Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Didn't I already answer your question?



I don't think he "required" an accomplice, just like a zillion other crimes and terrorist acts which probably could have been pulled off with fewer people.



But 2 or 3 shooters have a better chance of making the kill than 1, wouldn't you agree?


Do you have any evidence of a second shooter? Not your 'these people aren't flinching the way I think they should' but actual corroborated evidence, say ballistic evidence? Saying that something would be easier with 2 or three people doesn't make it so, you need something more to invalidate the entirety of the evidence that points to LHO acting alone.
 
Robert, I have to say I'm still completely underwhelmed by your claim that the car's occupants flinch in a way that suggests they're all reacting to a gunshot. Particularly in your "Kellerman ducks once...Kellarman ducks twice" animation, it really seems quite clear to me that he doesn't duck the first time. Both he and the driver sitting next to him rock forward and back together in synchrony, which only indicates to me that the acceleration of the car changes. The women in the back of the car don't duck either; each rather obviously moves to see what's wrong with her husband.
 
Will all participants please remember to keep their posts civil and polite, and also to refrain from personalising their arguments. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation in this matter.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha
 
I know this is an "international" forum. Is English your first language? Do you understand what this sentence means?

"I try very hard to give people the benefit of the doubt, so I will not call you a liar."

So why are you whining that I called you a "liar"?

I will even go so far as to say that you were not lying when you said that, but in all honesty, it's hard to keep a straight face.
You've been advised by other members to drop your ad hominem attacks and now a moderator has reiterated it. If you have no argument, as seems to be the case, you should probably toddle off to a CT website where they will fall for it.

And why are you continuing to post the false claim that I am "running away" from my beliefs about who was behind this crime??
If you've already given us your alternative coherent hypothesis for who assassinated JFK, please give a link to the post. Otherwise, you continue to run away and I'll have to assume that you aren't telling the truth when you say you aren't.

I repeatedly told you that I would post about that in 1-2 days. Are you THAT desperate to attack me that you have to make up all these phony accusations, which you know are untrue?
I have repeatedly told you to outline your entire coherent alternative hypothesis that explains all of the evidence. Since you've not done that and since you know that my statements are true, again I'll have to assume that you are simply and deliberately telling falsehoods.

Now that you know your just-like-every-other-CTist tactics get short shrift, you may as well post your entire coherent alternative hypothesis for the JFK assassination. Make sure that it explains all of the evidence to the arbitrary standard that you are imposing on the conventional narrative.
 
Even before I posted nothing other than an introductory greeting, you claimed to have me pegged, knowing exactly what I was going to say and all the terrible sins I was going to commit.
I've got you pegged as one of those people who makes claims that they won't support with evidence.

But you must know by now, that NO ONE has ever presented the analyses and conclusions that I have. You should also know that I disagree with almost as much of the CT dogma that you do. I really, really do.
I've heard the suppressed gun claim before; no one including you has supported it.

I ran a forum for several years, and finally closed it down, because it had become infested with absolute idiots....
What forum was that?

4. The total absence of visible startle reactions to the early shots and the apparent fact that one of them seems to have been totally inaudible.
How do you go about making a firearm totally inaudible? I'd like to know. I've got four ATF form 1's for making silencers with plans on the drawing board. I'm always looking for a better way to suppress my rifles.

Let's stick with the facts and evidence....
Got any for me? Can you support the claims you made in #1760? What rifles are 2-3 times louder than a 6.5mm Carcano? Why is it reasonable to assume that a suppressed rifle was used? If it was inaudible, then I think it is a safer bet that no firearm was used.

Ranb
 
Will all participants please remember to keep their posts civil and polite, and also to refrain from personalising their arguments. Thank you for your anticipated cooperation in this matter.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Agatha

Thank you!
 
How do you separate the honest researchers from the scammers, Jay?

The scammers keep trying to shift the burden of proof. I mentioned several other criteria shortly after your first post.

Even before I posted nothing other than an introductory greeting, you claimed to have me pegged, knowing exactly what I was going to say and all the terrible sins I was going to commit.

Which you then went on to commit. I even pointed out in detail when you were committing them while making your case. It's not anyone's fault but yours that your approach is indistinguishable from every other conspiracy theorist's and therefore predictable.

But you must know by now, that NO ONE has ever presented the analyses and conclusions that I have.

You conflate the uniqueness of your narrative with the common methods you use to compose, present, and defend it. Every single conspiracy theorist relies upon the rhetorical tactics I outlined at the start. If I am able to predict how you will present your case, and tick off the items as they appear in your posts, that should give you pause. Instead you complain about being found out.

