Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Grinder]

What difference does that make Grinder? We are not actually talking about Edda, but the mindset of the police being aware that Edda MIGHT be able to cause a problem .

According to Follain it was Mignini and not the police. Besides Follain is there any source for their fear. I think a judge wrote something. Do you have knowledge of the ILE's ability to hold Amanda or any material witness? Maybe Numbers will have that.

Say Bill is Follain where you get the Mignini called her an actress line?

 

[Strozzi]

Honestly Grinder? They were worried about Edda because she would have put a damper on their plans to break Amanda. Wold they have arrested either Amanda or Raffaele if they didn't manage to manipulate her? The Embassy would have made sure that Amanda would have had a lawyer. They wouldn't have been able trample her rights.

You've watched a few cop shows is my guess. The last thing that they wanted was to have Amanda lawyer up. A lawyer certainly wouldn't have allowed the interpreter to get involved. The lawyer wouldn't have allowed the police to convince her that she was so traumatized that she had forgotten .

I realize it is tough to grasp, but the US Embassy would not have made sure Amanda had a lawyer. The Embassy really acts neutrally when an American is in contact with law enforcement or the judicial process. The Embassy would have advised the Anerican to consult an attorney and would have furnished a list of lawyers who have provided their name and specialty. It is up to the American to utilize it. Unfortunately, a young American student on a budget might not utilize it.

Edda, however, would have been concerned when she arrived and learned details of how much time (40+ hours ?) her daughter had spent with police being questioned or even just waiting in the police headquarters' hallway. She would have been even more alarmed if the police were asking Amanda to account for her own whereabouts or minutia of when she ate or what she watched, as that would have caused Edda to realize that the police were looking at her daughter and had a (disguised) ulterior motive for their questions. If Amanda told her mother how she brokedown seeing the knives in her kitchen and Officer Napoleoni asking Amanda which utensil would be good to use to murder someone, Edda would have been alarmed.

Yes, the police could formally prohibit Amanda from leaving the country but that would have heightened parental suspicion and resulted in immediate lawyering-up. Edda's arrival would have changed the dynamics. Amanda could stay with her mother in a local hotel or go to Rome to meet with Embassy staff. That would have disrupted the police's ability to surveil Amanda with Raffaele and craftily manipulate the suspect.

 

[acbytesla]

According to Follain it was Mignini and not the police. Besides Follain is there any source for their fear. I think a judge wrote something. Do you have knowledge of the ILE's ability to hold Amanda or any material witness? Maybe Numbers will have that.

Say Bill is Follain where you get the Mignini called her an actress line?

Maybe you are right Grinder. They sure ran roughshod over both Amanda and Raffaele's rights.

That said, I can't imagine them not being a little concerned about a possible intervention from lawyers, the US State Department, the press, their own national government. Keep in mind they really had NOTHING on Amanda/Raffaele before those interrogations. Also, do you really think they would have held them without Amanda's statements?

 

[Bill Williams]

According to Follain it was Mignini and not the police. Besides Follain is there any source for their fear. I think a judge wrote something. Do you have knowledge of the ILE's ability to hold Amanda or any material witness? Maybe Numbers will have that.

Say Bill is Follain where you get the Mignini called her an actress line?

Yes.

Strictly speaking this is Follain not realizing a hole in his own timeline. So it may not be Mignini at all, but Follain does Mignini no favours by putting it the way he does. One page Follain is relating how Mignini thinks Amanda completely untrustworthy and purposely derailng the investigation with stellar-cunning, then next page, "We had to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him."

The only question - is this a failing of Follain's or of Mignini's or both?

 

[acbytesla]

I realize it is tough to grasp, but the US Embassy would not have made sure Amanda had a lawyer. The Embassy really acts neutrally when an American is in contact with law enforcement or the judicial process. The Embassy would have advised the Anerican to consult an attorney and would have furnished a list of lawyers who have provided their name and specialty. It is up to the American to utilize it. Unfortunately, a young American student on a budget might not utilize it.

