Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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I am curious about this statement of Vixen's

A ladies size handprint is on Mez' face.

Obviously we know it's not true but why would somebody think it was? How would you know it was a handprint from a female in any case? There are some females with bigger handprints than some males, would anyone dispute that?

It reminds me of the medical examiner in the Scazzi case (also Italy) who claimed he could tell she was strangled by a female, and not just any female, but a rather heavy-set female, just like the accused.
 
I am curious about this statement of Vixen's



Obviously we know it's not true but why would somebody think it was? How would you know it was a handprint from a female in any case? There are some females with bigger handprints than some males, would anyone dispute that?

It reminds me of the medical examiner in the Scazzi case (also Italy) who claimed he could tell she was strangled by a female, and not just any female, but a rather heavy-set female, just like the accused.

Apparently it was possibly compatible with whoever they wanted it to be compatible with.

If not, they could possibly tell that it was maybe made by the person they were thinking of.

I hope that's clear.
 
You should try asking the CPS. They'd never have been interrogated let alone charged.

And Amanda never confessed to murdering anybody.

The criteria changes all the time, but IIRC our police can hold you without charge (=questioning) for 48(?) hours. If you are suspected under the Terrorist Act, you can be held 72 (?) hours without charge, which can be extended by applying for a warrant before a magistrate.

ETA Amanda confessed to being there and taking Patrick there.

Charles Manson was charged with conspiracy to murder, when he was never there once, nor murdered anyone himself.

ETA

From:
https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-held-in-custody

The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they have to charge you with a crime or release you.

They can apply to hold you for up to 36 or 96 hours if you’re suspected of a serious crime, eg murder.

You can be held without charge for up to 14 days If you’re arrested under the Terrorism Act.
 
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The criteria changes all the time, but IIRC our police can hold you without charge (=questioning) for 48(?) hours. If you are suspected under the Terrorist Act, you can be held 72 (?) hours without charge, which can be extended by applying for a warrant before a magistrate.

ETA Amanda confessed to being there and taking Patrick there.

Charles Manson was charged with conspiracy to murder, when he was never there once, nor murdered anyone himself.

ETA

From:
https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-held-in-custody

The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they have to charge you with a crime or release you.

They can apply to hold you for up to 36 or 96 hours if you’re suspected of a serious crime, eg murder.

You can be held without charge for up to 14 days If you’re arrested under the Terrorism Act.

But, they must offer you legal representation and would not be allowed to tell you that you would be better off without legal help.

Also, they would have to record all interviews and would have to provide these recordings when asked.

This doesn't eradicate the chances of police intimidation/brutality, but it certainly reduces the chances of this happening.
 
The treatment of Patrick is one of the most interesting sub-plots to this story.
The police arrest him based supposedly on Amanda's "confession". Amanda completely withdraws her accusation the day after her arrest. The evidence against Patrick is crumbling. The police have got a real problem. They can't find anything to hold Lumumba for. The coming forward of the Swiss professor to confirm his alibi clinches the matter and they are forced to release him. The police arrest Guede and keep the "sex game gone wrong" theory that the tabloids love so much. Lumumba is angry at both the police and Amanda and files civil suits against both. He tells about his abuse at the hands of the police to the Daily Mail. The police retaliate by refusing permission for him to reopen his bar. Lumumba is forced to drop the charges against the police and he agrees to join the prosecution and the smear campaign against Amanda. The prosecution dodges a bullet and Mignini saves face. Lumumba is promised compensation from "rich" Amanda. A sad story but as an immigrant what were his choices? We have not been told about the pressure that he must have endured, especially from Mignini after that Daily Mail article. His lawyer must have been stringing him along all the way up to the final acquittal. Some day he will tell the real story of what happened to him.

There is no doubt police were very tough with Patrick and Raff, far more so than Amanda! Yes, they were wise to shy away from maligning the police. As you know, with Italy's huge mafia problem, with the Family undermining the police at every angle, draconian laws had to be brought in to protect law and order from false charges. Why didn't Vedova shut Amanda up, and just concentrate on the charges.

Police believed another two people were involved. At that stage, Patrick having called off Amanda coming in due to almost no customers (IIRC receipts show one or two after 10:00pm). Sure, they are reasonably suspicious, especially Amanda literally texting see you later and then deleting it. Where was he between 20:00 and 23:00? It is a pertinent question.
 
