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Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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Because as a pope he is as much a politician as needed to be as the head of catholics, many of whom hold the shroud to be a holy relic.

The question has been settled from the physic point of view. In a way the shroud was even more tested than most artifact, more under scrutinity than your average middle age cheesecloth.

But the religious question ? it will never be settled. If Christianity cannot settle for big stuff like virgin Mary and saint (catholic vs protestant) why do you think they would use science to settle on such trifling as the shroud ? No, believer will believe in spite of science, jsut like many American disbelieve the theory of natural selection in spite of the science.

Despite what some in this thread using statistical artifacts, from the science POV, the shroud is definitively (as definitive can 3 carbon dating together give a date) from a set period after the 13th to 14th century CE.

According to De Wesselow, the 1988 carbon dating exercise was defective. Three samples were sent to each of Arizona, Oxford and Zurich.

Zurich claimed one sample was1,000years too late and another 1,000 too early.

There was no control, as the distinctive linen weave was immediately recognisable.

Archeological scientists were excluded. As carbon dating is imprecise, contrary to general perception, archeologists consider historical context when estimating dates.

Evidence points to the shroud having been in existence long before 1260: the fact that the lignin in the fibres of the cloth has lost its vanillin, indicate it is over 1,300.

It is a crucified figure, crucifixion was outlawed in Christendom in C4.

Scourge marks show antiquities era - the use of a Roman flagrum - as well as the weave showing antiquity, not the Middle Ages.

If Middle Ages the art would be idealised, not the stark image we have.

Analysing art, takes it back at least to C6.

Lab samples were contaminated or chemically altered.

Similar thing happened with British Museum mummies: carbon dating found the cloth to be 1,000 younger than the body. Dr. Rosalie David knew this was wrong as the mummies had not been rewrapped.

Part of the shroud was scorched.

Bioplastic coating transferred bacteria and fungi to the cloth.

De Wesselow writes: "The carbon dating of the Shroud will probably go down in history as one of the greatest fiascos in the history of science".

It doesn't seem to me to be "settled" "the Shroud dates to C13".
 
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According to De Wesselow, the 1988 carbon dating exercise was defective. Three samples were sent to each of Arizona, Oxford and Zurich.

Zurich claimed one sample was1,000years too late and another 1,000 too early.

There was no control, as the distinctive linen weave was immediately recognisable.

Archeological scientists were excluded. As carbon dating is imprecise, contrary to general perception, archeologists consider historical context when estimating dates.

Evidence points to the shroud having been in existence long before 1260: the fact that the lignin in the fibres of the cloth has lost its vanillin, indicate it is over 1,300.

It is a crucified figure, crucifixion was outlawed in Christendom in C4.

Scourge marks show antiquities era - the use of a Roman flagrum - as well as the weave showing antiquity, not the Middle Ages.

If Middle Ages the art would be idealised, not the stark image we have.

Analysing art, takes it back at least to C6.

Lab samples were contaminated or chemically altered.

Similar thing happened with British Museum mummies: carbon dating found the cloth to be 1,000 younger than the body. Dr. Rosalie David knew this was wrong as the mummies had not been rewrapped.

Part of the shroud was scorched.

Bioplastic coating transferred bacteria and fungi to the cloth.

De Wesselow writes: "The carbon dating of the Shroud will probably go down in history as one of the greatest fiascos in the history of science".

It doesn't seem to me to be "settled" "the Shroud dates to C13".

It is settled for those who understand the testing protocol best. This was the best performed, controlled, and documented 14C dating in the history of the test.

I'm not going to waste a lot of time explaining to a lay person why this analysis is crap after it's been done again and again in these threads already. Read the threads if you want an explanation.
 
I conccur to John Jones, especially when you tout long debunked stuff like the vanillin test.

As for crucifixion in art being outlawed. LOL. As if outlawing something stopped artist "Starting in the 4th century CE, crucifixion imagery began to appear in art. ". 4th Century.

