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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Complex question fallacy.

You were evasive. You stated quite plainly several times you would only allow debate on terms you dictated. Your lack of response on any footing is the further essence of the evasion you were rightly accused of.



His "tactic" is simply trying to discuss the topic with you. You're the one who interposed your foisted rules.

Your tactic here, in addressing that impasse, is the fallacy of circular reasoning. You suggest he should not accuse you of evasion when he suspected you would continue to evade.

Asked and answered.

I think Hank is capable of speaking for himself, don't you?

And I think he is more capable of discussing his attacks on me and his motives.

You just blithely attack anything and everything I say. Your fixation on Robert Harris is getting more than a little wierd.
 
I think Hank is capable of speaking for himself, don't you?

Please stop trying to direct the debate. You're obviously free to ignore any of the posts made in a public forum if you feel they don't apply to you. But you are not free to escape the consequences of such an evasion. If you wish to have a private debate with HSeizant or anyone else, you can do so via private communications.

If you're upset by having your approach put under scrutiny by whatever person deems it worthy of comment, then you can pick any of the other questions I or others have asked and address those. The choice to stop talking about "Robert Harris" is in large part yours.
 
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How does that jive with your demands that your critics lay out and expostulate the prevailing theory, with which you're already quite obviously familiar, when you can get away with simply incorporation by reference of your affirmative case via a single hyperlink?

I'm not sure what you mean by "jive". My presentation is quite comprehensive and lasts for about an hour and fifteen minutes. In it, I cite numerous sources and citations, and demonstrate key points through film segments and photographs as well as possible trajectories for gunshots overlayed on the HSCA surveyor's diagram and overhead photos of Dealey Plaza.

It is pointless for me to just blurt out what I "think" happened. What is important is, what I can prove happened, or in some cases, probably happened. And like a million other presentations, this is by far, the best way to make my case clear.

As for your theory, of course I am familiar with it. What I am not familiar with is the evidence which supports the notion that Oswald acted alone. Please correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think you are either.

Anyway, I am going out for awhile to take care of real world business. This will be a great time to pile on all the personal attacks and name calling that you guys do so well.

Later...
 
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I'm confused. You are pointing to an external source which explains (and presumably supports) your claim. Yet when you demand that your critics affirmatively state and support their belief, you do not seem to accept the incorporation by reference of their external references. HSeizant even explicitly named what those would consist of.

Will you stipulate that, on the basis of your use of external references, the conventional narrative is similarly already incorporated by reference?

HSienzant, Jay.

Thanks,

Hank
 
Robert, here is the conclusion of your article on the polygraph examination.

Although the panel stopped short of labeling Herndon the liar he obviously was, it is clear that Ruby's response to his critical denial, evoked:

1. A rapid increase in blood pressure.

2. A subconscious effort by Ruby to suppress his breathing.

3. The highest GSR (galvanic skin response) measured during that questioning session.

Needless to say, all three of those reactions were symptomatic of deliberate deception. Yet, Herndon testified to a clueless Warren Commission, that he had no problem at all, interpreting Ruby's chart to mean that there was

"..no area of deception present with regard to his response to the relevant questions during the polygraph examination.".

Of course, that was a flagrant lie.

I will remind you of two statements you have made in this forum. The first is that you admit you are not qualified as a polygraph examiner. The second is that you admit you have not seen the raw data from the polygraph test in question.

You attempt to rescue the admission of your lack of credentials by assuring us that you rely upon the HSCA report, which you cite. We can read for ourselves that the report in question was authored by people whom we stipulate are such experts. However you reach an overall different conclusion than they regarding Herndon. In your analysis, Herndon was "obviously" lying, yet the panel of experts upon whom you rely as experts do not draw that conclusion. Please explain upon what foundation you dispute the judgment of your own experts on the important point in your essay.

You then allude to three biometric measurements: blood pressure, galvanic skin response, and breathing. Since you admit not having seen the raw data, please expand upon the nature of the data you are looking at when you refer to these measurements, and how you are able to make a proper quantitative assessment of them. By "proper" I mean such as would support your judgment below.

