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South Carolina, tear down that flag!

If the flag is removed from a public display at a monument, quite certainly freedom of speech has been violated. Who owns the public monument? Hint, we do. Chris B.

Since 'we' own this monument, 'we' then decide what flag is flown at 'our' monument, no? It seems 'we' have spoken, and 'we' are removing the flag in due course of law.

What, precisely, is your complaint, then?
 
If the flag is removed from a public display at a monument, quite certainly freedom of speech has been violated. Who owns the public monument? Hint, we do. Chris B.

So is freedom of speech violated anytime a government decides to modify a publicly owned monument or just when you are against the modification?
 
The funny part is the claim that It's "politically correct" to call it a symbol of hate or to take it down. No, it's simply correct to call it a symbol of hate. That's why it's around. The politicians saying that it's "become a symbol of hate", are being politically correct.

Taking it down is simply what we should be doing.
 
And what if those same people feel the flag of the US is also irredeemably blemished? Chris B.

Considering the US flag is owned by the citizenry, then it is just as subject to our moral judgements. Who else should have that power, if not the citizens of the country the flag represents?

Not to put to fine a point on it, but the current US flag is just one of a long series of official flags that have been adopted and then abandoned. My wife was in ToastMasters with the guy who designed the current pattern of stars.
 
Hmm, you are either uninformed or you're lying. Certainly we had a flag in 1776 that represented the United States as a Country.

According to wiki (which I linked to) and the Smithsonian Institution, the U.S. did not have an official flag until the Flag Act of 1777.

I also remember reading a document that states "We the People of the United States" during this same period. I don't seem to recall anything stating "We the People of the 13 Colonies".

Probably something most people skim over. Pay it no mind, it certainly isn't relevant. [emoji10]

We are discussing the removal of a particular flag for particular reasons that would seem to justify it's removal by using moral objections. Those same reasons used for removal of the confederate battle flag apply to the flag of the United States as well. So if you remove one, the other may be removed for the same exact reasons. Point being don't throw away freedom of speech even if that speech is unpopular. Tolerance is what it's about, not political correctness and vote seeking.

Chris B.


Not the same thing at all. The Confederate Battle Flag is a standard of an odious regime based entirely on the idea that people of a particular ethnic background can be considered property. The U.S., for all its faults, generally is moving towards greater freedom for all its citizens.

In this case the government representing the people is listening to the people who are telling them, "This isn't cool anymore, take it down and let's move on." If you don't like it start a petition, and do what you can to put it back up. It is a free country.
 
If the flag is removed from a public display at a monument, quite certainly freedom of speech has been violated. Who owns the public monument? Hint, we do. Chris B.

What a moronic argument. I never wanted to fly the Confederate flag. How is it violating my speech if the flag isn't flown?
 
The Consitution does have a indirect reference to Slavery in the infamous 3/5 of a man provision.
Jeffeson wrote a clause into the Declaration of Inddpendenc condemning the Slave Trade,but it was dropped. There is a great scene...and song about this in the play and movie "1776" called "Rum Tobbaco,and Slaves".

There is agreat line in Speilberg's Lincoln were after the Amendment abolishing Slavery is passed, Thaddeus Stevens notes that the US constitution mentions Slavery by name only once..to abolish it.

BTW although it is a musical, 1776 is surprising accurate about the debate over the Declaration Of Indendence.
Just nitpicking because despite its many flaws, I love that show.

It's called Molasses, to Rum, Slaves.

Listen to a performance here.

Read the lyrics here.

Immensely powerful.
 
If the flag is removed from a public display at a monument, quite certainly freedom of speech has been violated. Who owns the public monument? Hint, we do. Chris B.

I must concur with others, mostly.

It's a public monument. The flag will only come down if the legislature says it should come down. There's no free speech issue unless they start banning it from private monuments or displays.

There is, though, a sort of gray area where free speech isn't technically restricted by the government, but in which people are still afraid to say what they are thinking. This can occur when popular pressure and threats of economic reprisal exist. In extreme cases, this might even extend to physical reprisals or threats of the same. An example in the current situation is the removal of flag related materials from Amazon. I don't believe for one minute that Jeff Bezos and company had a sudden flare up of conscience that made them remove Civil War wargames from the shelves. Rather, I'm fairly confident that they saw a potential boycott brewing, and did a calculation of how much they made by selling confederate flag related materials, versus how much they would lose in other sales from upset customers who suddenly thought of that flag as an issue. Technically, no one's free speech was violated, but if you can't see how that has a chilling effect on free expression, you aren't trying very hard.



On a different note, I was thinking about "heritage", and what that meant in this context. Is there anything that flag could symbolize, related to heritage, other than slavery or segregation? Isn't that pretty much the only heritage that binds that region together?

