Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

[Craig4]

Rather than trying to be cute, why don't you try saying this in the mirror: "I believe that Jesus Christ is my rock and redeemer. Through his sacrifice, I am saved from damnation. I believe this as a matter of faith without need for any evidence outside the peace Jesus grants my soul. Faith without proof is the highest form of worship. As such, I need no outside validation. My obsession with the Shroud of Turin ends here."

I think he is still here because he knows he can't do that anymore. He's tried to apply science to faith and his faith came up short. He's stuck in limbo. He can't go back to just believing and he can't support his faith with reason. So, he either needs to abandon his faith or power through and find a reason to keep it. This is why mixing science and faith is a bad idea. When Stephen Gould said science and religion are non overlapping magisteria, it may not have been science he was trying to protect.

 

[Susheel]

- You're right.
- I was trying to be cute.

We have a saying in the part of rural India I am from:

"A young calf frolicking around in a field is cute. Not so, a full grown buffalo."

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

I have access, but I will only quote a portion to keep to "fair use:"

"These issues were in fact addressed at the time of the initial report by one of the investigators, the late Teddy Hall of Oxford University (Archaeometry 31, 92–95; 1989). Hall pointed out that if the linen was truly 2,000 years old, it would have to be contaminated with as much as 40 percent of modern carbon to give the date measured. Moreover, the data did not vary between samples washed to different degrees. And tests on other samples of cloth gave unchanged dates for various degrees of scorching."

Also this is a "News and Views," essentially an editorial or letter-like article offering one person's opinion. It does not present any research data itself, and represents mostly a puff piece saying that despite the apparent accuracy of the 14C data, there are people who don't agree and therefore it would be great to test more of the Shroud, although that is very unlikely. I see this as a typical "Well of course we can't rule out magic or some exceedingly unlikely physical event, so if you are a believer, don't cancel your subscription."

Thanks, although I was hoping for the portion already quoted in context.

 

[The Don]

Mr. Savage:

...as long as you realize that the question, addressed by the ¹⁴C dating, is NOT, "Is the CIQ either ~2000 years old, or is it ~780 years old?" this is fine as far as it goes. I might suggest that the actual question asked by the ¹⁴C dating was, instead, "How old is the CIQ?", to which the evidence-based answer is, "~780 years old".

Notice the corollary to identifying the question correctly. Even if the ¹⁴C dating were proved to be a pulled-from-an-orifice-SWAG, that would not, in any way, indicate that the CIQ was ~2000 years old. It would not "increase the likelihood" that the CIQ was ~2000 years old. In fact, it would not address in any way the claim that the CIQ was ~2000 years old. At most, you could sway that the failure of the ¹⁴C dating simply meant that the apparent age of the CIQ (~780 years) was not supported by ¹⁴C dating. You would still have to deal with historical provenance, physical characteristics, and contemporary accounts--all of which also indicate an age of ~780 years old.

What you really, really ought to be doing is marshaling and presenting the objective, empirical, non-anecdotal, non-apologetic evidence the indicates that the CIQ is ~2000 years old. Really you should.

^ This

Jabba, I don't know whether you're familiar with the TV show Antiques Roadshow. It's popular in the UK and I believe that the show and its format are popular worldwide. People bring along their antiques and experts give their opinion on the age and value of the items. None of the items AFAIK are subjected to carbon dating but the experts are usually able to provide an assessment as to the age and value.

No doubt their assessment comes down to a variety of things but in essence they determine whether an item is of an age based on an objective assessment of the characteristics of the item and a subjective "feel" for whether the object is "right". This helps them differentiate between genuine items and modern reproductions (or fakes).

For example, among my guitar collection I have two guitars, one which is genuinely a 1967 made guitar (a Maton DC545) and one which is a reproduction of a 1960's guitar (a Johnny Marr Fender Jaguar). Anyone who knew much about guitars would be able to spot that the latter is a reproduction. The serial number points to a recent build, the electronics and hardware are modern and the overall condition of the guitar isn't consistent with it being 50 years old. The Maton on the other hand, even though it is in great shape (I don't think it's ever really been played) feels "right" for its age, the varnish is a little degraded, the hardware and electronics are period and the wood and manufacturing techniques are right for a guitar of that age.

Now the Maton could be a perfectly "reliced" reproduction. The Shroud OTOH is all wrong. The provenance, manufacturing approach image and so on all point to it being a reproduction (rather like my Fender Jaguar). If all these things were right then it still wouldn't prove the age of the Shroud (much less who it originally belonged to) but at least it would give some support to its purported age.

Of course Jabba will no doubt claim that the Shroud is authentic BECAUSE it is such a poor reproduction and that someone looking to fake it would have made a much better job of it. The fact that it is all wrong is the strongest proof of its authenticity. I think this is a version of the Chewbacca Defence^TM.