Your judgment regarding those measurements is this: "Needless to say, all three of those reactions were symptomatic of deliberate deception." Isn't this exactly the sort of judgment that requires a qualified interpreter of the raw data to make? You concede such a qualification exists and you concede you do not have it. Hence your lay opinion of what that raw data indicates is not in any way evidence.

You conclude, that the examiner's report was "a flagrant lie." This is your explanation for why the results you allude to are interpreted by an expert to disagree with your layman's supposition. But that disagreement can also be explained by your lack of appropriate knowledge, experience, and qualification. Please justify why you insist that the proper explanation is that Herndon was lying, and please reconcile why the very source you cite in support of your claims denies that explanation.
 
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FWIW, I also happen to be a lifelong atheist, whose heroes are people like Dawkins, Harris, Sagon, etc. As such, I am a huge fan of reason and empirical evidence.

I have spent countless hours on Youtube, listening to lectures and discussion by Dawkins, Harris, Hitch, Krauss, DeGrasse, Sagon and the mindbogglingly sexy and intelligent, Cristina Rad.

I have (re)watched the entire, original Cosmo series as well as the new one. I also learned some very useful procedures about how to upgrade and repair my Macs.

And I have been entertained by Garfunkel and Oates, Wierd Al, and a lot of cats, and I've learned all kinds of guitar tricks from some of the best musicians on the planet.

Do you also refuse to watch lectures by Dawkins, Sagon, Krauss, Tyson and numerous other brilliant minds? Do you also refuse to watch science based documentaries or the best in classical and jazz music?


For the billionth time, his name was Sagan. Carl Sagan. Not Sagon. I've pointed this out to you a few times now. It's a minor, harmless error, I grant you, but if you are incapable of recognizing something as trivial and uncontroversial as the misspelling of the name of a man you claim to be one of your heroes, what hope do you have of recognizing a much larger error? An error to which you have devoted so much time and passion? Why on Earth would anyone here want to debate someone who is incapable of knowing when he's wrong?

But enough of that. In the interests of keeping things friendly, let's have a song from Wierd Weird Al (I'm a fan, too!):):

 
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I'm not sure what you mean by "jive".

I mean "to be in general accordance with." Specifically I mean an accordance between standards of reference and production. The sources HSienzant alluded to are also similarly documented and easily available. Why can he (and the rest of us) simply refer to them as easily as you refer to external materials? Why are only your critics obliged to a laborious production requirement?

As for your theory, of course I am familiar with it. What I am not familiar with is the evidence which supports the notion that Oswald acted alone.

We covered that the first day.

You phrase the proposition as, "the notion that Oswald acted alone," and you demand specific evidence to affirm that proposition. The notion itself is, by nature, a negative proposition. I can phrase it equivalently as "no other person but Oswald fired at Kennedy that day," which renders it in more acceptable philosophical form. Now keep in mind that my contraposition of "fired at Kennedy" and "acted alone" are not strictly diametrical. I do this because I take you to mean "the notion that Oswald acted alone [in shooting at Kennedy]." We have alluded to other ways in which Oswald might have had outside assistance, but I presume you're not trying to invoke those on the present point.

When we understand the normalized proposition to be "no other person but Oswald fired at Kennedy that day," we recognize it as a negative proposition and we impose the burden of proof accordingly. As you may be aware, imposing the burden of proof upon a negative proposition does not result in a testable system. Accordingly the burden of proof must then go to the converse -- to anyone who asserts that some other person (named or otherwise) acted along with Oswald as a shooter. That's how the testability issue is resolved. Only affirmative propositions can do anything with a burden of proof; a negative proposition can at best only point at the continued absence of evidence for any alternative.

You have assiduously interpreted this naturally-arising condition somehow as an admission on the part of your critics that there is no evidence in favor of their belief, that they have abrogated a burden of proof, or that they cannot prove their case. A vast amount of writing has occurred in the legal, mathematical, and philosophical arenas regarding presumptive reasoning, null hypothesization, and testability. Your interpretation stands starkly in contrast to that body of work. Practically any introductory textbook on philosophy will provide you a suitable foundation, so I urge you to select one that appeals to you and study it.

