South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[Walter Ego]

And it is of course a coincidence, but Mt. Zion AME church burns in Greeleyville....

Apparently, yes.

Fire at South Carolina black church wasn't arson

GREELEYVILLE, S.C. — A fire that destroyed a black church that 20 years ago was a target of the Ku Klux Klan was not the work of an arsonist, a federal law enforcement official said Wednesday.

This one was most likely lightning. Severe thunderstorms passed over the area before the fire.

 

[pgwenthold]

All the while ignoring that we evolved to be a social species and we actually live in societies. And of course, ignore the science of what makes social species so effective.

When I was young (college/grad school) I used to consider myself libertarian. But that changed when I realized I cared about others and not just myself.

 

[Upchurch]

Some just don't seem to get it. We can't just limit it in this "one case" because if we allow this to happen then any unpopular speech can also be limited. It's not about whether we agree or disagree with the display of the confederate flag it's about whether we agree with free speech being limited to include only popular speech.

In fact, you are the one who does not get it. No one's free speech has been limited, not even the unpopular speech:

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan’s Pelham, North Carolina, chapter have reserved the Statehouse Grounds in South Carolina for a rally next month.

James Spears, the Great Titan of the chapter, said the group would be rallying to protest “the Confederate flag being took down for all the wrong reasons.”

“It’s part of white people’s culture,” he added.

Brian Gaines, who runs the South Carolina Budget and Control Board, which oversees reservations, confirmed the scheduling in an email to POLITICO Monday. He added that the group submitted the request on June 23 and, because his office allows any group, regardless of ideology, to reserve the grounds on a first-come, first-serve basis, the KKK will be able to hold its rally.

To sum up: The Confederate Battle Flag is not a symbol of racism. It is a symbol of Southern culture which, apparently, is white people's culture. But not racism. No siree.

 

[Upchurch]

Another good article:

Why do people believe myths about the Confederacy? Because our textbooks and monuments are wrong.

Perhaps most perniciously, neo-Confederates now claim that the South seceded for states’ rights. When each state left the Union, its leaders made clear that they were seceding because they were for slavery and against states’ rights. In its “Declaration Of The Causes Which Impel The State Of Texas To Secede From The Federal Union,” for example, the secession convention of Texas listed the states that had offended them: Maine, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, New York, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Wisconsin, Michigan and Iowa. These states had in fact exercised states’ rights by passing laws that interfered with the federal government’s attempts to enforce the Fugitive Slave Act. Some also no longer let slaveowners “transit” through their states with their slaves. “States’ rights” were what Texas was seceding against. Texas also made clear what it was seceding for: white supremacy.

We hold as undeniable truths that the governments of the various States, and of the confederacy itself, were established exclusively by the white race, for themselves and their posterity; that the African race had no agency in their establishment; that they were rightfully held and regarded as an inferior and dependent race, and in that condition only could their existence in this country be rendered beneficial or tolerable.​

(emphasis in the original)

 

[Meadmaker]

My question is - is this really the most pressing campaign du jour?

I mean really, the kid was a psycotic nut who killed in the name of a flag that wasnt even the original confederate flag. Why were there no calls to have the flag taken down before this incident?

I feel it's a sanctimonious campaign without addressing the underlying issues of racism

My position is a variant on that. The flag at the monument in front of the SC statehouse has a long history, and a lot of people have tried to get rid of it for a long time. Ever since it went up, in fact. An awfully lot of people protested then as well. I wouldn't say that it is the most pressing campaign du jour, but it's a revival of an existing campaign, and it's kind of understandable why the murders would bring it into focus again.

Where I think it goes all sanctimonious is when it extends far beyond that flag flown on state grounds. When people start complaining about flags carved into marble monuments to war dead, and removing key chains from gift shops, I think it gets a bit sanctimonious.

 

[Foolmewunz]

My position is a variant on that. The flag at the monument in front of the SC statehouse has a long history, and a lot of people have tried to get rid of it for a long time. Ever since it went up, in fact. An awfully lot of people protested then as well. I wouldn't say that it is the most pressing campaign du jour, but it's a revival of an existing campaign, and it's kind of understandable why the murders would bring it into focus again.

Where I think it goes all sanctimonious is when it extends far beyond that flag flown on state grounds. When people start complaining about flags carved into marble monuments to war dead, and removing key chains from gift shops, I think it gets a bit sanctimonious.

Sanctimony? I disagree. Opportunism? Sure! This is a battle that's been fought for the past five (going on six) decades, not just in South Carolina but throughout the former Confederate states and even in other parts of the country. With public opinion finally shifting to the "anti" faction, there are going to be some old arguments re-opened and some (of the progressive ilk) are going to try to drag the citizenry of a few states, kicking and screaming if they insist, into the late 20th, if not 21st century.