"Scourge marks show antiquities era - the use of a Roman flagrum - as well as the weave showing antiquity, not the Middle Ages." of which the middle age scholar were aware and would have used if they wanted to reproduce the spectacle. Art is best when reproducing life.


"Part of the shroud was scorched.
Bioplastic coating transferred bacteria and fungi to the cloth.
"

None of which would have made the shroud younger by a quantity of 1000 years. If you are aware of the concept of carbon dating, then you are aware that the quantity of *modern* carbon which would need to be added would be tremendous compared to sample weight. Or even if you consider contemporain carbon to the fire.

I won't bother with the rest as it is about as baseless as the above.

FFS ! Read . The. thread. You are showing old old OLD debunked arguments.
 
I conccur to John Jones, especially when you tout long debunked stuff like the vanillin test.

As for crucifixion in art being outlawed. LOL. As if outlawing something stopped artist "Starting in the 4th century CE, crucifixion imagery began to appear in art. ". 4th Century.

"Scourge marks show antiquities era - the use of a Roman flagrum - as well as the weave showing antiquity, not the Middle Ages." of which the middle age scholar were aware and would have used if they wanted to reproduce the spectacle. Art is best when reproducing life.


"Part of the shroud was scorched.
Bioplastic coating transferred bacteria and fungi to the cloth.
"

None of which would have made the shroud younger by a quantity of 1000 years. If you are aware of the concept of carbon dating, then you are aware that the quantity of *modern* carbon which would need to be added would be tremendous compared to sample weight. Or even if you consider contemporain carbon to the fire. Heck calculate it by yourself ! You will quickly check that out : the amount of 14C to add to make the cloth newer would be tremendous and not possible the way presented.

I won't bother with the rest as it is about as baseless as the above.

FFS ! Read . The. thread. You are showing old old OLD debunked arguments.
 
According to De Wesselow, the 1988 carbon dating exercise was defective. Three samples were sent to each of Arizona, Oxford and Zurich.

Zurich claimed one sample was1,000years too late and another 1,000 too early.
Nope. They were all pretty close.
Tucson: 646 ± 31 years old
Oxford: 750 ± 30 years old
Zürich: 676 ± 24 years old
Reference.
Where you get this + or - 1,000 yrs is anyone's guess.

There was no control, as the distinctive linen weave was immediately recognisable.
What control is it you desire? Three samples independantly analysed is in what way insufficient?

Archeological scientists were excluded.
This isn't archaeology.

As carbon dating is imprecise, contrary to general perception, archeologists consider historical context when estimating dates.
It is sufficiently precise. Or demonstrate that it is not.

Evidence points to the shroud having been in existence long before 1260:
Citation required.

the fact that the lignin in the fibres of the cloth has lost its vanillin, indicate it is over 1,300.
Not this again. Read the thread. Done to death.

It is a crucified figure, crucifixion was outlawed in Christendom in C4.
Artistic representation of crucifixion was not outlawed.

Scourge marks show antiquities era - the use of a Roman flagrum - as well as the weave showing antiquity, not the Middle Ages.
An artist would be well familiar with the biblical accounts. There is no reason that they could not have represented such.
The weave was unknown in antiquity, only appearing in the middle ages.

If Middle Ages the art would be idealised, not the stark image we have.
But it is stylised in the very style common to the middle ages. Byzantine style, I believe. Whatever, chisel shaped heads never existed, ever. The anatomic proportions are not just wrong, but impossible and the cloth itself does not conform to biblical accounts, so if you wish to claim the authenticity of the CIQ, you must perforce deny biblical accuracy.

Analysing art, takes it back at least to C6.
Citation required.

Lab samples were contaminated or chemically altered.
Citation required.

Similar thing happened with British Museum mummies: carbon dating found the cloth to be 1,000 younger than the body. Dr. Rosalie David knew this was wrong as the mummies had not been rewrapped.
Irrelevant.

Part of the shroud was scorched.
Of course it was, there was a fire from which the tablecloth had to be salvaged. So what?

Bioplastic coating transferred bacteria and fungi to the cloth.
Did they? Citation required.