Let's return to the notion of justification for a negative proposition. Such support, as it exists, is to be found (as I wrote above) in "the continued absence of evidence for any alternative." And that is exactly how it was phrased on your first day. Why do people believe that Oswald was the only shooter? Because of the ongoing lack of credible and sufficient evidence for any alternative, named or unnamed. Your insistence that "support" or justification for the null hypothesis, the negative proposition, should exist as an explicit body of affirmation is philosophically absurd. What body of evidence that I can point to proves that there is no invisible elf living in my backyard?

Such argumentation would often be subject to caveats arising under arguments from silence, viz.,"If your position is based upon the absence of evidence, then it is not evidence of absence." If the landscape of evidence is sparse, it can be construed as likely that new evidence may indeed challenge the null hypothesis and provide evidence of presence. But new evidence must actually be presented. Otherwise the null holds. In any case, skeptics who express the null hold it only presumptively, not as a matter of assertion. That tenet accepts the effect of eventual shifts in the evidence while not requiring any response to premature or speculative propositions. "My position is indeed based on the absence of evidence; as such I do not assert absence, but merely note it parsimoniously explains the evidence as it presently stands."

But in the case of Kennedy's assassination it would be hard to argue that the landscape of evidence is anything well-forested. The more study that occurs, and the less directed and coherent those alternative conclusions become, the more likely it is that the ongoing lack of credible evidence for any alternative or additional perpetrator accurately represents the true picture of the evidence both as it presently stands and as it is likely to appear from now on. Hence the more justified the skeptics are in accepting that divergence of alternatives as a suitable justification for a belief.

You asked what people believed. You were given expressions of belief, which you seem to have mischaracterized as concluded assertions. Belief is mutable. But it doesn't change with every wind of doctrine. Based as it is upon a long-standing consilience of proof for one particular outcome, it possesses some degree of inertia. But a finite degree, because in contrast to the consilience is the ever-present acknowledgement that it is a null hypothesis in the philosophical sense, and an argument from silence in the empirical sense.

The responsibility to overcome that inertia rests with any person who suggests a direction in which the belief should move. And it's his responsibility to provide enough evidentiary force to overcome that inertia. Questioning why there is any inertia at all, or complaining that unseating a belief is too hard, simply doesn't rise to the level of critical attention. Nor do efforts that sidestep the application of sheer evidentiary force. No rhetorical legerdemain or emotional conjuring has any effect upon that inertia. You were warned about those smoke and mirrors when you first arrived, yet proceeded to wave the wand anyway.

If you cannot muster sufficient affirmative force, belief slides back into its erstwhile detent. And this is proper. When one has examined the picture of evidence as it presently stands, and upon that evidence arrives at a belief regarding it, he does not need to repeat that exercise anew every time his belief is tickled by some vaunted alternative. If it is insubstantial, his previous exercise reasserts itself.

Inertia does not relieve the critic of all responsibility in argumentation. In fact, the expression of that inertia is the treatment of the proponent's affirmative case by means of critical analysis. Inertia without that intellectual process is simply entrenchment. But just because some people may be entrenched doesn't show that all who exhibit inertia are. When people are giving you reasons for doubting your affirmation, and you ignore those reasons, the explanation for the inertia is not entrenchment.

Treatment of the proponent's affirmative case does not dictate an affirmative counter-case. Treatment (i.e., refutation and rebuttal) most often takes the form of evaluating the strength of the proponent's affirmation, identifying structural errors in logic and, where appropriate, deficiency in submitted evidence. Hence repeated efforts to shift the burden of proof or to demand only affirmative rebuttals denies a great deal of what the intellectual process is designed to accomplish.

On the first day we told you that the basis for our belief that no one besides Oswald shot at Kennedy was the lack of evidence for any person but Oswald, and the ongoing failure to uncover any. Now perhaps it is clearer how that works. You identified observations you felt weren't explained adequately by the Oswald-alone hypothesis and asserted that it was explained more appropriately by the affirmation that another person besides Oswald was firing at the President's motorcade. You are now on the hook to show how that explanation best answers all the data, not just the bit you find puzzling. You have been given a list of reasons why your explanation is unconvincing. And rather than improve upon it, you've employed an endless stream of rhetorical game-playing to avoid any further meaningful test of your explanation.

This will be a great time to pile on all the personal attacks and name calling that you guys do so well.