There is no doubt police were very tough with Patrick and Raff, far more so than Amanda! Yes, they were wise to shy away from maligning the police. As you know, with Italy's huge mafia problem, with the Family undermining the police at every angle, draconian laws had to be brought in to protect law and order from false charges. Why didn't Vedova shut Amanda up, and just concentrate on the charges.

Police believed another two people were involved. At that stage, Patrick having called off Amanda coming in due to almost no customers (IIRC receipts show one or two after 10:00pm). Sure, they are reasonably suspicious, especially Amanda literally texting see you later and then deleting it. Where was he between 20:00 and 23:00? It is a pertinent question.

Vixen, Patrick did NOT shy away from maligning police. As mentioned above, he sold his story to an English tabloid for E75,000 IIRC and I believe the reason his bar was kept closed long after his release from prison was because police wanted him to withdraw his claims of being beaten, called a 'dirty black' and being threatened to 30 yrs in prison. Of course the oddest thing is that the tabloid was never sued nor withdrew the article. It is still there for the world to see.
I put this here for any who stumble into the thread and have never read Lumumbas words.

At 6.30am on Tuesday, November
6, the bell to his fourth-floor
flat in the town buzzed insistently
and a woman's voice outside
demanded he opened the door.
He had barely had time to do so
when the woman, assisted by,
Patrick estimates, 15 to 20 others,
barged their way in.
"They were wearing normal
clothes and carrying guns," he says.
"I thought it must be some sort of
armed gang about to kill me. I was
terrified.
"They hit me over the head and
yelled 'dirty black'. Then they put
handcuffs on me and shoved me out
of the door, as Aleksandra pulled
Davide away, screaming."
He was greeted outside by a
convoy of seven police cars, sirens
blazing, and driven to Perugia's
police station, where he was subjected
to a ten-hour interrogation.
"I was questioned by five men and
women, some of whom punched
and kicked me," he claims. "They
forced me on my knees against the
wall and said I should be in America
where I would be given the electric
chair for my crime. All they kept
saying was, 'You did it, you did it.'
"I didn't know what I'd 'done'. I
was scared and humiliated. Then,
after a couple of hours one of them
suggested they show me a picture of
'the dead girl' to get me to confess.
"It might sound naive, but it was
only then that I made the connection
between Meredith's death and my
arrest. Stunned, I said, 'You think I
killed Meredith?'
"They said, 'Oh, so now you've
remembered' and told me that if I
confessed I'd only get half the
30-year sentence."




Your thoughts?
 
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"As the days passed police claimed to have further evidence against him (Patrick), including proof from his mobile phone that he was near Meredith's house around the time of her death, ..."
Daily Mail- 25 Nov, 2007

This same scientific proof that is still a major part of the so-called evidence that Amanda received the SMS text from Patrick when she was away from Raffaele's apartment was used to prove that Patrick was not at his pub when he texted her. This is an important piece of the mountain of evidence against Knox. And yet it took over seven years to refute this rubbish. It's like one of those fatbergs in the sewers of London.:toiletpap


This was human error as highlighted by Nick van der Leek in DECEIT. The text going OUT to Patrick from Amanda was mistakenly referred to as coming IN from Patrick, and repeated by Massei. In fact, this proves beyond any doubt Amanda was at or near the cottage when she texted him, as that mast does not cover Raff's abode.
 
This was human error as highlighted by Nick van der Leek in DECEIT. The text going OUT to Patrick from Amanda was mistakenly referred to as coming IN from Patrick, and repeated by Massei. In fact, this proves beyond any doubt Amanda was at or near the cottage when she texted him, as that mast does not cover Raff's abode.

Here we go again.
 
Vixen, since you are so convinced. Let us make a wager. I'll bet you $10,000 U.S. Dollars to say one thousand British pounds that Amanda or Raffaele will NEVER be under any criminal charge again for Meredith's murder. Payable in one year. We'll put it in an escrow account.

Sorry, it's against my principles to gamble, with the exception it's for charity fundraising.

We can have a virtual bet, but you need to extend it to three years, given how slow the Italian system is.

