South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Garrette]

That's not the issue: your view, my view. What is in question is the official State view, which is what determines policy on its official public display.

What you are writing about decides whether individuals display it or not. That is not in question in this discussion.

They are both being discussed. I chose to address this side of it in that post. I am in general agreement with the idea of removing such flags from government buildings.

 

[Garrette]

And why did their parents fly it?

Some, for the same reasons their children chose to fly it: association not with hate but with heritage. Depends how far back in the generations you go.

Right. And we come back to ignorance.

You missed this part of what I said:

"As adults, most can see that the connotation is there, but rather than seeing it as an either/or, they see it as a your-view/my-view, each buttressed by personal experience."

 

[pgwenthold]

Some, for the same reasons their children chose to fly it: association not with hate but with heritage. Depends how far back in the generations you go.

But in the end, that "heritage," what it all comes back to, is the racist message sent by whatever ancestor.

"It's the flag my parents flew."
"Why did you parents fly it?"
"?????"

Ultimately, the answer very often come back to, "Because they were racist", whether anyone admits it or not.

Why was the flag flying at the SC state capital? Now, everyone says, "But it is tradition! That's been there for as along as I know!!!" And why was it there? Segregation now, segregation forever.

That those people aren't aware of that reason is their ignorance, and doesn't make the flag any more noble.

You missed this part of what I said:

"As adults, most can see that the connotation is there, but rather than seeing it as an either/or, they see it as a your-view/my-view, each buttressed by personal experience."

That doesn't make them not ignorant.

 

[paulhutch]

From the CNN poll page:

Among African-Americans, 72% see the Confederate flag as a symbol of racism, just 25% of whites agree. In the South, the racial divide is even broader. While 75% of Southern whites describe the flag as a symbol of pride and 18% call it a symbol of racism, those figures are almost exactly reversed among Southern African-Americans, with just 11% seeing it as a sign of pride and 75% viewing it as a symbol of racism.

So yes a majority of whites don't see the flag as a symbol of racism but a large majority of African-Americans do see it as a symbol of racism. Probably get similar results if you asked about black face minstrel shows, old movie stereotypes and many other things. Do whites really need to stick to their guns on this issue when it clearly is very offensive to the people who had slave ancestors.

 

[Garrette]

But in the end, that "heritage," what it all comes back to, is the racist message sent by whatever ancestor.

"It's the flag my parents flew."
"Why did you parents fly it?"
"?????"

Ultimately, the answer very often come back to, "Because they were racist", whether anyone admits it or not.

I am not questioning that there was racism at its roots. I am questioning the implicit claim that racism at the roots must carry over to racism in the distant seedlings.

Why was the flag flying at the SC state capital? Now, everyone says, "But it is tradition! That's been there for as along as I know!!!" And why was it there? Segregation now, segregation forever.

No doubt, and even if doubt, the roots are sufficient to justify not flying it over the Capitol.

That those people aren't aware of that reason is their ignorance, and doesn't make the flag any more noble.

I have not claimed the flag is noble nor that the ones of whom I speak claim that it is noble. I have claimed, and I stand by it, that there are those for whom it legitimately does not represent the things you claim, regardless if it was explicitly created to represent exactly that.

That doesn't make them not ignorant.

Yes, it explicitly does; they merely separate the meaning of the flag to them from the meaning of the flag to others.

 

[DavidJames]

From the CNN poll page:



So yes a majority of whites don't see the flag as a symbol of racism but a large majority of African-Americans do see it as a symbol of racism. Probably get similar results if you asked about black face minstrel shows, old movie stereotypes and many other things. Do whites really need to stick to their guns on this issue when it clearly is very offensive to the people who had slave ancestors.

I wonder what's worse. Someone who flys the flag because they are a racist or someone who says they aren't but still fly the flag knowing to many that's what it represents.

 

[Garrette]

I wonder what's worse. Someone who flys the flag because they are a racist or someone who says they aren't but still fly the flag knowing to many that's what it represents.

And that's a legitimate question, but it is not the same as the general claim, i.e., that all those who fly it are either racists or culpably ignorant of the flag's racist history.

 

[Polaris]

And that's a legitimate question, but it is not the same as the general claim, i.e., that all those who fly it are either racists or culpably ignorant of the flag's racist history.

I think at this point, with the very spotlit controversy, those who fly the flag and remain ignorant of what it stands for are doing so on purpose.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

I think there's a more generic pride in being from the South, one that can include a revulsion for racism and slavery. And that pride can be expressed with a flag.