Ad hominem, and a renewed effort to make the debate about "Robert Harris."
 
Please do not misrepresent my analysis. First, I only said that Oswald was "probably" a shooter.

Of course you did ! Oswald is the only person towards whom the evidence points. That, you see, is why we conclude that he's the only shooter. He had the motivation, the tools, the location, and the opportunity, plus what was found on the site implicates him. There is really no reason to posit any other involvement.

And second, my arguments about the limo passengers' reactions are very specific. Do you dispute my assertion that 5 people in the limo began to duck or spin around, in the same 1/6th of a second that Zapruder exhibited startle reactions as Alvarez claimed?

I dispute that you've demonstrated this, yes.

I did not write 78 posts on that.

You know what they say about people who don't understand figures of speech, right ?

I'm sorry that you are so obsessed with me

You have made this about yourself. If you want to discuss the assassination, stop making it about yourself. You can start by ditching your attempts to impose your own rules of debate, and then by not assuming that people who disagree with you are dishonest or wrong by the simple virtue of disagreeing with you.
 
...a man you claim to be one of your heroes, what hope do you have of recognizing a much larger error?

What's even worse is that the principles I outlined above are the topic of Sagan's Demon-Haunted World and are essentially abstracted from it. I wonder how someone who claims Sagan as his hero is so ignorant and/or dismissive of the principles the author advocates.
 
I already did that - twice, if memory serves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE

I think you'll find that most people here despise arguments by video. They're usually mostly rhetoric with little actual content, which is why papers are prefered.

So, which of those philosophers granted you the right to make a rule that alleviates you from defending your personal theory?

You're doing it again: assuming that people debating your alternative theory have the same burden as you do. It's a rule in the sense that everyone here will observe it. That you don't wish to do so is irrelevant: every poster in this thread will assume that _you_ have burden, because the "official" theory is already well-established in our view. Therefore YOU must convince US that your theory is better. That's how rules work.

Do you also refuse to watch lectures by Dawkins, Sagon, Krauss, Tyson and numerous other brilliant minds?

No, but we expect more than they say-so during said lecture before we integrate their claims.
 
I think you'll find that most people here despise arguments by video. They're usually mostly rhetoric with little actual content, which is why papers are prefered.

I agree with this assessment, both of the shortcomings of the video format and the characterization of its acceptance at ISF. "Here, go watch this 90-minute video," tends to come off as evasive.

But we do need to afford some slack here. Harris has been pressed to provide a comprehensive (and hopefully documented) statement of his theory. If he has prepared such a thing in advance, he has every right to direct us to it. While I lament with you that it's in a tedious, awkward, and generally unscholarly medium, it is reasonable to suppose that he considers it a satisfaction of the request.

People ask me questions all the time about the Apollo missions. I have collected my answers, as well as supporting arguments, into a web site to which I refer people. It's not because I'm lazy. It's because I've produced this resource exactly for the purpose of presenting a case and answering common questions once for all. Granted, a web site is sectional and searchable while a video is not, but there we stand. Advance preparation of a case is not a bad thing.

That's how rules work.

I would even hesitate to use "rule" because it allows Harris to equate the natural properties of intellectual debate with the contrived rules that apply to this forum and variously to other forums. One can be set aside by fiat; the other cannot. If you don't like the rules at ISF governing conduct, you can go elsewhere and work under different rules. Those rules are conditions imposed by the owner of a resource in exchange for your use of them. They are fiat restrictions with no more justification than, "Because I said so."

The philosophical properties of intellectual discourse, such as burden of proof, are innate properties we have discovered via contemplation and experience. We know not to place the burden of proof upon a negative proposition not because some ancient Greek in flowing robes said not to do that, but because experience shows the errors that arise when we do, and contemplation helps us discover why the errors arise. Hence we apply them as rules because we have learned as a species, "If we think this certain way, the outcome is unreliable and possibly unpleasant.

No, but we expect more than they say-so during said lecture before we integrate their claims.

Not only that, but the implicit inclusion of himself in company with noted skeptics suggests he regards himself as equal in stature. You don't distinguish yourself by naming yourself among illustrious company, but by doing great things. If you want to be seen as a peer of Galileo, you have to do the kinds of things Galileo did. And you have to be able to prove you're right.
 