Put it on the Chicago Options to hedge my bet, me being a savvy accountant an'all.
 
Hi Vixen,
it's summertime,
do you folks get watermelon in your neck of the world?

If so, wanna do a test?
Purchase a watermelon, go grab a large kitchen knife, get pissed off and enraged and stab the watermelon 3 times in quick succession, in the same spot, allowing only half of the blade to enter the wound you made.

Who stabs a watermelon using only half of the blade?
Someone enraged enough to wanna kill a watermelon would stab a knife into the hilt.


Vixen,
have a look below at The Knife you claim is the murder weapon.
It's too big to match the wounds on Miss Kercher's neck.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9305[/qimg]


[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9937[/qimg]


Raffaele's Kitchen Knife isn't the murder weapon!


ETA:
Please be carefull handling knives, Vixen,
I'd hate for you to cut your hand like Rudy Guede did when he used a knife.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=480&pictureid=9518[/qimg]


Summertime an' the livin' is ee-easy. Fish are jumpin' and the cotton is high. My mama's rich and my daddy's goodlookin' so hush little baby doe-on't you cryyyy.

We have a large Cypriot contingent this part of London and they love their melons.

Re the fatal wound. The initial thrust was a downward stab. The next two was merely a sawing motion, to emphasise the sheer venomosity felt by the perp towards the victim.
 
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You have proven me wrong on a few things Grinder. But on this, it is you that is off base. The court ruled and the logic rules, Rudy was there to steal, not to sleep. That he didn't get a chance to steal is more luck than anything.

Why do you think the Ms. Prato's computer's cables had been disconnected? It's clear that he was preparing to steal it until he heard people entering the nursery. There were no signs that he spent the night.

Rudy is a small time thief. Why wouldn't he go back to the place he made a big score?

My take is he went there to sleep, disconnected the cable to attach to "his" laptop, as the teacher bod found. Money lying around? Hey, investigate.
 
The statements 1, 2, 3, 4 in the above quote (my numbering) are each false. Note that the poster has not provided any citations in support of any of these statements.

Here is the truth relating to each of these statements. The source of my information is: The Italian Code of Criminal Procedure: Critical essays and English translation, ed. Mitja Gialuz, Luca Luparia, and Federica Scarpa; Wolters Kluwer Italia (c) 2014.

1. Code of Criminal Procedure (CPP) Article 620 is the Italian procedural law which governs the annulment of an appealed case without referral by the Supreme Court of Cassation (CSC). There are ten sub-paragraphs, 1A through 1L, each describing a situation or status where the CSC may annul a case that has been appealed to it without referral. The tenth, 1L, is very broad; it states:



Thus, if the CSC panel reviewing an appeal believes that the judgment of the lower court should be annulled, it has the legal authority to do so. If it believes that referral after annulment is unnecessary, it need not refer the case. Finally, the CSC has the authority to determine the sentence - which means it may follow or invoke any of the CPP Articles 529 (Judgment of non-prosecution), 530 (Judgment of acquittal), 531 (Declaration of extinguishment of the offence), 533 (Conviction of the accused person), or any of the other articles of sentencing, such as those relating to civil actions.

2. This statement is obviously false. There is in fact no authority in Italy, with the possible exception of the Supreme Constitutional Court, which could by law judge the legality of a CSC decision. If a CSC decision were to allegedly violate the Convention rights of a person, for example by allegedly wrongfully convicting as a result of a violation of ECHR case-law, that person can lodge a claim against Italy with the ECHR. That is what Amanda Knox has done with respect to her final conviction for calunnia against Patrick Lumumba. According to judgment No. 113/2011 of the Italian Supreme Constitutional Court, a revision trial may be requested in order to comply with a final decision from the ECHR. Final judgments of the CSC may not be appealed, and a retrial after a final acquittal by the CSC (which is what the Marasca panel has issued for Knox and Sollecito) would be a violation of the prohibition against double jeopardy.

3. The situation regarding the CSC invoking CPP Art. 530 was explained in (1). The CSC has the authority by CPP Art. 620 para. 1L to invoke this sentence. The findings of the lower courts have been annulled and are not at issue, although no doubt the CSC will make some mention of them in its Motivation Report.