Edda, however, would have been concerned when she arrived and learned details of how much time (40+ hours ?) her daughter had been with the police being questioned or waiting in the police headquarters' hallway. She would have been even more alarmed if the police were asking Amanda to account for her own whereabouts or minutia of when she ate or what she watched, as that would have caused Edda to realize that the police were looking at her daughter and had a (disguised) ulterior motive for their questions. If Amanda told her mother how she brokedown seeing the knives in her kitchen and Officer Napoleoni asking Amanda which utensil would be good to use to murder someone, Edda would have been alarmed.

Yes, the police could formally prohibit Amanda from leaving the country but that would have heightened parental suspicion and resulted in immediate lawyering-up. Edda's arrival would have changed the dynamics. Amanda could stay with her mother in a local hotel or go to Rome to meet with Embassy staff. That would have disrupted the police's ability to surveil Amanda with Raffaele and craftily manipulate the suspect.

Exactly . Well said.

 

[Dopre]

According to Follain it was Mignini and not the police. Besides Follain is there any source for their fear. I think a judge wrote something. Do you have knowledge of the ILE's ability to hold Amanda or any material witness? Maybe Numbers will have that.

Say Bill is Follain where you get the Mignini called her an actress line?

"Besides Follain is there any source for their fear."


Why is this "source" needed to validate the premise? Furthermore, how likely is it that the authorities would have publically divulged their thought process pertaining to this fear? Wouldn't that have placed their investigation in a rather negative light to have admitted they rushed to interrogate the pair over an arrival of a parent?

Their phones were being tapped. The investigators knew there was a possibility the arrival of Amanda's mother could pose a problem. It isn't a stretch to understand they would have wanted to get her into custody before something impeded their intentions.

 

[Ken Dine]

How this idea that Edda's pending arrival did not present a problem to the authorities involved even being argued is beyond me. Of course she presented a threat to the investigation! It is more than obvious Amanda was at the center of that investigation. Knowing her mother was on her way and coming to the aid of her daughter would have been of great concern to them. She would have most certainly impeded their plans.

How could this be lost on someone?

Have you read what actually happened when she arrived?

While Edda was in the air winging it to Italy, Amanda went from being a 'witness/person-of-interest' to a 'suspect-in-custody', and not only was Amanda placed into custody, she was immediately placed into isolation and unable to communicate with either her mom or a lawyer.

If Edda had showed up a day earlier, then there's no way she would have allowed Amanda to go to the police station at a late hour for an interrogation, and if they hadn't cracked Amanda in the wee hours before Edda had arrived, there's no way that another all-night lawyerless interrogation would have happened.

I agree that Raffaele's family should have done more, but Raffaele knew he was innocent and thought he had nothing to fear, so Raffaele had ignored his dad's advice. Raffaele likely told his dad the police (up to that point) were treating him as a witness only, which caused his dad to put his guard down.

When the police called Raffaele and asked him to come in for a late-evening interview, Raffaele should have immediately called his dad instead of meekly complying with that unreasonable police request (demand?) At that point Raffaele's dad would have surely called an attorney to intercede to stop that late-night interrogation until the attorney could arrange to be there for it.

 

[Grinder]

Yes.

Strictly speaking this is Follain not realizing a hole in his own timeline. So it may not be Mignini at all, but Follain does Mignini no favours by putting it the way he does. One page Follain is relating how Mignini thinks Amanda completely untrustworthy and purposely derailng the investigation with stellar-cunning, then next page, "We had to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him."

The only question - is this a failing of Follain's or of Mignini's or both?

Follain clearly makes stuff up. In this example he has a quote from Mignini about her being an actress but doesn't let us know when he said this. The way he writes it, it is as if he is talking to himself. I can't find any other source for this other than Follain.