Conversely every single conspiracy theorist has his own unique narrative. As our resident professional historian will tell you, there are something like nine hundred books published on the subject of the Kennedy assassination, each presenting a different analysis and conclusion. Why do you think so many of them fail to get even a little bit of traction among fellow historians? Why do you think that even among conspiracy theorists the group isn't rallying to your analysis, or any one particular analysis? Can you explain the division in the ranks if all this conspiracy nonsense is supposed to be based on strong evidentiary analysis?

You may have a fondness for your particular "startle reaction" point, but every single other conspiracy theorist has his own little hobby-science niche, every single other conspiracy theorist swears up and down his claims are based on the evidence and a sound scientific approach to it -- and every single other conspiracy theorist comes to a completely different conclusion. We don't have your particular fondness. To the rest of the world you're just one more unique voice in a chorus of unique voices all paradoxically claiming to have properly investigated the evidence and all reaching vastly different verdicts. This is the climate you have to overcome, and you won't do it by your present approach.

The problem with the conspiracist's approach is that it involves running away from the undesirable conclusion, not running toward a conclusion that the evidence parsimoniously desires. When your approach is characterized by running away from something, there are innumerable directions in which you can run. You think that because you have run in a particular direction you can claim as your own, you merit special attention and forbearance.

It's just not good enough to blow all this off, with sweeping generalizations and claims that it's all about subjective opinion. It isn't.

Yes it is. Speculatively attributing some perceived reaction to some desired cause -- even when you have to shoehorn the evidence into it by handwaving about silenced weapons -- is not science. It's not even science just because it has been written about by people who elsewhere did real science on other topics.

You may have expended a great deal of energy formulating and defending your theory here and elsewhere. That doesn't entitle you to a lengthy rebuttal when your theory is found to rest upon a few easily-seen fatal flaws. You don't get to control where your critics will focus their attention. They will find the weakest part of your claim and focus there because that's what critics are supposed to do. You don't get to demand a lengthy, affirmative rebuttal just because you spent a lengthy time building up your case. We are not here to validate your efforts.
 
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Might fall for what?

Please be specific.

Your evidence free (your opinion is not evidence) assertions that:

LHO couldn't have fired the three shots.
That another shooter with a suppressed firearm fired from the Daltex building.
Ballistic evidence (ce 399) was faked.
 
A complete analysis

I find it amazing how emotional people get over this crime. In debates with religious fanatics, I rarely saw this level of anger and ugly insults that I have found here.

I could understand that if I was going on about altered films, photos, Xrays or claiming there was a cast of thousands involved in this crime - or even if I was trying to argue that Oswald was an innocent patsy.

But the evidence I have found, suggests that the attack was carried out by several thugs rather than one. In fact, it demonstrates that the rifle Lee Harvey Oswald used, could not possibly have accounted for all the shots.

This forum was supposed to provide an opportunity to present facts and evidence which would be objectively and fairly judged, and I think several people have tried to do that. But some, and by far, the loudest have acted much more like blind advocates for the lone nut theory than anything approaching an objective evaluation.

For them, no evidence will be convincing. But for those who are objective and honest enough, I would like to offer this presentation which analyzes the shooting from start to finish. In it, you will hear words that are rarely heard these days, by advocates from either side of the conspiracy debate - like "maybe", "probably", "almost", and even, "I don't know".

But there will also be certainties, most importantly, the fact that Oswald did not and could not have acted alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE

As you will see in this presentation, I feel quite confident that Carlos Marcello was behind the assassination. The very best and most respected researchers, like Robert Blakey, Anthony Summers and Lamar Waldron came to that same conclusion and as you will see in the following short videos, so did Carlos Marcello.

Marcello confessed to an undercover, FBI informant, that David Ferrie introduced him to Oswald at a meeting at his brother's restaurant in New Orleans and that he ordered the assassination of president Kennedy. I will be posting more about this, a bit later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfWGWcR_J0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exXDcu-yRiw
 
But there will also be certainties, most importantly, the fact that Oswald did not and could not have acted alone.

Which is pretty much entirely predicated on your view that there was an extra shot taken at 285, itself based entirely on your interpretation of the movements of people in the limo.

And people here have been fairly consistently pointing out that you have failed to prove that.
 
I find it amazing how emotional people get over this crime. In debates with religious fanatics, I rarely saw this level of anger and ugly insults that I have found here.
No, you've found it frustrating to have your CTist techniques pointed out to you and short circuited. This has caused you to take the route of name-calling Not at all uncommon among CTists, as you would find if you had read the rest of the thread as you were advised.

