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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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I'm going to call it a night, but please consider these two, brief animated GIFs. The first includes a list of Kellerman's reactions to the shot at 285. I honestly don't know how any rational person can doubt that this man was exhibiting classic startle reactions.

http://www.jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif

In this animation, from the 1996 bombing of Olympic village, watch the lady in black to the far right of the screen. Notice that she briefly raises her hand to her ear, almost exactly as Kellerman did, and she also raised and then quickly lowered her shoulders, also like Kellerman did.

http://jfkhistory.com/atlanta1996.gif
I don't see why any reasonable person would just accept as fact your layman's analysis and inference that Kellerman was exhibiting a startle reaction.

As to your second gif, rifle fire (suppressed or otherwise) and IED explosions are apples and oranges.
 
No, I haven't and I probably won't for awhile. My experience has been that none of the major newspapers will even consider JFK conspiracy theories these day.
But you have proof! Proof, not of a conspiracy theory, but of an actual, proven, fact-based, air-tight conspiracy!

Right?

Do you have reason to believe that this person might be more open-minded on this?
The man has won a Pulitzer Prize for journalism! Stories of import are ipso-facto the air that he breathes!
 
Greer, BTW, began his turn within a third of a second following 285, so it had to have been involuntary.

You don't think it is more likely that Greer's turning around had something to do with the commotion going on behind him?

If you didn't already know, Greer was tasked with protecting the POTUS. Turning around to see what was going on, you know, the whole 2 gunshots, President and Governor shot, wives screaming, and all that was in the job description. IMO he was already responding to the first two shots. It would even account for him taking his foot off the gas and the passenger lurch.

You want to know something else? My theory is more valid than yours as I don't have to include phantom shooters, extraordinary weapons, or the misrepresentation of scientists living or dead.
 
Originally Posted by Robert Harris View Post
I honestly don't know how any rational person can doubt that this man was exhibiting classic startle reactions.



"Such reports are usually based on the sighting of something the sighters cannot explain and that they (or someone else on their behalf) explain as representing an interstellar spaceship-often by saying "But what else can it be?" as though their own ignorance is a decisive factor." Isaac Asimov
Kind of sums it up.
 
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This rifle was apparently, only used up to about 100 feet. The shots after that, were obviously unsuppressed and enormously louder.
What rifle? It remains a figment of your imagination until you can point to it.

Well, some suspicions are better than others. I think that if a teenager or an Alabama redneck can do it, pretty much anyone else can, who sets his mind to it.
They are making reductions to muzzle noise; they're not making those guns anywhere near silent.

No, I can't prove that and I don't intend to try.
Then you are wasting your time here.

Sorry, I didn't get the make and model, but yes, there is plenty of evidence it existed.
Sounds lke there is zero evidence it existed. Try harder.

A low caliber, suppressed weapon is the only plausible explanation for the shots at 150-160 and 223, since only one of them was even audible to most witnesses and neither were able to generate the kind of startle reactions we see, following the shots at 285 and 313.
Tell me again what extensive experience you have with suppressed firearms aimed/fired past you so that you can be aware of what they sound like?

I won't say "totally", but it's close. Move the timer to about 1:25.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haiqFcIXTqs
Surely you understand that recording gunfire on a camcorder, compressing it with mpeg or flv formatting then playing it back on a computer completely crushes any realism with respect to sound reproduction. If you wanted realistic sound reproduction then you would have to start with a microphone with a minimum 20 micro-second response time to pick up the noise and finish with headphones or speakers capable of blasting greater than 160 decibels at the ear.

Those guns are nowhere near quiet, not even close.

I will if you can give me a good reason. What specific facts did they get wrong?

Here are some. Why would you choose this article to prop up your arguments? Is it because it supported the arguments you made? Picking evidence in this fashion completely destroys what you try to prove.
Generally illegal for individuals to own in most parts of the world,
False, in fact never illegal in the USA.

Silencers that fire regular supersonic ammunition are only a little quieter than those without suppressors.
A good silencer that reduces sound by 30 decibels makes the gun much less noisy even if supersonic ammo is used. This is obvious to the observer standing next to the shooter. It can be much less obvious to a person watching a video on a computer with cheap speakers.

Subsonic ammunition has less power than regular ammunition, making it effective only at shorter ranges of up to 600 feet (200 meters).
The general consensus among shooters is that hitting a target with subsonic ammo becomes much harder at ranges past 200 yards due to the rainbow like trajectory of the bullet. I've had no problem hitting targets out to 550 yards with subsonic ammo. My 510 whisper using 950 grain bullets delivers 2330 ft-lbs at the muzzle and still has over 1600 ft-lbs at 600 yards as it doesn't slow down as much as a supersonic bullet.

Silencers can be attached to most firearms, but they work best as components of purpose built or modified guns.
Wrong and stupid. Almost any bolt action, single shot, lever action and most semi-autos are quite well suited for suppression. Exceptions are revolvers (except the 1895 Nagant), black powder guns and based on my experience, the M-1 carbine. Threaded muzzles are more common than ever now; this is usually all it takes to attach a silencer.

Here is a clue that the article is a very bad source of information;
Truby, J. David. Silencers, Snipers and Assassins: An Overview of Whispering Death. Boulder, CO: Paladin Press, 1972.
Not only is it out of date, some of it is just plain wrong.

Using an article like this just exposes a person's inexperience with the subject.

Ranb
 
...acts completely differently than the guy next to her. If you intended this to be proof of the alleged universality of a "startle reponse," the way you formulate it, it didn't work.

Well, you know..."startle reflexes take many forms." They can be whatever you need them to be; and even their absence is proof of something. Nothing more universal than that, is there?