You have repeated this without being challenged here. Can you tell us where, when and to whom he made the actress comment?

 

[Grinder]

Yes, the police could formally prohibit Amanda from leaving the country but that would have heightened parental suspicion and resulted in immediate lawyering-up. Edda's arrival would have changed the dynamics. Amanda could stay with her mother in a local hotel or go to Rome to meet with Embassy staff. That would have disrupted the police's ability to surveil Amanda with Raffaele and craftily manipulate the suspect.

I can see that they would have some concern and might have moved up their schedule but they didn't even call her in by 10 pm the night before.

When did they find out Edda was coming? They must have know over 24 hours before her scheduled arrival. Is there any evidence that they did anything except call in Raf?

 

[Samzilla]

The problem is this is untrue. I accept the fingerprint experts (not forensic anthropolgists or podiatrists as would be the recognised experts on footprints), claimed this. Even excluding their doubtful methodology their own results excluded Sollecito. The length of the ball of the foot is significantly different from Sollecito's. This means it can NOT be Sollecito's. If you try and adjust the length of the ball of the foot everything else falls out of kilter. The fingerprint experts tied to match using fingerprint criteria, saying they had six points of match, but ignoring the one clearly different feature. This is a bit like saying we know a six foot redheaded woman did the crime, finding a five foot redhead then declaring the Ginger must be guilty because red hair is so rare. Completely ignoring the fact that the height (which unlike hair colour is invariable) excludes them.

To the bolded:
It's also like going down to your local lotto corp and telling them you won the jackpot because you matched six of seven numbers.

 

[Zephyrgeist]

I'm really glad that I'm never likely to run into Mignini because I'd probably end up beating him to a pulp.

Amanda had met Raffaele 9 days earlier, but at least she knew him intimately. Rudy she had met two weeks ealing and not more than a few sentences were passed between them. And Rudy and Raffaele HAD NEVER EVEN MET!

But this doesn't matter to these morons. ?????

Hehehe. Maresca might need a kick-in-the-pants too.

 

[Dopre]

Yes.

Strictly speaking this is Follain not realizing a hole in his own timeline. So it may not be Mignini at all, but Follain does Mignini no favours by putting it the way he does. One page Follain is relating how Mignini thinks Amanda completely untrustworthy and purposely derailng the investigation with stellar-cunning, then next page, "We had to arrest Lumumba because Amanda accused him."

The only question - is this a failing of Follain's or of Mignini's or both?

This contradictory thought process is what has infuriated me when engaging with the PGP. We know Mignini was listening in on conversations both Raffaele and Amanda were having. This is where they zeroed in on the net they cast when tapping others they thought connected or having information they could glean. They were familiar with Lumumba long before they dragged her in for that interrogation. However, they needed to put Amanda in a position to name him. The minute she did they sent a squad to go get him. They did so all on the premise the cunning liar couldn't pull one on them! Truthiness is so easy to parse out when you are ready for it!

 

[Grinder]

"Besides Follain is there any source for their fear."


Why is this "source" needed to validate the premise? Furthermore, how likely is it that the authorities would have publically divulged their thought process pertaining to this fear? Wouldn't that have placed their investigation in a rather negative light to have admitted they rushed to interrogate the pair over an arrival of a parent?

Their phones were being tapped. The investigators knew there was a possibility the arrival of Amanda's mother could pose a problem. It isn't a stretch to understand they would have wanted to get her into custody before something impeded their intentions.

Raf's dad contacted an attorney and they didn't panick and arrest him.

I do believe there was some post facto mention of Edda's arrival by a judge which is the only thing that this credibility at all. As Strozzi confirmed they could have detained her. I disagree about Edda getting a lawyer quickly as after she was arrested it took some time.

If they were so worried, why didn't they call her in at all? Why didn't they call her in instead of Raf?

I think mom coming was a small factor. It's not like she was bringing Allred.