I could understand that if I was going on about altered films, photos, Xrays or claiming there was a cast of thousands involved in this crime - or even if I was trying to argue that Oswald was an innocent patsy.
Actually, none of the CTists understand logic when it is applied to their own pet CT. You should try to actually read some of the posts.

But the evidence I have found, suggests that the attack was carried out by several thugs rather than one. In fact, it demonstrates that the rifle Lee Harvey Oswald used, could not possibly have accounted for all the shots.
No, as has been pointed out to you, you are making inferences and calling them evidence and becoming peeved when your inferences are questioned.

This forum was supposed to provide an opportunity to present facts and evidence which would be objectively and fairly judged, and I think several people have tried to do that. But some, and by far, the loudest have acted much more like blind advocates for the lone nut theory than anything approaching an objective evaluation.
No, you haven't presented facts. You've presented inferences and called them facts and become peeved when your opinions were rightfully questioned. Seriously, read the rebuttals which you don't even recognize as rebuttals.

For them, no evidence will be convincing. But for those who are objective and honest enough, I would like to offer this presentation which analyzes the shooting from start to finish. In it, you will hear words that are rarely heard these days, by advocates from either side of the conspiracy debate - like "maybe", "probably", "almost", and even, "I don't know".
Actually, those are the words used most often by CTists. Those are their "get out of jail free" words, the ones which allow them to avoid any sort of burden of proof or necessity to stand up to the arbitrary standard of evidence they impose on the conventional narrative.

But there will also be certainties, most importantly, the fact that Oswald did not and could not have acted alone.
No, that isn't a fact. As you've been educated on many times now, your inferences aren't facts.

I knew there would be YouTube videos.

As you will see in this presentation, I feel quite confident that Carlos Marcello was behind the assassination. The very best and most respected researchers, like Robert Blakey, Anthony Summers and Lamar Waldron came to that same conclusion and as you will see in the following short videos, so did Carlos Marcello.

Marcello confessed to an undercover, FBI informant, that David Ferrie introduced him to Oswald at a meeting at his brother's restaurant in New Orleans and that he ordered the assassination of president Kennedy. I will be posting more about this, a bit later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfWGWcR_J0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exXDcu-yRiw
Argument ad YouTubum.
 
Well, I can't watch YouTube video at the moment even if I was inclined to - which to be honest I'm not.

I've looked at the analysis you have brought to this thread, supposedly proving beyond any reasonable doubt that Oswald couldn't have acted alone, but despite your conviction that no alternative interpretation was possible I found it entirely unconvincing for the reasons already discussed. So I hope you'll forgive me if I don't feel inclined to watch a presentation which will in all likelihood be conclusions built upon an initial premise I see no good reason to accept.
 
The scammers keep trying to shift the burden of proof. I mentioned several other criteria shortly after your first post.

Mr. Utah, it is not a "scam" to argue for a level playing field. This forum is unique among ALL other JFK forums that I am aware of, in which the members have made arbitrary rules that require posters to assume that one particular theory is the standard and that the composers of these strange rules do not have to present evidence to support their position.

Which you then went on to commit. I even pointed out in detail when you were committing them while making your case.

But your accusations were false. Most of them were based on what you thought I was going to do rather than what I did. But let's take one of the recent ones. I asked you to support your accusation that I have been refuted, by citing a specific example. You replied,

"Your claim is an inference based on subjective judgment and begged questions."

As we both know, the science of Drs. Alvarez and Stroscio was an objective analysis of specific streaks in the Zapruder film. Those streaks were carefully measured by Alvarez, who had studied this phenomena in Africa. He also charted the reactions and listed those charts in his paper to the Journal of American Physics.

Why would you label that a "subjective judgement"?

And I have proven to you, with empirical evidence, that those people ducked and spun around at extreme speed, in perfect unison with one another - beginning in exactly the same frame that Zapruder's reaction began.

That is not "subjective" Jay. That is as objective and empirical as things get.

I suppose you could say that the near unanimous recollections of the witnesses were subjective, but that doesn't make that evidence worthless. Witnesses are certainly, not infallible. But as the Warren Commission confirmed, most of them were very, very consistent. Do you think it is reasonable to assume that so many made exactly the same error?

You attempted to blow all this off, with sweeping generalizations but your generalizations were simply untrue.

It's not anyone's fault but yours that your approach is indistinguishable from every other conspiracy theorist's and therefore predictable.

I'm not sure what you mean by that. I present evidence and form conclusions based on that evidence. If other conspiracy advocates do the same, then I plead guilty. But then, so is every good scientist and criminologist on the planet.