De Wesselow writes: "The carbon dating of the Shroud will probably go down in history as one of the greatest fiascos in the history of science".
Yup. Because it will be held up as an example of how people can cling to their cherish crackpot beliefs despite all evidence to the contrary.

It doesn't seem to me to be "settled" "the Shroud dates to C13".
Tough. It's settled. Done. Over.

Now, what fascinates me is why so many cling to the discredited notion of the authenticity of the shroud. Even if they were to concede and accept it as fake, it would have no bearing upon their faith AT ALL.

I can only conceive of a few possibilities.
1. Their faith is so frail that the shroud being fake would destroy their faith. In that case, it is simple fear of the unknown that would lie before them.
2. It is essential to maintain the charade to bolster the faith of others. In that case, it is simply lying for jebus and a cynical exercise in hypocrisy.
3. They are so personally invested over many years that they cannot afford to confront the idea that it has been a waste of time and effort.
4. Something else of which I am unaware. Feel free.

In any event, the shroud being a fake has no hand act or part in anyone's faith. A christian should, in theory, not care a whit. In fact, according to the bible, it is a sin to invest so much in an artefact. This is one of the rare points of agreement between myself and the bible. Why become so invested in a piece of cloth that you neglect the directives of your faith?
 
According to De Wesselow, the 1988 carbon dating exercise was defective. Three samples were sent to each of Arizona, Oxford and Zurich.

Zurich claimed one sample was1,000years too late and another 1,000 too early.

There was no control, as the distinctive linen weave was immediately recognisable.

Archeological scientists were excluded. As carbon dating is imprecise, contrary to general perception, archeologists consider historical context when estimating dates.

Evidence points to the shroud having been in existence long before 1260: the fact that the lignin in the fibres of the cloth has lost its vanillin, indicate it is over 1,300.

It is a crucified figure, crucifixion was outlawed in Christendom in C4.

Scourge marks show antiquities era - the use of a Roman flagrum - as well as the weave showing antiquity, not the Middle Ages.

If Middle Ages the art would be idealised, not the stark image we have.

Analysing art, takes it back at least to C6.

Lab samples were contaminated or chemically altered.

Similar thing happened with British Museum mummies: carbon dating found the cloth to be 1,000 younger than the body. Dr. Rosalie David knew this was wrong as the mummies had not been rewrapped.

Part of the shroud was scorched.

Bioplastic coating transferred bacteria and fungi to the cloth.

De Wesselow writes: "The carbon dating of the Shroud will probably go down in history as one of the greatest fiascos in the history of science".

It doesn't seem to me to be "settled" "the Shroud dates to C13".

Are you planning to read the rest of the thread? Because all of your arguments are soundly rebutted above and it seems like a lot of senseless work to just reiterate these objections for you as a newcomer if you don't.

I would truly value new reasons for why these prior rebuttals are indeed incorrect. Whether I am persuaded by the new information or not, it would represent a breath of fresh air to this thread. But first please find out why the vast majority of the posters here have heard these same arguments multiple times before, discussed them at length, and have presented documented evidence for why these pro-Shroud arguments are fatally flawed.

Of course we could be wrong. But not addressing the detailed discussions that have led to our rejection of your arguments, perhaps based your apparent belief that we have never seen them before, seems rather silly if you are hoping to convince anyone here.
 
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Are you planning to read the rest of the thread? Because all of your arguments are soundly rebutted above and it seems like a lot of senseless work to just reiterate these objections for you as a newcomer if you don't.

I would truly value new reasons for why these prior rebuttals are indeed incorrect. Whether I am persuaded by the new information or not, it would represent a breath of fresh air to this thread. But first please find out why the vast majority of the posters here have heard these same arguments multiple times before, discussed them at length, and have presented documented evidence for why these pro-Shroud arguments are fatally flawed.

Of course we could be wrong. But not addressing the detailed discussions that have led to our rejection of your arguments, perhaps based your apparent belief that we have never seen them before, seems rather silly if you are hoping to convince anyone here.
Good luck. Best you can hope for is a recycling of the same tired non-arguments that have been trounced again and again in this very thread. Fringe reset, where art thou.
 
