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Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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As asked before: do you really think that "they" will accept it after the retest? Who exactly are the people you seek to convince anyway? Do we have to get every one of the 7 billion people on the planet to agree, or can we stop before this point?

In effect, the argument seems to be, "We are scientists, even atheists who could not care less about the shroud. You have been told it is dated 1260. We are not interested in it further. Tough if you are someone who would like further tests."
 
No. I explained if you want to find out the average height of a population you need a reasonably large sample, minimum random 200. We know height is a normal distribution, so we can tell if our sampling is accurate by how well it correlates to the Gaussian curve.

In the case of the shroud the population is 1.
 
In effect, the argument seems to be, "We are scientists, even atheists who could not care less about the shroud. You have been told it is dated 1260. We are not interested in it further. Tough if you are someone who would like further tests."

No. This is a lie.

The argument is "The date is roughly 780 AD. Here is all the evidence. This is the best-controlled sample ever taken, with more duplicates than anyone obtains for any other sample of artifacts, soil, sediment, or anything else. No one has offered any real criticism of this date, nor any real justification for further testing. Given that the artifact is finite in nature, we'd rather not destroy it to satisfy people who will never be satisfied anyway. If you can come up with a good reason, sure, we'll re-sample; until then, there's no justification for it."
 
Ok, now I know you're taking the piss.

To clarify: you are saying that, if I want to be confident that a particular person is 170 cm in height, I must measure this person 200 times.

That's ridiculous. 2-3 measurements will do it.

Once you have the appropriate tool with correct calibration and a person who can use it according to the rules, one single measurement is enough.
 
In effect, the argument seems to be, "We are scientists, even atheists who could not care less about the shroud. You have been told it is dated 1260. We are not interested in it further. Tough if you are someone who would like further tests."
Nope. The argument is that as many test could willingly be performed, but the owners of the CIQ decline any and all offers because they know a priori that all such tests would add to the current truck of fail that they have already accumulated.
 
And >40% people in the US disbelieve theory of natural selection for which we have more evidence than there are human in the US.

So what ? Believer will continue to believe and dismiss evidence contrary to their belief.

Heck , I remember back in France some statistical study showing you do not get more "cure" or getting slightly better out of Lourde visitor than your average spa. And yet people continue to go there for a miracle.

Again , there is no worst blind than the one which do not want to see.

Darwin's Theory is just that, a "Theory"; albeit it a useful and eloquent one.
 
Since noone can agree on its age...

False. Everyone knowledgeable about C14 dating agrees on the age. The only folks who don't are uninformed. Why should we value the uninformed opinions of folks with an obvious vested interest in authenticity over the professional opinions and conclusions of knowledgeable experts?

Darwin's Theory is just that, a "Theory";
With those seven words you've destroyed any credibility you had left.
 
The highlighted is an attempt to discredit me by calling into question my objectivity. It is a personal attack. The fact that it grossly misrepresents my argument is a relatively unimportant side issue.

I said I didn't understand your resistance to retesting*, given it's a scientific principle. That refers to the Turin Shroud. Disagreeing with someone or not understanding a view is not an insult.

*If that is not the case, then I apologise for misunderstanding your position.
 
I said I didn't understand your resistance to retesting*, given it's a scientific principle. That refers to the Turin Shroud. Disagreeing with someone or not understanding a view is not an insult.

*If that is not the case, then I apologise for misunderstanding your position.

I am afraid Dinwar's position is not the only subject you do not understand. There are very obviously many others.
 
I said I didn't understand your resistance to retesting*, given it's a scientific principle. That refers to the Turin Shroud. Disagreeing with someone or not understanding a view is not an insult.

*If that is not the case, then I apologise for misunderstanding your position.

Nobody objects to retesting, only the current owners do. How you purloin this into... whatever nonsense it is you choose to believe is just plain weird.
 
Vixen said:
I said I didn't understand your resistance to retesting*, given it's a scientific principle.
You did so in a direct attempt to discredit me.

Secondly, it's NOT a scientific principle that all results BE replicated. Such a concept is nonsense. It's a principle that they be replicABLE. There is a difference.

Third, the shroud samples WERE replicated. Multiple times. Far beyond SOP for sampling.

Fourth, I have explained my reluctance multiple times; you have not addressed any of my reasons.

abaddon said:
Everyone agrees on it's age. WTF?
Near as I can tell, Vixen--who believes schler (Futurama reference, before anyone jumps down my throat) mastery of statistics trumps that of all the researchers who have been involved with the shroud C14 testing--is using the existence of error bars to demonstrate a lack of agreement, and therefore as justification for throwing out the data we have.
 
Darwin's Theory is just that, a "Theory"; albeit it a useful and eloquent one.
In science, a Theory is the highest altar of reverence. In science, a "Theory" does not equal some WAG.

That you are entirely innocent of this likely tells more than you would wish.

Gravity is "just a theory". Care to chuck yourself off a tall building? Didn't think so.
 
It's not really arbitrary; it's basic statistics if you want to go out and test your hypothesis and you want to persuade your peers your raw data is as pure as possible.

A core aspect of statistics is to allow people to calculate how accurate their sample reflects the actual population, and conversely, how many samples must one take to obtain a given accuracy. Almost all numbers obtained in real life are samples of the total population. How many females are there it the world? No one can count all 7 billion people, so census takers try to get representative samples from different parts of the world to count, and then use statistics to determine how accurately those samples predict the total population. Same idea if one was trying to figure out a number for the height of the average Londoner, and the typical range to be expected.

Same idea even in reverse: statistics often permit people to decide, given numerical fluctuations in almost all things, how much effort is "good enough" for one's purpose. There is usually no point spending extra effort and money to do more than "good enough." If I only want to know the percentage of males to females in the world +/- 0.1%, then I need to use a sample size of x; if I want to know +/- 0/01% then I need to use a larger sample size of y. If my goal doesn't care +/- 0.0001%, then there is no point in me sampling the still more people required to obtain this number. The only "idea" would be to count every one of the 7 billion, but why bother unless your question required it.

We wash our hands until they are clean enough for a given purpose, such as eating food vs. surgery, which require different levels of washing,. But there is no absolute ideal. If one continues to wash until one achieves as absolutely clean hands as possible, one would spend hours in the wash room and wash all the skin off.
 
No, only 200 randomly selected ISO standard labs.

Vixen, seriously: Normally C14 datings are performed by a single lab. We trust these datings, because C14 dating is a very objective science.

In this case, no less than three labs were used, because the result was potentially controversial, from a religious POV.

Why would you want even more testing? Because you don't like the result? - Sorry, but science does not work that way.

Hans
 
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