You conflate the uniqueness of your narrative with the common methods you use to compose, present, and defend it. Every single conspiracy theorist relies upon the rhetorical tactics I outlined at the start.

Mr. Utah. I presented my case in a very straightforward and unambiguous manner. I use terms of uncertainty quite frequently. And I will stand behind every statement I ever made. When I do express certainty, I do so after presenting very solid evidence to support that claim.

If I am able to predict how you will present your case, and tick off the items as they appear in your posts, that should give you pause. Instead you complain about being found out.

I never made such a complaint.

And without exception, you never reference specific, verbatim statements I have made. You spew out these insulting accusations and endlessly vague generalizations with no logical justification whatsoever.

I have never in my life, encountered someone who was so fanatically judgmental and so consistently wrong.

Over two decades, I have debated with countless lone nut advocates, from John McAdams who holds a Phd from Harvard, to Larry Sturdevant, to Michael Shermer and even Gerald Posner, with whom I have exchanged emails. And although we agreed on very little, none of them spewed out the kind of insults that you do.

It is a waste of time and bandwidth to continually engage in these personal attacks. You diminish your own credibility when you do that, as do I when I respond in kind.

I propose that we both change our tactics and stick to the facts and evidence. That's all that really matters and I'm pretty sure that's all our readers want to hear from us.
 
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I find it amazing how emotional people get over this crime. In debates with religious fanatics, I rarely saw this level of anger and ugly insults that I have found here.

I could understand that if I was going on about altered films, photos, Xrays or claiming there was a cast of thousands involved in this crime - or even if I was trying to argue that Oswald was an innocent patsy.

But the evidence I have found, suggests that the attack was carried out by several thugs rather than one. In fact, it demonstrates that the rifle Lee Harvey Oswald used, could not possibly have accounted for all the shots.

This forum was supposed to provide an opportunity to present facts and evidence which would be objectively and fairly judged, and I think several people have tried to do that. But some, and by far, the loudest have acted much more like blind advocates for the lone nut theory than anything approaching an objective evaluation.

For them, no evidence will be convincing. But for those who are objective and honest enough, I would like to offer this presentation which analyzes the shooting from start to finish. In it, you will hear words that are rarely heard these days, by advocates from either side of the conspiracy debate - like "maybe", "probably", "almost", and even, "I don't know".

But there will also be certainties, most importantly, the fact that Oswald did not and could not have acted alone.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvqCtaBkyyE

As you will see in this presentation, I feel quite confident that Carlos Marcello was behind the assassination. The very best and most respected researchers, like Robert Blakey, Anthony Summers and Lamar Waldron came to that same conclusion and as you will see in the following short videos, so did Carlos Marcello.

Marcello confessed to an undercover, FBI informant, that David Ferrie introduced him to Oswald at a meeting at his brother's restaurant in New Orleans and that he ordered the assassination of president Kennedy. I will be posting more about this, a bit later.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hfWGWcR_J0k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=exXDcu-yRiw

Marcello "confessed" to a jailhouse snitch, not an FBI UC.

I've read Legacy of Secrecy, and it has much in common with your posts here, as in assertion and subjective interpretation of the evidence takes precedence over the established facts.
 
And I have proven to you, with empirical evidence, that those people ducked and spun around at extreme speed, in perfect unison with one another - beginning in exactly the same frame that Zapruder's reaction began.

Umm. No.

You have brought to my attention that there's a point where the people in the car sway forward and sway back slightly, all in unison. I presume we're all familiar enough with the experience of travelling in a car to recognise that as the effect of a car varying its acceleration.
 
snipped...

I propose that we both change our tactics and stick to the facts and evidence. That's all that really matters and I'm pretty sure that's all our readers want to hear from us.

If you're going to continue to insist that your assertions about the causation of bodily movements seen in the Zapruder film can only be interpreted as reactions to gunfire we might as well call it quits here.
 
I realize that I have permitted myself to be dragged down into the muck, by the local trolls here, and have started to sound like them, myself. Please accept my apology for that.
That's an apology?

In any event, you have not been trolled or dragged through the muck. If you're feeling persecuted, your ego may be getting the better of you. For my part, I am regarding your words, not you.

I guess I didn't expect this kind of ad hominem smears and dishonesty to exist in such a highly regarded forum as this one, and was caught a bit off guard.
Spare me. Your words, written to put forth your thoughts, are being considered lacking. The way forward is to deal with what have been articulate, no nonsense responses to those thoughts.
 
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