I don't think so. I thought of two big things. There are lots of little things, like grits and sweet tea, but those wouldn't get anyone all that worked up about regionalism, but I thought of two big things. The first is simply family. Go back to 1961 when those flags started reviving in a big way. Think about how a sixty year old state legislator might view that flag. It might make him think about the soldiers who fought in that war, and that might mean grandpa. 100 years is a long time, but not so long that some of those people would have actually known a few Civil War veterans. There might be more great-grandparents, but society was a lot less mobile in those days, and Southern society even less so than the rest of the country. If you lived in the South in 1961, it's a good bet that you had ancestors who fought in that war on the Confederate side, and not just distant, hypothetical, ancestors, but really people that even if you didn't remember them, you could probably find their tombstone on Decoration Day.

Another big thing, and this might sound stupid, but I think it's real, is that accent. When a Southerner starts talking, everyone knows he's a southerner. It marks them as distinct from the rest of the nation. It's not as extreme as distinctive skin tones or facial features, but it's close. Things like that make people bind together, and help make them feel that part of their identity is associated with that region of the country. When there's a symbol strongly associated with that region, it's not odd that those people who are part of that region might identify with that symbol, whether or not they cling to the ideology that is associated with that symbol, or generally with the region it represents.

In other words, that symbol is undoubtedly associated with racism and slavery, but that doesn't mean that is the only thing it's associated with.

I still think that the fact so many modern day users of the flag publicly disavow racism and hate groups should be seen as a victory. You are better off leaving the flag and getting those disavowals than you would be if you could get rid of the flag.
 
What a moronic argument. I never wanted to fly the Confederate flag. How is it violating my speech if the flag isn't flown?

I've never wanted to fly that flag either, but others DO want to fly that flag and it's their right to do so. Your freedom of speech would not be violated in this case of course and neither would mine, but those folks who wanted the flag flown would have certainly been censored. Next time it may be you that's censored in some fashion. To accept the censor of others without realizing it may also relate to you at some future date is absolutely a moronic thing to do. I don't accept any attack on free speech whether it's popular or not and what we have being demonstrated is an attack on free speech in the US.
Chris B.
 
There is, though, a sort of gray area where free speech isn't technically restricted by the government, but in which people are still afraid to say what they are thinking. This can occur when popular pressure and threats of economic reprisal exist. In extreme cases, this might even extend to physical reprisals or threats of the same. An example in the current situation is the removal of flag related materials from Amazon. I don't believe for one minute that Jeff Bezos and company had a sudden flare up of conscience that made them remove Civil War wargames from the shelves. Rather, I'm fairly confident that they saw a potential boycott brewing, and did a calculation of how much they made by selling confederate flag related materials, versus how much they would lose in other sales from upset customers who suddenly thought of that flag as an issue. Technically, no one's free speech was violated, but if you can't see how that has a chilling effect on free expression, you aren't trying very hard.
I agree with you. It's far too easy to simply dismiss freedom of expression as a govt thing.

However, this is one problem govt cannot solve. We can only try to educate ourselves and each other to understand the problems inherent to stigmatizing speech while at the same time, recognizing that some speech we ought to avoid.

Still, I recognize that I live in a society and we are going to get it wrong from time to time.
 
...but others DO want to fly that flag and it's their right to do so.

It still is.

Your freedom of speech would not be violated in this case of course and neither would mine, but those folks who wanted the flag flown would have certainly been censored.
Chris B.

NO! They're still free to fly their stupid flag all they want. They can hang it in their yard or fly it from their pickup truck. Nobody is stopping them. Nothing is being censored.

Steve S
 
I've never wanted to fly that flag either, but others DO want to fly that flag and it's their right to do so. Your freedom of speech would not be violated in this case of course and neither would mine, but those folks who wanted the flag flown would have certainly been censored. Next time it may be you that's censored in some fashion. To accept the censor of others without realizing it may also relate to you at some future date is absolutely a moronic thing to do. I don't accept any attack on free speech whether it's popular or not and what we have being demonstrated is an attack on free speech in the US.
Chris B.

Again, I AGREE!

I wanted to use spray paint to write my name on the Wahington Monument but my right to free speech was trampled on by U.S. Government agents. Sure, I can write my name on my property, but if I can't write my name on government buildings and monuments, then I have no free speech at all.

Amen, Brother Chris. Preach on!
 
I agree with you. It's far too easy to simply dismiss freedom of expression as a govt thing.

However, this is one problem govt cannot solve. We can only try to educate ourselves and each other to understand the problems inherent to stigmatizing speech while at the same time, recognizing that some speech we ought to avoid.

Still, I recognize that I live in a society and we are going to get it wrong from time to time.