(I don't know why it took so long to click for me, but, until seeing Jack by the hedge's response to Bob's quoted "only plausible explanation" above, I could not understand why Bob was bringing silenced rifles into his scenario- it just seems so unnecessary. But, of course- if you have "startle reflexes" proving a shot at 285, you must account for the lack of those reflexes to any earlier ones. Hence, silenced rifles for which there is no other evidence than their necessity to the theory. That principle of sinsilience at work again- no wonder he's holding on like grim death to the "startle reflexes.")
 
You don't think it is more likely that Greer's turning around had something to do with the commotion going on behind him?

If you didn't already know, Greer was tasked with protecting the POTUS. Turning around to see what was going on, you know, the whole 2 gunshots, President and Governor shot, wives screaming, and all that was in the job description. IMO he was already responding to the first two shots. It would even account for him taking his foot off the gas and the passenger lurch.

You want to know something else? My theory is more valid than yours as I don't have to include phantom shooters, extraordinary weapons, or the misrepresentation of scientists living or dead.

No, no, no, you don't understand- here, let me explain, using BobLogicTM. It could not have been Greer simply turning to see what was happening in the back of the car, because he began the totally involuntary movement, as part of a startle reflex, within 1/3 of a second of the shot at 285, a shot we know happened there because he began his totally involuntary movement, as part of a startle reflex, within 1/3 of a second of it. And we know he wasn't reacting to the sounds of earlier shots, because they were silenced, which we know because he wasn't reacting to them, which we know because his startle reflex was to 285, and couldn't have been to any earlier ones, because they were silenced, which we know because he wasn't reacting to them.

So...ok? I hope we have that little misunderstanding cleared up.
 
I wrote here:
« Now, Bob, this exemplifies the reason people say you don't understand the critiques made of your theory. I didn't say—and what kind of idiot would?—"that no one would spin around in reaction to a loud noise."»

I'll just add, as it is indeed a remarkable fact, that Bob offered the same misinterpretation of this point on the alt.assassination.jfk newsgroup several times and was, of course, "corrected." Or so I would have thought!
 
I'll just add, as it is indeed a remarkable fact, that Bob offered the same misinterpretation of this point on the alt.assassination.jfk newsgroup several times and was, of course, "corrected." Or so I would have thought!

Would it be fair, then, to characterize his approach and argument here as little if any changed from that which he has presented elsewhere, rebuttals and responses notwithstanding?
 
Would it be fair, then, to characterize his approach and argument here as little if any changed from that which he has presented elsewhere, rebuttals and responses notwithstanding?

Yes, indeed, and his responses to the inevitable rebuttals are virtually canned as well.

I've told him there is no point in arguing with someone who cannot restate his opponent's argument in a way that they themselves would recognize.
 
Binge watching Grey's Anatomy with a friend and thought I'd check in to reply to anything important. Did everyone look at these vids? I'm surprised there have been no comments on them.

http://www.jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif

In this animation, from the 1996 bombing of Olympic village, watch the lady in black to the far right of the screen. Notice that she briefly raises her hand to her ear, almost exactly as Kellerman did, and she also raised and then quickly lowered her shoulders, also like Kellerman did.

http://jfkhistory.com/atlanta1996.gif
 
[...]It could not have been Greer simply turning to see what was happening in the back of the car, because he began the totally involuntary movement, as part of a startle reflex, within 1/3 of a second of the shot at 285, a shot we know happened there because he began his totally involuntary movement, as part of a startle reflex, within 1/3 of a second of it.[...]

Exactly. No consilience, just a few insufficiently substantiated suppositions propped against one another to give an illusion of solidity.
 
Binge watching Grey's Anatomy with a friend and thought I'd check in to reply to anything important. Did everyone look at these vids? I'm surprised there have been no comments on them.

Why yes, I did comment on your video links. Why haven't you responded to my comments?

Here's the problem with your post. It makes it look like you're currying attention. You post links, and then you post them again for any who might have missed them, and then you keep doing that for the benefit of newcomers. Fine, but then you cite your view-count and comments as evidence that you're right -- or at least on the right track. There's a bit of a conflict of interest there. So when you check in to ask why your view count hasn't gone up or why comments haven't been posted, it makes it hard for us to believe that your motives in making the video were motivated by intellectual altruism.

So you post the links yet again.
 
I've told him there is no point in arguing with someone who cannot restate his opponent's argument in a way that they themselves would recognize.

I would invite you to go back and read my article describing the difference between consilience and the Harrician practice of guided interpretation. Then read Robert's responses; the knee-jerk objections wrapped around cherry-picked words and phrases. It's astounding how utterly unlike my argument his restatement of it was. I think I see what you mean.
 
That would be reread, and I enjoyed it very much.
I also like "Harrician."

That certainly is important!

Sandy, in your "rebuttal" of the shot at 285, how did you deal with the large consensus of witnesses who reported a single early shot and then closely bunched shots at the end?

And did you explain why Alvarez discovered Zapruder reacting in the same 18th of a second that the limo passengers began to duck, spin around, etc?

Also, did you find any reactions to the early shots that were similar to these?

http://jfkhistory.com/ducking3.gif

Those early shots should have been louder and more startling to them, than the ones at the end. Why did almost no one hear one of them and why did none of them provoke anything resembling a startle reaction?
 
Exactly. No consilience, just a few insufficiently substantiated suppositions propped against one another to give an illusion of solidity.

BTW, Sandy, what are your thoughts on Kellerman? Do you have a better explanation than I do for why he simultaneously ducked, raised his hand to his ear for 5/18ths of a second and briefly shrugged his shoulder upwards?

Perhaps, this might be helpful to you.

http://www.jfkhistory.com/kellerman2.gif
 
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