4. The Marasca panel reviewed the judgment of the Nencini court in accordance with appeals, as provided for in CPP Article 606. While the Nencini court was obligated to follow the CSC interpretation of law, in accordance with CPP Article 627 para. 3. There was no obligation for the Nencini referral court to follow any interpretation of fact suggested by the Chieffi CSC panel. The CSC may not impose any interpretation of law that violates the explicit wording of the CPP, the Italian Constitution, or the intent of the Convention and ECHR case-law. Thus, the CSC is free understand the appeals in light of, for example: CPP Art. 606 para. 1e, the grounds of a judgment are lacking, contradictory, or manifestly illogical; and CPP Art. 606 para. 1b, failure to comply with or misapplication of criminal law or other legal rules which must be considered in the application of criminal law.

CPP Art. 606 para. 1e allows the CSC to evaluate the logic of how the evidence was evaluated by the lower court, among other things. CPP Art. 606 para. 1b allows the CSC to evaluate the conformance of the lower court procedures and legal reasoning to the CPP, the Italian Constitution, and the ECHR case-law.

This applies EXCEPT for murder cases.
 
That no identifiable prints were found does not mean he lamp was wiped clean of all fingerprints. You should know as a Mensa member that your statement is a "Post Hoc Ergo Propter Hoc" type of fallacy.

You can't have your cake and eat it. Your main neme is, there is no evidence of Amanda there.

As Dr Gill (?) said, absence of DNA is not absence from the scene.
 
You can't have your cake and eat it. Your main neme is, there is no evidence of Amanda there.

As Dr Gill (?) said, absence of DNA is not absence from the scene.

I thought the pro guilt meme was that Guede could not have broken into Filomena's room because there was no DNA of him in the room.
 
But Giobbi did not say it matched.

Giobbi testimony;
"GB:
You went into the room of the crime, and what did you do on that occasion?
EG:
I went to see simply the issue of the wardrobe, of the doors. I remember because the body was positioned in a way, however in reality the spatters of blood were on another, shall we say, in order to check, they were not in front or near, they were put [sic], the head between the bed and the wardrobe and the spatters were in a diagonal towards the bottom, on the two [wardrobe] doors.
GB:
When you entered, were the doors still attached to the wardrobe? Because we know that they were later removed.
EG:
Yes.
GB:
So you enter [sic] that time, and see these spatters of blood on the still-attached [wardrobe] doors?
EG:
Yes. I said that I entered. I don’t recall properly when, but the doors were attached because I recall that I checked the spatters.
GB:
When you enter of course you remember the doors, and what activity did you carry out on that occasion?
EG:
I stooped down, still standing, to look for a moment in this way, for ten [or] fifteen seconds I’d say, and then I went out."

So he never looked at or for fingerprints in the room.

Your reference;

"OK, the source is as follows:

Quote:
By now, Perugia investigators were also aware of another finding from Edgardo Giobbi of Rome's Serious Crime Squad. Apparently Giobbi had determined that a fingerprint found on the inside of Meredith's door matched Raffaele's, despite the fact that he had not gone into her room prior to when he followed police inside on the day her body was discovered. Also troubling was the footprint in blood found inside her room - it matched the size 42 Nike trainers Raffaele owned.
"Rudy Guede wears size 45," Giobbi said.
However, Giovanni Arcudi, an expert for the defence who planned to argue for Raffaele's release in the coming days countered with: "That footprint does not possess clear and definite characteristics."

p 124 - 125 Gary C King The Murder of Meredith Kercher 2010 (John Blake)"

But Giobbi is not a fingerprint technician. He did not collect fingerprints. He is not competent to report on fingerprint matches. He did not look at anything except the wardrobe doors. We do have the testimony of the fingerprint experts and there were no fingerprints of Sollecito on the inside of the door.

We do know that Giobbi shoots his mouth off;

"EG:
I did so many interviews.
LG:
Do you know what you said? Two things: one that you arrived in the afternoon and that you immediately suspected them because of the kisses they gave [each other] outside the house. I heard it myself. So we will acquire that transmission. Instead, it turns out that you arrived in the late evening. Then you said that there came …"

So we know he is quite capable of claiming to the media that he was present and saw things, which he could not have seen because he was not present.

