South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[TragicMonkey]

A clear strawman that is not helping further the discussion.

What discussion? Nothing's been furthered. South bad, North good. Repeat a billion times, and wonder why some Southerners don't seem to like it. Must be their evil stupidity, what else could it be?

 

[thaiboxerken]

What discussion? Nothing's been furthered. South bad, North good. Repeat a billion times, and wonder why some Southerners don't seem to like it. Must be their evil stupidity, what else could it be?

I don't think anyone said Southerners are bad or evil. Nice try, though.

 

[TragicMonkey]

The US managed to outlaw slavery. The Confederacy, never did - although according to the revisionists they were perpetually "about to".

Ah. The last sinner to reform inherits all the guilt. If there had been a second secession, say Alabama held out after the rest of the Confederacy surrendered, would we now blame only Alabama for slavery? After all, they would have kept slavery longer.

 

[Mumbles]

The US managed to outlaw slavery. The Confederacy, never did - although according to the revisionists they were perpetually "about to".

...which, given that their often-stated aim was to advance slavery based on skin color, is no surprise.

 

[Cleon]

It's not whether the USA or CSA had slavery first, it's that one side was trying to get rid of it while the other created a government explicitly to defend it.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I don't think anyone said Southerners are bad or evil. Nice try, though.

I said "South", not "Southerners". But I was referring to the abortive nation. Sorry, sloppy phrasing. My point is that the US before the split was up to its neck in horrible actions, but it gets a free pass on all of it because one separatist movement kept doing one of the horrors longer. I'm not saying the South was good--I'm saying that the South being bad doesn't make the North automatically good. The lesser of two evils is still evil.

 

[Yuchi1]

The US managed to outlaw slavery. The Confederacy, never did - although according to the revisionists they were perpetually "about to".

When did that occur?

 

[NoahFence]

Ah. The last sinner to reform inherits all the guilt. If there had been a second secession, say Alabama held out after the rest of the Confederacy surrendered, would we now blame only Alabama for slavery? After all, they would have kept slavery longer.

Perhaps if the south as a whole stopped flying that goddamn flag, we wouldn't have the "North good South Bad" discussion.

 

[grunion]

Perhaps if the south as a whole stopped flying that goddamn flag, we wouldn't have the "North good South Bad" discussion.

I have seen the stars and bars on bumpers and lawns across this whole nation of ours. Unfortunately.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's not whether the USA or CSA had slavery first, it's that one side was trying to get rid of it while the other created a government explicitly to defend it.

Agreed. I guess I'm a stricter moralist than most because I don't excuse the North from slavery for fighting against it after more than a century of accepting it and profiting from it, then deciding late in the game that it was finally time to take a stand. It's good that they did (finally) fight it, but I just don't see handing out haloes for it in the circumstances.

 

[NoahFence]

I have seen the stars and bars on bumpers and lawns across this whole nation of ours. Unfortunately.

You're absolutely right. My bad.

It's an attitude.

 

[TragicMonkey]

I have seen the stars and bars on bumpers and lawns across this whole nation of ours. Unfortunately.

I saw more Confederate flags in Indiana than I did in Georgia. What's with that?

 

[DavidJames]

I saw more Confederate flags in Indiana than I did in Georgia. What's with that?

Indiana is a very conservative state, maybe the most conservative in the mid west.

Not that I'm saying conservatives are generally more likely to display the racist rag Confederate flag

 

[Mumbles]

When did that occur?

Uh, well over a century ago.

 

[Upchurch]

When did that occur?

Uh, well over a century ago.

1865, specifically.

 

[lobosrul]

What discussion? Nothing's been furthered. South bad, North good. Repeat a billion times, and wonder why some Southerners don't seem to like it. Must be their evil stupidity, what else could it be?

Huh? The discussion is about requesting a state to not display a symbol originally used by secessionist who fought a war over slavery. Nothing about the South as a region being bad. I'm originally from a seceding state myself.

 

[Mumbles]

Wait, rewind...

I can't handle the dogpile, ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the flag-fliers I know; maybe they're lying to me and they're secretly racist. If so then I object to their flying the flag for that reason. That will have to be good enough.

Did anyone say "secretly"?

No, it's that they're openly doing racist things. And if they they aren't white supremacists, then they should stop it.

 

[lobosrul]

Ah. The last sinner to reform inherits all the guilt. If there had been a second secession, say Alabama held out after the rest of the Confederacy surrendered, would we now blame only Alabama for slavery? After all, they would have kept slavery longer.

Agreed. I guess I'm a stricter moralist than most because I don't excuse the North from slavery for fighting against it after more than a century of accepting it and profiting from it, then deciding late in the game that it was finally time to take a stand. It's good that they did (finally) fight it, but I just don't see handing out haloes for it in the circumstances.

If you take that attitude then I guess just about the entire world should hold their head in shame because at some point their country accepted and profited from slavery. Who is saying America should be handed a halo exactly?

 

[TragicMonkey]

1865, specifically.

Funny that it wasn't 1861.

 

[pgwenthold]

I agree that "north good south bad" is a strawman.

How about "union good, confederacy bad"?

True that initially the north wasn't fighting to end slavery. They were fighting to preserve the union. Which fractured because the slave States tried to leave. Because they didn't have a majority any more, which was a threat against the continuance of slavery.

Damn union army, not letting the slave States leave the union.