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Why do JFK CT'ers insist on letting JFK's actual murderer off the hook? How dare they defend Lee Harvey Oswald - even Oswald's own flesh-and-blood brother knows he did it, and believes he did it alone.

It is morally revolting to the memory of the slain President and his family.
 
You refused to debate on a level playing field, but continued to post accusations that I was evasive, knowing that at that time, I would not respond.

"Level playing field" is simply your begging the question once more.

"Posting accusations that I was evasive" is, I guess, your way of acknowledging that I have posted some of the same points twice, and you haven't deigned to respond to either of the postings.

Your failure to respond is because of your own self-imposed limitations. You're complaining that my pointing out your errors is somehow unfair because you're running away from the debate (all the while finding time to respond on how unfair all this is)? Do you understand how funny your arguments are? How is your self-imposed rules my problem?


Perhaps you have a better name for that kind of tactic.

It's called avoidance. You're trying to make the discussion about why you're being treated unfairly instead of discussing the evidence of the JFK assassination as I did.


And perhaps you would also explain why you would deny that the terms I suggested do not constitute an honest debate?

1) Jay already gave you a list -- "Advantage - Robert Harris" -- Remember?

2) You're trying to shift the burden of proof. You proposed a series of rules. Why don't you establish these rules are fair and equitable to both sides instead of asking me to show they don't constitute a fair and equitable set of rules for everyone involved?

3) You're trying to put words in my mouth. I didn't deny or affirm anything about your rules of engagement, other than under the terms you suggest, you won't be debating anyone here.

4) You keep claiming you're here to talk about the JFK assassination, but you keep talking about your actions, your rules, and avoiding any responses to questions about the JFK assassination. Case in point -- your response here. You could have responded to the points I made about any of the evidence in this case. You chose instead to talk about Roberts Rules of Engagement and how unfair this forum is.

Hank
 
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I think Hank is capable of speaking for himself, don't you?

Now Robert is trying to limit the responses once more. This is not a person-to-person private chat room, Robert. Jay Utah is perfectly fine to offer his opinion here.



And I think he is more capable of discussing his attacks on me and his motives.

My *attacks on you*?? Please, by all means, report what I said that you so offensive. In the meantime, I recall pointing our some contrary evidence and pointing out your rules of engagement supposedly limit you from responding to my points, but don't prevent me from responding to your posts. Somehow, however, even though you said you wouldn't without an agreement, you keep responding to me.



You just blithely attack anything and everything I say. Your fixation on Robert Harris is getting more than a little wierd.

I think Jay is trying to point out the flaws in your argument(s). As am I. It's not our fault there are so many, nor is our fault you keep repeating them.

Hank
 
"Level playing field" is simply your begging the question once more.

Not unless you can demonstrate that my conditions did not constitute a level playing field. Care to give that a try?

"Posting accusations that I was evasive" is, I guess, your way of acknowledging that I have posted some of the same points twice, and you haven't deigned to respond to either of the postings.

You knew very well that I was not debating with anyone then, who insisted on the phony "rules", imposed by a handful of nutters. So you had no business complaining that I "evaded" you.

Your failure to respond is because of your own self-imposed limitations.

"limitations"??

Why are your demands the law of the land, while mine are only "limitations"?

You refused to debate on my conditions which were infinitely more appropriate than yours and I refused to debate under yours.

And please do not accuse me of "begging the question" until you explain why your rules are at least equal to mine? Were you thinking it's fairer to remove your obligation to support your own favorite theory?

You're complaining that my pointing out your errors

And now, you really are begging the question, since you could never demonstrate to save your life, that my statements were errors.

is somehow unfair because you're running away from the debate

BS!! I challenged you repeatedly to debate and you dodged me every time.

(all the while finding time to respond on how unfair all this is)?

Ok, let's debate under the condition that we presume conspiracy to be a given.

Is that OK with you? Or would you complain about "how unfair all this is"?

Do you understand how funny your arguments are?

If that were true, you would have accepted my challenge to debate.

How is your self-imposed rules my problem?

Not so well. Now I know how Diogenes felt.

I deleted the ad hominem crap, or more accurately, the rest of the ad hominem crap.
 
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