 

[Craig B]

Coal was certainly present, and probably burned to a small extent. However, the Middle Ages seemed to focus on renewables--animal fats, wood, and the like ...

Not that it's relevant to the Shroud's dating; but coal was used in the Middle Ages more than is generally believed.

In medieval London, pollution from coal burning was seen as such a serious matter that a commission was established in 1285 to investigate the problem. It was reconvened three years later with firm instructions to find a solution. In 1307, during the reign of Edward I, legislation was introduced to prevent the use of sea coal in kilns and by blacksmiths.

http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/sciences/environment/GreatFog/fog2.html While

In 12th century China, iron works, fed by coal, produced more pig-iron in just one region than the whole of Britain produced in Britain annually in the 1700s.

https://grandemotte.wordpress.com/the-story-of-coal/

Natural gas deposits were used in certain industries, where they occurred conveniently in China, the gas being conveyed in bamboo pipes.

 

[Craig4]

Jabba, I'm curious; would you mind sharing Richard Dawkins's actual quote, in its entirety?

 

[Squeegee Beckenheim]

Jabba, I'm curious; would you mind sharing Richard Dawkins's actual quote, in its entirety?

I already have done upthread.

 

[Craig4]

I already have done upthread.

Darn, too clever by half.

 

[Dinwar]

Not that it's relevant to the Shroud's dating; but coal was used in the Middle Ages more than is generally believed. http://www.staffs.ac.uk/schools/sciences/environment/GreatFog/fog2.html While https://grandemotte.wordpress.com/the-story-of-coal/

Natural gas deposits were used in certain industries, where they occurred conveniently in China, the gas being conveyed in bamboo pipes.

Very cool! Thank you!

This is why I keep coming back to this thread: we all know the answer to the main question, but fascinating info like this keeps popping up.

 

[John Jones]

- It can if my wish is for evidence that the shroud is 2000 years old.

Jabba, I would like to ask a question: Have you had any formal education in logic?

I have a follow-up question if the answer is in the affirmative.

 

[Loss Leader]

Jabba, I would like to ask a question: Have you had any formal education in logic?

I have a follow-up question if the answer is in the affirmative.

I think I remember him claiming some training in statistics for his job. I might be confusing him with someone else.

 

[HighRiser]

Jabba, I would like to ask a question: Have you had any formal education in logic?

I have a follow-up question if the answer is in the affirmative.

I am at work, so can't search for it with my cumbersome phone right now, but I'm certain that Jabba has used the term, certified statistician, in reference to himself.

 

[SezMe]

Jabba, I would like to ask a question: Have you had any formal education in logic?

I have a follow-up question if the answer is in the affirmative.

Let take a shot at the mil by guessing your second question: Did you get an "F"?

 

[Humots]

I am at work, so can't search for it with my cumbersome phone right now, but I'm certain that Jabba has used the term, certified statistician, in reference to himself.

IIRC, I asked Jabba how he became a certified statistician, and he said that he had a certificate stating that he had passed two courses in statistics in pursuit of a degree (which he did not complete).

I can try to find it and post a link if you want.

 

[John Jones]

IIRC, I asked Jabba how he became a certified statistician, and he said that he had a certificate stating that he had passed two courses in statistics in pursuit of a degree (which he did not complete).

I can try to find it and post a link if you want.

I don't want a derail here, but someone can apparently pursue a statistics certification with zero grasp of logical arguments. /derail

 

[HighRiser]

I don't want a derail here, but someone can apparently pursue a statistics certification with zero grasp of logical arguments. /derail

There certainly are a lot of folks who look on the USAian educational system with some disdain.

 

[Rincewind]

I think I remember him claiming some training in statistics for his job. I might be confusing him with someone else.

Why would the leader of a crime syndicate on Tatooine need statistics skills?

 

[Giordano]

IIRC, I asked Jabba how he became a certified statistician, and he said that he had a certificate stating that he had passed two courses in statistics in pursuit of a degree (which he did not complete).

I can try to find it and post a link if you want.

Just to help out: I also remember this, the claim was in his Reincarnation thread.

As to why the Starwar's Jabba might need statistics? I think that would be crucial for any head of a criminal organization. Otherwise how would you know what are the best criminal areas to invest in, or if your underlings are really paying you all the money that they are probably collecting?

 

[Rincewind]

Just to help out: I also remember this, the claim was in his Reincarnation thread.

As to why the Starwar's Jabba might need statistics? I think that would be crucial for any head of a criminal organization. Otherwise how would you know what are the best criminal areas to invest in, or if your underlings are really paying you all the money that they are probably collecting?

Surely a crime-syndicate leader employs minions to do that?

 

[Humots]

Surely a crime-syndicate leader employs minions to do that?

What if the minions are the underlings?