 

[Grinder]

This contradictory thought process is what has infuriated me when engaging with the PGP. We know Mignini was listening in on conversations both Raffaele and Amanda were having. This is where they zeroed in on the net they cast when tapping others they thought connected or having information they could glean. They were familiar with Lumumba long before they dragged her in for that interrogation. However, they needed to put Amanda in a position to name him. The minute she did they sent a squad to go get him. They did so all on the premise the cunning liar couldn't pull one on them! Truthiness is so easy to parse out when you are ready for it!

What does being familiar with Lumumba mean? When do you think they first saw the content of the text message? What time do you think they picked up Lumumba? A hint is that he was feeding his son breakfast well past the midnight time she named him. Why would they think she was a cunning liar? They thought she was a stupid liar - they even told her.

 

[acbytesla]

I can see that they would have some concern and might have moved up their schedule but they didn't even call her in by 10 pm the night before.

When did they find out Edda was coming? They must have know over 24 hours before her scheduled arrival. Is there any evidence that they did anything except call in Raf?

If they were monitoring Amanda's calls, they probably knew for some time. There probably was always a concern that Amanda might lawyer up. None of us actually know that it was. But I think it is more than reasonable to believe that this was a deadline of sorts for them.

 

[Dopre]

Raf's dad contacted an attorney and they didn't panick and arrest him.

I do believe there was some post facto mention of Edda's arrival by a judge which is the only thing that this credibility at all. As Strozzi confirmed they could have detained her. I disagree about Edda getting a lawyer quickly as after she was arrested it took some time.

If they were so worried, why didn't they call her in at all? Why didn't they call her in instead of Raf?

I think mom coming was a small factor. It's not like she was bringing Allred.

I am in the camp that believes there the authorities knew Amanda would be at the station there with Raff. We know their phones were being monitored and who is to say they were not being watched? If they went to the extent of tapping a phone it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to believe so. They also knew she had been staying with Raff and was afraid to be alone. I realize there will always be some who will never be satisfied regarding this aspect of the case, but I am one who does not need absolute proof to assess what a persons mindset might be when it comes to sequential thinking. I'm not saying I am always right, but I do have a grasp on intuitive thinking and often times I am on the money.

They went to the trouble of contacting Rome to get together interrogators. They would not have gone to the trouble of doing so if there were not a plan in place for both of them.

As far as Edda goes, I do believe they saw her as a potential hindrance to the investigation. And frankly, I see no further reason to debate it. Who knows how much of a threat they viewed it as? However, the interrogation being lined up so quickly and before the DNA evidence had been thoroughly analyzed suggests something compelled them to rush to the interrogation. It hardly seems to be a leap to attribute it to Edda's pending arrival. They were probably afraid of the possibility she could have presented an obstacle.

 

[Bill Williams]

This contradictory thought process is what has infuriated me when engaging with the PGP. We know Mignini was listening in on conversations both Raffaele and Amanda were having. This is where they zeroed in on the net they cast when tapping others they thought connected or having information they could glean. They were familiar with Lumumba long before they dragged her in for that interrogation. However, they needed to put Amanda in a position to name him. The minute she did they sent a squad to go get him. They did so all on the premise the cunning liar couldn't pull one on them! Truthiness is so easy to parse out when you are ready for it!

This is not the only bait and switch Follain has in his book.

He really does have to set up the "fact" that the PLE was right to suspect AK and RS all along. It is why Follain constructs the narrative the way he does - When Battistelli says, "This is no burglary," Follain concludes that thought with Amanda and Raffaele "saying nothing". Presumably they say nothing because they know why it is no-burglary. So says Follain.

Similarly, Follain constructs his narrative so that Raffaele seems suspicious to Napoleoni for trying to point out the pooh in the toilet. He seemed TOO forceful in that. (P. 77 A Death in Italy: "(Napoleoni) was puzzled and guessed that for some reason or other, Amanda and Raffaele wanted to make sure that she would notice it." (The non-suspicious alternative does not occur to Follain in his narrative.)