So we know Giobbi is unreliable in statements to the media. So even assuming King represented correctly Giobbi, we can have doubt about his veracity, because we have documented evidence of his lying to media.

We have the testimony of the fingerprint experts.

Do you accept that it is not true that Sollecito's fingerprints were on the inside of the bedroom door?


I wouldn't know what the truth is here. However, I am the kinda person who believes early news reports tend to be historically closer to the truth than later political, PR and lawyer-managed spin.

I have done some historical research surrounding WW2 and WW1. I visited British Library Newspaper Library quite a lot (as well as the RAF Museum nearby).

Reading early TIMES reports (fantastic journalism; very learned) of the Siege of Stalingrad, for example, showed how the news developed before it became fixed in textbooks.

You might mock the press, but many journalists, authors and lawyers, use newspaper archives as valuable research material.
 
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The criteria changes all the time, but IIRC our police can hold you without charge (=questioning) for 48(?) hours. If you are suspected under the Terrorist Act, you can be held 72 (?) hours without charge, which can be extended by applying for a warrant before a magistrate.

ETA Amanda confessed to being there and taking Patrick there.

Charles Manson was charged with conspiracy to murder, when he was never there once, nor murdered anyone himself.

ETA

From:
https://www.gov.uk/arrested-your-rights/how-long-you-can-be-held-in-custody

The police can hold you for up to 24 hours before they have to charge you with a crime or release you.

They can apply to hold you for up to 36 or 96 hours if you’re suspected of a serious crime, eg murder.

You can be held without charge for up to 14 days If you’re arrested under the Terrorism Act.

What does terrorism have to do with this? According to Giobbi, who lied about what he witnessed and according to Mignini and Ficarra, Amanda was immediately suspected because her boyfriend kissed her. In the UK, kissing does not trigger suspicion in murder cases.

Previously, you maintained that Amanda confessed to murder. She did not.
 
I wouldn't know what the truth is here. However, I am the kinda person who believes early news reports tend to be historically closer to the truth than later political, PR and lawyer-managed spin.I have done some historical research surrounding WW2 and WW1. I visited British Library Newspaper Library quite a lot (as well as the RAF Museum nearby).

Reading early TIMES reports (fantastic journalism; very learned) of the Siege of Stalingrad, for example, showed how the news developed before it became fixed in textbooks.

You might mock the press, but many journalists, authors and lawyers, use newspaper archives as valuable research material.

Weapons of mass destruction?
 
I am curious about this statement of Vixen's



Obviously we know it's not true but why would somebody think it was? How would you know it was a handprint from a female in any case? There are some females with bigger handprints than some males, would anyone dispute that?

It reminds me of the medical examiner in the Scazzi case (also Italy) who claimed he could tell she was strangled by a female, and not just any female, but a rather heavy-set female, just like the accused.


The science of ecchymosis (bruises and discolouration) is quite a revealing one for pathologists. From the bruising they were able to tell Mez was gripped tightly around the wrists and elbow. and which explained the shoulder dislocation causing Mez to suffer loss of movement in that arm.

Fingertype ecchymosis was found around Mez's nostrils and lower face. Women's hands tend to be significantly smaller than men's and they were able to tell from the bruises it tended towards a more feminine hand (I know plenty of men have small hands).
 
There is no doubt police were very tough with Patrick and Raff, far more so than Amanda! Yes, they were wise to shy away from maligning the police. As you know, with Italy's huge mafia problem, with the Family undermining the police at every angle, draconian laws had to be brought in to protect law and order from false charges. Why didn't Vedova shut Amanda up, and just concentrate on the charges.

Police believed another two people were involved. At that stage, Patrick having called off Amanda coming in due to almost no customers (IIRC receipts show one or two after 10:00pm). Sure, they are reasonably suspicious, especially Amanda literally texting see you later and then deleting it. Where was he between 20:00 and 23:00? It is a pertinent question.

Great system eh? The police have free reign to coerce you in interrogation and when you give evidence in court in your defence, they get to sue you for defamation. And you haven't stopped once to consider why we have all these recordings in this case, including bugged conversations in the questura, but no recording of her final interrogation. This now becomes Italy's and not Amanda's burden at the ECHR.

Mignini lied in Amanda's arrest warrant about what she actually texted to Patrick.
 
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