Good luck. Best you can hope for is a recycling of the same tired non-arguments that have been trounced again and again in this very thread. Fringe reset, where art thou.

I was wondering if there was some specific name for a fringe reset engendered by a new person entering a thread without making an attempt to research the history of the thread. In sports, bringing in a fresh player is called a substitution. A substitution fringe reset? When sports substitutes enter a game is the score reset to zero-zero?
 
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Man Hollywood really is going overboard with reboots! They even rebooted this thread!

Darn now I've got to relearn the origin story and get used to the new actors.
 
I was wondering if there was some specific name for a fringe reset engendered by a new person entering a thread without making an attempt to research the history of the thread. In sports, bringing in a fresh player is called a substitution. A substitution fringe reset? When sports substitutes enter a game is the score reset to zero-zero?
If there isn't, there should be.

How about a substition. Nobody believes it, but it is a real thing.

<apologies, Sir Pratchett>
 
So Vixen, you have nothing apart from what has already been claimed and debunked quite thoroughly here by, I will say with absolutely no hesitation, by those "sciencier than you (or Jabba, or even De Wesselow".

And I am not talking about the posts immediately above, but the vast number of discussions that have occurred over two threads. You have not brought up one thing that has not already been debunked. Dont embarass yourself any more and take some effort to atleast read up the discussion in the threads before your next post.
 
I will do in due course. De Wesselow presented both sides of the argument. If the question has already been settled, why was the Pope seen on tv a few days ago revering it ... ?
That question's a joke, isn't it? This is from the Economist.
And at the heart of all this activity is a great mystery. The last few popes have spoken of the shroud with awe and encouraged people to contemplate it, but the Vatican has in recent years avoided any pronouncement on whether the cloth really is the one that covered Jesus.
The Pope was careful to endorse the authenticity of the Shroud in no way, during his recent visit to Turin. Read his words.

ETA. Here they are, from the National Catholic Reporter.
In his written message, Francis said that the face in the shroud “invites us to contemplate Jesus of Nazareth. This image … speaks to our heart and moves us to climb the hill of Calvary, to look upon the wood of the Cross, and to immerse ourselves in the eloquent silence of love.”

“By means of the Holy Shroud, the unique and supreme Word of God comes to us: Love made man, incarnate in our history; the merciful love of God who has taken upon himself all the evil of the world to free us from its power,” Francis said.

“This disfigured face resembles all those faces of men and women marred by a life which does not respect their dignity, by war and violence which afflict the weakest.”

At the end, the pope appended a prayer before the crucifix from St. Francis of Assisi.

In any event, enthusiasm for the Shroud of Turin does not seem terribly diminished by the debate over its authenticity.
 
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Monza,
- No, you're wrong. Simply showing that the carbon dating was wrong would increase the probability that the image was of Alfred the Great. Not by a whole lot...

No, Jabba. It wouldn't increase the probability one bit. Stop arguing this: you simply are ignorant of how probabilities work. If you want to change that, take a course.

In the mean time, please present direct evidence for a 2000 year age of the Shroud now.
 
To play devil's advocate

Don't. Don't give Jabba room to maneuver. He's been on this thread for YEARS and he hasn't made any progress whatsoever.

I really wish people would stop moving in circles along with Jabba. What possible result could this have ? If ALL request the evidence and refuse to respond to him until he does, at least we won't be wasting breath on him.
 
*Sighs* One person agreed with him. That will give him the ammo for another 10 years of posts.

At this point it's just practice. It's like a martial arts master doing the exact same kick over and over.
 
*Sighs* One person agreed with him. That will give him the ammo for another 10 years of posts.

At this point it's just practice. It's like a martial arts master doing the exact same kick over and over.
 
*Sighs* One person agreed with him. That will give him the ammo for another 10 years of posts.

At this point it's just practice. It's like a martial arts master doing the exact same kick over and over.
 
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