Bait.

Now switch.

At interrogation, Knox has to catch them all completely off guard by "naming Lumumba".

Before ANY questioning could result from Ficarra making the bare assertion that the "Sure, See you later, Have a good evening!" (cf. p 134), Amanda is banging herself on the forehead and accusing Patrick. No intervention (mediation from Donnino, no slap on the head, no accusation of liar, no demand to imagine).

Completely. Off. Guard. Ficarra, acc. to Follain, abruptly ends the interrogation and informs Napoleoni.

No clue whatsoever that Amanda is involved, until she abruptly and with no goading or warning, names Lumumba.

Follain cannot have both. It is telling that nearly all guilter narratives, such as they are, include this kind of, "having your cake and eating it too."

 

[Dopre]

What does being familiar with Lumumba mean? When do you think they first saw the content of the text message? What time do you think they picked up Lumumba? A hint is that he was feeding his son breakfast well past the midnight time she named him. Why would they think she was a cunning liar? They thought she was a stupid liar - they even told her.

"What does being familiar with Lumumba mean?"

What do you think it means? After this many years debating on this forum, I would think you would know what it means.

"When do you think they first saw the content of the text message?"

How would I know the answer to this? Furthermore, why would you expect me to know the answer to this?

"What time do you think they picked up Lumumba? A hint is that he was feeding his son breakfast well past the midnight time she named him."

So what?

"Why would they think she was a cunning liar? They thought she was a stupid liar - they even told her."

Grinder, why are you arguing what kind of liar she was being presented as? The point is they thought she was a liar until she told them the truth they knew.

 

[Grinder]

I am in the camp that believes there the authorities knew Amanda would be at the station there with Raff. We know their phones were being monitored and who is to say they were not being watched? If they went to the extent of tapping a phone it certainly wouldn't be a stretch to believe so. They also knew she had been staying with Raff and was afraid to be alone. I realize there will always be some who will never be satisfied regarding this aspect of the case, but I am one who does not need absolute proof to assess what a persons mindset might be when it comes to sequential thinking. I'm not saying I am always right, but I do have a grasp on intuitive thinking and often times I am on the money.

They went to the trouble of contacting Rome to get together interrogators. They would not have gone to the trouble of doing so if there were not a plan in place for both of them.

As far as Edda goes, I do believe they saw her as a potential hindrance to the investigation. And frankly, I see no further reason to debate it. Who knows how much of a threat they viewed it as? However, the interrogation being lined up so quickly and before the DNA evidence had been thoroughly analyzed suggests something compelled them to rush to the interrogation. It hardly seems to be a leap to attribute it to Edda's pending arrival. They were probably afraid of the possibility she could have presented an obstacle.

You should bet with Bill you could make a fortune.

If their concern is as great as portrayed they would have called her in and not relied on your their intuitive thinking.

What interrogators did they call in for the 5th nighttime sessions?

They had been doing interviews from the very first day and had interviewed all sorts of people. We really don't know how they treated people like Shaky.

 

[Methos]

According to Follain it was Mignini and not the police. Besides Follain is there any source for their fear. I think a judge wrote something. Do you have knowledge of the ILE's ability to hold Amanda or any material witness? Maybe Numbers will have that.

Say Bill is Follain where you get the Mignini called her an actress line?

It looks like the connection between the arrival of Mrs Mellas in Perugia and the arrest of Amanda Knox was made by Judge Matteini in her reasoning for denying house-arrest (another document that isn't available )
Frank Sfarzo had this on Perugia Shock in the post "Fight for the Freedom 2":

As for the flight risk, it is still present. Your family lives in the United States, so it would be extremely easy for you to leave the country. The fact that you did not do so before you were arrested is totally irrelevant. We must remind you that your arrest was made very early, and was effected purposely before the arrival of your mother in order to avoid just such a possibility.