As to key chains and belt buckles? I'm joining EG3000. Not with my money, thank you. Federal/National parks and monuments? They should not be offering what has become a symbol and rallying point for bigotry for sale.

Freedom of speech? Say, what? Big bad brave revisionists can fly their flags proudly. They can buy them. They can draw them. They can carry them in demonstrations. And I'll support them doing so.

But the rest of us can exercise our similarly valid freedom of speech/expression/association and not just speak out against them, but put pressure on the institutions we support (our own governments, retirement funds, etc...) to cease doing business with those states that believe that racists' rights are more significant than the rights of their own states' citizens to peaceful enjoyment of life in their communities. Ever wonder why there are no post-season playoff NCAA games, in any sport, in South Carolina and Mississippi? That flag! Have an organization planning a convention? Don't even think of getting them to pick Charleston. Oh, sure, the Daughters of the Confederacy,.... but don't plan anything major like the Shriners, the AMA, the Knights of Columbus, etc... Not if I've got a vote. And if 3M or Pepsi or GE want to move their corporate offices? Not with the freedom of speech of the progressive shareholders. Those kinds of things lead to boycotts of products, and they're not going to take the chance of having to deal with that.

It's only the tyranny of the populist minority that has these emblems flown on monuments and state-owned property, anyway. Anyone recall Franklin's comment about democracy and wolves and a sheep? The fack that the state legislature and the good citizens of any of those states would vote to still recognize that flag as being important in their state(s) is a slap in the face (if not a swift kick to the 'nads) to the black population. "Gee, sorry if it brings up old wounds, Rashad, but majority rules, ya know!"

A footnote I learned last week reading about this issue in its historical perspective. Back in the '30s, when Ole Miss was choosing their mascot, Colonel Reb(universally hated by liberal southerners for over 75 years), the runner up in a close vote was for a mascot/symbol called "Old Massa". Yeah, "massa", that "massa" - the affectionate honorific (mythologically speaking) that slaves had for their owners and overseers!

 

[Hercules Rockefeller]

This thread reminds me of Clerks II.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

CNN pushed this to my iPad this morning:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/

In part:

"American public opinion on the Confederate flag remains about where it was 15 years ago, with most describing the flag as a symbol of Southern pride more than one of racism, according to a new CNN/ORC poll. And questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.

The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education."

In any case, 57% is a significant number. Of course, if you're in the 43% who disagree, it's easy to paint that 57% as racist, inbred yahoos that just don't know any better, while you're in the "enlightened minority".

BTW, I'm in the 57%. I've never flown the Confederate flag, being born and raised a Jewish liberal Yankee. But here in GA, I see it flown a lot, while at the same time rarely hearing racist views put forth by anyone.

 

[Cl1mh4224rd]

CNN pushed this to my iPad this morning:

http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/02/politics/confederate-flag-poll-racism-southern-pride/

In part:

"American public opinion on the Confederate flag remains about where it was 15 years ago, with most describing the flag as a symbol of Southern pride more than one of racism, according to a new CNN/ORC poll. And questions about how far to go to remove references to the Confederacy from public life prompt broad racial divides.

The poll shows that 57% of Americans see the flag more as a symbol of Southern pride than as a symbol of racism, about the same as in 2000 when 59% said they viewed it as a symbol of pride. Opinions of the flag are sharply divided by race, and among whites, views are split by education."

In any case, 57% is a significant number. Of course, if you're in the 43% who disagree, it's easy to paint that 57% as racist, inbred yahoos that just don't know any better, while you're in the "enlightened minority".

Pride in what, though? The defining characteristics of "the South", as represented by that flag, are slavery and secession.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

Pride in what, though? The defining characteristics of "the South", as represented by that flag, are slavery and secession.

That's your viewpoint, and one shared by about 43% of Americans.

I think there's a more generic pride in being from the South, one that can include a revulsion for racism and slavery. And that pride can be expressed with a flag.

I think there's a certain elitism at work, or at least a narrowmindedness. A person views the confederate flag and sees racist hate, and assumes it means that for everyone.

Per the survey, at least, it does not.

 

[pgwenthold]

That's your viewpoint, and one shared by about 43% of Americans.

I think there's a more generic pride in being from the South, one that can include a revulsion for racism and slavery. And that pride can be expressed with a flag..

I hear that, but then again, when asked, no one has ever given a real answer. The best that anyone can come up with is "there ancestors fought in the civil war" and "they talk with an accent."

I asked this years ago, when I saw the confederate flag with "Heritage not hate" written on it. What is the heritage that the confederate flag represents?

