimed that he was talking on the mike when he raised his hand to his ear, but besides that being the wrong orifice, he wouldn't have had much to say, in 5/18ths of a second

He confirmed that in his original report; he stated,

"I turned around to find out what happened when two additional shots rang out, and the President slumped into Mrs. Kennedy's lap and Governor Connally fell_to Mrs. Connally's lap. I heard Mrs. Kennedy shout, "What are they doing to you?"
I yelled at William Greer (the driver) to "Step on it, we're hit!" and grabbed the mike from the car radio, called to SA Lawson in the police lead car..

By the time he testified, Senator Yarborough and others had criticized the Secret Service, accusing them of being "sluggish", so some of them tended to accelerate their description of events.

Lawson further corroborated the fact that Kellerman was only on the radio after the shooting had ended.

As the Lead Car was passing under this bridge I heard the first loud, sharp report and in more rapid succession two more sounds like gunfire. I could see persons to the left of the motorcade vehicles running away. I noticed Agent Hickey standing up in the follow-up car with the automatic weapon and first thought he had fired at someone. Both the President's car and our Lead Car rapidly accelerated almost simultaneously. I heard a report over the two-way radio that we should proceed to the nearest hospital.

Isn't it just as fair an interpretation to say that what you see as Kellerman's "startle reaction" to a shot at 285 is his own self-described reaction to seeing the President obviously hit and turning back "in the same motion" to speak to Greer and grab the mike?

Not to anyone who has wasted.. I mean invested 20 years researching this thing.

Incidentally, the point you were apparently trying to make with Greer's words- that, since according to him, no one spoke, so there was no "commotion" to respond to- is impeached by your star witness, Nellie Connally, who said her husband reacted to the first shot by shouting "no, no, no!" And Connally said that, after he realized he had been hit, he shouted "no, no, no," and "they are going to kill us all."

Not at all. She heard it and he didn't. If you think otherwise, you should have taken it up with Greer when he was still alive.

(Yes, I know I said I was out- I can't help it, this kind of transparent behavior in pursuit of "truth" needs to be called out.)

I can't think of anything better than "transparent behavior in pursuit of truth". That's exactly what I do, my friend.

 

[Robert Harris]

Tague film? Tague took no film.

Nothing gets by you does it?

This is what happens when I take on an entire forum. I'm amazed that I haven't claimed that Jackie was assassinated yet

You're mis-remembering something.

Well of course! I just forgot that Zapruder made that movie, rather than Tague.

Something you know doubt have claimed in writing correctly dozens of times. And recalled countless more.

This was not a case of me forgetting. When I type rapidly sometimes, after dozens of long posts, I sometimes do that. If I type Nellie instead of Jackie, it doesn't mean that I forgot who JFK was married to.

Now apply that to federal agent Frank Ellsworth, and his memory, from how-many-decades after the fact, that he thought the rifle was recovered from a different floor. Even though all the contemporaneous reports put the rifle found on the sixth floor. Why would you even raise this issue, if you weren't desperate?

By that standard, you can just blow off every witness in existence. This was by far, the biggest case this man was ever associated with, and people tend to have clear memories of what they did that day. I really don't see any reason to doubt him.

 

[HSienzant]

She heard it and he didn't. If you think otherwise, you should have taken it up with Greer when he was still alive.

Pretend some more she's the only witness we should consult. What about the Governor? What about Kellerman? What about the First Lady? What did they say?

Can we break the tie by comparing the testimony of all the witnesses in the car? If we try that, we see three witnesses said the same thing, and Greer is the outlier.

Pretend some more we need to ask Greer anything.

The point is you cherry-picked the one witness in the limo who said he didn't recall.

Hank