That's all well and good - but I'm going to guess that Amazon isn't much concerned about this issue, being a for-profit company that, last I checked (and it was long ago) had no real issues treating their warehouse workers like crap. They most likely have the same policy of giving an embarrassing employee the boot as the rest of them do.

Similarly, which symbols *a government* chooses to display, can say a lot about the collective will of the people. And even if you think the Battle Flag represents "heritage", you should understand exactly what heritage it represents. Because that little terrorist did, and a lot of other people do, and they'll associate you with him if they see you waving it around - and with good reason. And it's not quite enough to just disavow racism - Donald Trump's done that.

I do agree, Rand, that it takes thinking and learning. And that's exactly why I'd rather those southerners - and others - waving this flag learn about it and think about what they're *actually* expressing to many other people. Because, again, this flag wasn't flown and added to state flags to celebrate *heritage* but rather *resistance to equality*. And some person saying "But to *me* it means pride" is not reassuring.
 
but those folks who wanted the flag flown would have certainly been censored.
You're changing the terms of the argument, I hope not intentionally. No. Freedom of expression would permit me to fly a flag in any place under my personal control, as I wished; or to say what I want to say to other people. Preventing me from doing these things is censorship.

But I have no right, as an individual, to require the public authorities to fly the flags I want them to fly, or say the things I want them to say. If they do something different from what I want in these domains, that is NOT censorship in any shape or form.
 
I've never wanted to fly that flag either, but others DO want to fly that flag and it's their right to do so. Your freedom of speech would not be violated in this case of course and neither would mine, but those folks who wanted the flag flown would have certainly been censored. Next time it may be you that's censored in some fashion. To accept the censor of others without realizing it may also relate to you at some future date is absolutely a moronic thing to do. I don't accept any attack on free speech whether it's popular or not and what we have being demonstrated is an attack on free speech in the US.
Chris B.

This is one of the dumbest things I've read because it absolutely misrepresents the entire situation. People can fly the flag and no one is calling for a banning of it.
What is being called for is that the government stop flying the flag.
 
What a moronic argument. I never wanted to fly the Confederate flag. How is it violating my speech if the flag isn't flown?

not to mention that ignores all those who DON'T want it flown. Flying it from a government building is a big FU to any black citizens as well as to those whose ancestors were Union.

FWIW, every confederate state but SC did send white units to the Union Army. It can get confusing sometimes where you're looking at an order of battle and see units from, say Tennessee, on both sides. Every confederate state also sent "Colored" units to the Union Army (IE the US Army), including SC.
 
On a different note, I was thinking about "heritage", and what that meant in this context. Is there anything that flag could symbolize, related to heritage, other than slavery or segregation? Isn't that pretty much the only heritage that binds that region together?

I don't think so. I thought of two big things. There are lots of little things, like grits and sweet tea,

And not even that. Grits aren't popular throughout the whole south. Definitely not a big thing in Texas when I was there, for example.

Food is not a good suggestion for common heritage. As I pointed out above, you can't even get Texas and North Carolina to agree on what constitutes "barbecue."


but those wouldn't get anyone all that worked up about regionalism, but I thought of two big things. The first is simply family. Go back to 1961 when those flags started reviving in a big way. Think about how a sixty year old state legislator might view that flag. It might make him think about the soldiers who fought in that war, and that might mean grandpa. 100 years is a long time, but not so long that some of those people would have actually known a few Civil War veterans. There might be more great-grandparents, but society was a lot less mobile in those days, and Southern society even less so than the rest of the country. If you lived in the South in 1961, it's a good bet that you had ancestors who fought in that war on the Confederate side, and not just distant, hypothetical, ancestors, but really people that even if you didn't remember them, you could probably find their tombstone on Decoration Day.

Oh come on. There are still living Germans who fought under the swastika. So what? Is that a matter of pride? Why should it be?

Yes, we can praise the bravery of our ancestors who fought in war. But their cause? It was wrong. They were absolutely on the wrong side, not just of winning, but of right. Can there be any question about that? Even in the most generous interpretation, they fought for the right to secede from the United States. They hated the United States so much that they laid down their lives to try to get away from it.

That's the family heritage. They were brave, but their cause was not just.


Another big thing, and this might sound stupid, but I think it's real, is that accent. When a Southerner starts talking, everyone knows he's a southerner.

No, that sounds stupid. Dialects vary all over, and there is a range. Louisiana is not the same as Kentucky. And we were in Florida last fall, and not a single person had a "southern accent." OK, they are all transplants, but so what? Clearly, the flag doesn't represent them now. Maybe Floridians had southern accents back in 1864, but they don't now.

So that's your big heritage? 1) Their forefathers fought for the confederacy, and 2) they have southern accents?
 

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