Now, 5/9 people think it represents some heritage pride, but no one participating here could come up with anything legitimate. You hear random comments about "States' rights" and "standing up to the invading army" which are extra-reality, and that's about it.

I won't say they are all racist, but ignorant? Yeah, that's pretty clear.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I hear that, but then again, when asked, no one has ever given a real answer. The best that anyone can come up with is "there ancestors fought in the civil war" and "they talk with an accent."

Not being a southerner, except by current residence, hard for me to say.

My overall impression can likely be gleaned by watching "Gone With The Wind" - a work of fiction but I think it tried to portray the feelings and motivations of many of the ordinary people fighting for the Confederacy.

I won't say they are all racist, but ignorant? Yeah, that's pretty clear.

What's pretty clear to me is that in your heart of hearts you hold yourself as being smarter than the "ignorant" 57% you disagree with. That's the kind of elitism that I do not find flattering.

 

[thaiboxerken]

Per the survey, at least, it does not.

The popular opinion isn't always right, but you knew that.

 

[thaiboxerken]

What's pretty clear to me is that in your heart of hearts you hold yourself as being smarter than the "ignorant" 57% you disagree with. That's the kind of elitism that I do not find flattering.

I believe it is the morons that tend to call smart people elitist. It is pretty sad that intelligence and education is seen as a failure and not a virtue by many of the right wing.

 

[Garrette]

I hear that, but then again, when asked, no one has ever given a real answer. The best that anyone can come up with is "there ancestors fought in the civil war" and "they talk with an accent."

I asked this years ago, when I saw the confederate flag with "Heritage not hate" written on it. What is the heritage that the confederate flag represents?

Now, 5/9 people think it represents some heritage pride, but no one participating here could come up with anything legitimate. You hear random comments about "States' rights" and "standing up to the invading army" which are extra-reality, and that's about it.

I won't say they are all racist, but ignorant? Yeah, that's pretty clear.

I think it is (in many cases) far less egregious than either disguised racism or overt ignorance, though some form of ignorance may be involved.

My personal experience in the Kentucky part of the south (and surprisingly some of the Indiana part of the south) is that there are groups of adults now who were exposed to the rebel battle flags as children when they knew it only as the flag that their parents flew. They saw no association of it with anything but pride in heritage, and if ever they asked, they answers they received -- regardless if incomplete or incorrect -- were strictly about states' rights and southern nobility and gentility and hospitality. Coupled with the fact that many of the same group of people actually grew up with black friends, they truly were never exposed to any extent the idea that the flag had a negative connotation.

As adults, most can see that the connotation is there, but rather than seeing it as an either/or, they see it as a your-view/my-view, each buttressed by personal experience.

 

[Polaris]

What's pretty clear to me is that in your heart of hearts you hold yourself as being smarter than the "ignorant" 57% you disagree with. That's the kind of elitism that I do not find flattering.

I don't think pgwenthold (I always sound that out in my mind as "pigeonholed"...weird) was using "ignorant" in the vernacular as a synonym for "stupid", but rather its original meaning of simply not knowing something.

Could be wrong.

 

[Craig B]

As adults, most can see that the connotation is there, but rather than seeing it as an either/or, they see it as a your-view/my-view, each buttressed by personal experience.

That's not the issue: your view, my view. What is in question is the official State view, which is what determines policy on its official public display.

What you are writing about decides whether individuals display it or not. That is not in question in this discussion.

 

[Fast Eddie B]

I don't think pgwenthold (I always sound that out in my mind as "pigeonholed"...weird) was using "ignorant" in the vernacular as a synonym for "stupid", but rather its original meaning of simply not knowing something.

Could be wrong.

That's just ignorant!

Could be wrong!

 

[pgwenthold]

I don't think pgwenthold (I always sound that out in my mind as "pigeonholed"...weird) was using "ignorant" in the vernacular as a synonym for "stupid", but rather its original meaning of simply not knowing something.

Of course. Anyone who thinks that the southern states really cared about "states' rights" is lacking knowledge. They are ignorant.

The only "states rights" that they cared about were 1) the right to hold slaves, and 2) the right to secede.

They were all happy to oppose states rights in other cases, as long as it supported 1 and 2 above.

 

[pgwenthold]

I think it is (in many cases) far less egregious than either disguised racism or overt ignorance, though some form of ignorance may be involved.

My personal experience in the Kentucky part of the south (and surprisingly some of the Indiana part of the south) is that there are groups of adults now who were exposed to the rebel battle flags as children when they knew it only as the flag that their parents flew.

And why did their parents fly it?

They saw no association of it with anything but pride in heritage, and if ever they asked, they answers they received -- regardless if incomplete or incorrect -- were strictly about states' rights and southern nobility and gentility and hospitality.

Right. And we come back to ignorance.