Sure, but... why that flag? It's history is not exactly unknown. It'd be similar to some Germans flying the Nazi flag and claiming "German pride" as their reason. They may be sincere in their claim, but that just exposes the extreme ignorance or tone deafness of the person flying the flag.

 

[pgwenthold]

I am not questioning that there was racism at its roots. I am questioning the implicit claim that racism at the roots must carry over to racism in the distant seedlings.

I never said that. I said it's ignorance.

 

[Myron Proudfoot]

My overall impression can likely be gleaned by watching "Gone With The Wind" - a work of fiction but I think it tried to portray the feelings and motivations of many of the ordinary people fighting for the Confederacy.

more accurately, it's how the post-Civil War generations WANTED to remember it.

 

[pgwenthold]

From the CNN poll page:



So yes a majority of whites don't see the flag as a symbol of racism but a large majority of African-Americans do see it as a symbol of racism. Probably get similar results if you asked about black face minstrel shows, old movie stereotypes and many other things. Do whites really need to stick to their guns on this issue when it clearly is very offensive to the people who had slave ancestors.

There is a whole-nother thread that I could do on this, but it's something that I am always wondering about - what does it tell you when there is an issue that highly polarized along racial lines?

That there is clearly a racial bias being exhibited is not in question, it's obvious. White people think one thing, black people think another. Clearly, race (or some strongly correlating factor) is influencing how people view the confederate flag.

And so the question is, who's the one with the racial bias? Whomever we are, we always assert that WE are the objective ones, and the other group is just saying that because they are X. What has started to give me pause is, how can I say that I am not the biased one? The other group is just as adamant that they are the objective ones and my view is skewed because of my race.

About 20 years ago, I realized that, as much as I would like to think it, I can't put myself in that other perspective and say I would still feel the same way. I have no idea if I would or not. Therefore, I can't honestly say that I am not biased because of my race.

 

[pgwenthold]

I think at this point, with the very spotlit controversy, those who fly the flag and remain ignorant of what it stands for are doing so on purpose.

Of course, they really aren't ignorant. That's why they do things like make the flag with the words "Heritage not hate" already written on them. Because they know how lots of people view the flag, and so they have to try to deny that it applies to them.

So yes, they are doing it on purpose. They know people view it as a symbol of hate, but it's SO important to them to fly it anyway.

 

[Travis]

I don't get notions of "heritage" or "tradition". They seem like stupid excuses to not change things that ought to be.

For example my grandparents had these horrible ceramic figurines of black children eating watermelons. They were for some reason handed down to me. Did I cherish them because they were a link to my ancestors? Hell no I destroyed them with a hammer.

Screw those ridiculous notions.

 

[Upchurch]

more accurately, it's how the post-Civil War generations WANTED to remember it.

Again, I recommend this article:

Why do people believe myths about the Confederacy? Because our textbooks and monuments are wrong.

 

[wareyin]

And from another poll: "White supporters of the Confederate battle emblem are distinguished not by their knowledge of Southern history but rather their ignorance of it."

 

[luchog]

What's pretty clear to me is that in your heart of hearts you hold yourself as being smarter than the "ignorant" 57% you disagree with. That's the kind of elitism that I do not find flattering.

s/smarter/better educated and informed

Which is not a difficult thing to be in this day and age; given the overall anti-intellectualism of American culture.

 

[luchog]

I think at this point, with the very spotlit controversy, those who fly the flag and remain ignorant of what it stands for are doing so on purpose.

Very much on purpose

I think it's very much "bulletproof ignorance" in many cases. I've had multiple arguments with people who refuse to acknowledge the ongoing racist heritage of the symbol, even when confronted with irrefutable evidence of it. They are deliberately discounting anything that is not a "states' rights" or "heritage" sound bite. At best, they minimize the issue of racism with a mealy-mouth dismissal, "Well, that may be what it stood for then, but that's not what it stands for now". Except that it clearly does.

And, as others here have so ably pointed out, they are unable to clearly explain what the "states' rights" or "heritage" is. And stick to their guns even when actual historical documentation is brought in that conclusively demonstrates that the "states' rights" and "heritage" are slavery and racism, respectively. That fact is undeniable by any rational person with even a modicum of education in the history of the Civil War and the Civil Rights Movement.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Under the heading of "making hay while the sun shines"...

Seen this morning driving through McCaysville, GA:

Hard to see, but all those t-shirts are Confederate flag-themed.

 

[mgidm86]

And that's a legitimate question, but it is not the same as the general claim, i.e., that all those who fly it are either racists or culpably ignorant of the flag's racist history.

Perhaps discouraging them from wearing the flag is a bad idea - at least it's easier to identify them.