South Carolina, tear down that flag!

[grunion]

Another irony is a bunch of people ordering those who celebrate rebellion to stop doing so, and expecting them to change.

Nobody is ordering any person to do anything. The movement we are discussing is a petition to the government to stop doing something.

 

[TragicMonkey]

Nobody is ordering any person to do anything. The movement we are discussing is a petition to the government to stop doing something.

I was referring to this thread itself, in which posters are ordering other posters to accept certain opinions.

 

[dudalb]

Because the cross had a long history and an important role in Western culture long before the KKK tried to co-opt it. And the KKK never had even a tiny fraction of the cultural reach that the various Christian churches had.

On the other hand, the swastika is only known to most Westerners as "the Nazi symbol". To most people, the connotations begin and end with Nazism.

The confederate flag has one major connotation... the confederacy, which committed treason in the cause of slavery.

This.
The Burning Cross was originally used in Scotland as a signal that a enemy was near and for the members of the Clan to arm and assemble,but that has been so corrupted in the US by the Klan that the original meaning is irrevelent.
That is why a proposol to revive the custom at the Highland Games in the US was voted down my a huge majority on the council in charge of them, because it was simply too corrupted to serve any useful purpose.
And this how routine of "But this is what it means to me" is silly. It's common usage and meaning that is important,and the Confederate flag means the defense of Slavery to the vast majority of people. Time to take it down from public buildings. (I am willing to make an exception for some historical sites,and of course if somebody wants to fly it from his private property that is his right,but it should not be flown over building were public business is done.

 

[Vortigern99]

I can't handle the dogpile, ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the flag-fliers I know; maybe they're lying to me and they're secretly racist. If so then I object to their flying the flag for that reason. That will have to be good enough.

 

[Yuchi1]

Perhaps, among the reason(s) for those (individuals/governments) that continue to fly the Saint Andrew's Cross battle flag consider the time elapsed since April, 1865 as merely....halftime...with the third quarter to commence at some point down the line?

 

[Checkmite]

You seem to be missing the point. Not everyone is as steeped in history as you lot. That they don't know the specific history of the Virginia battle flag doesn't make them horrible people. They've inherited the flag as a symbol of the South from their forebears for the last 5 - 7 generations. It didn't come with a history lesson explaining that only slavers and white supremacists used it prior to 1866.

I rather suspect that you may find the alleged use of the flag by so-called "non-racist" white southerners to symbolize some "heritage" that is distinct from the Confederacy and its ideals, is a significantly more recent idea than 1866. Do you honestly think people of that time chose to define their "heritage" by something that happened in the last year? Or in the last five, ten, or twenty years? The very word "heritage" implies something bequeathed by prior generations to the newest one.

 

[grunion]

I admire the optimism of both sides of this question. They both seem to think that at some iteration of the exchange 'is not!' 'is too!' resolution and agreement will spontaneously occur, despite having not done so for all the previous iterations. Will it be the billionth time? The trillionth? Who can say! But they each seem confident that it's coning soon, maybe just one more post away! Admirable!

Change happens.

 

[RandFan]

I can't handle the dogpile, ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the flag-fliers I know; maybe they're lying to me and they're secretly racist. If so then I object to their flying the flag for that reason. That will have to be good enough.

Just ignorant or apathetic to the plight of fellow citizens.

 

[pgwenthold]

Okay, they're ignorant. And...?

A couple years ago, I started a thread here about the confederate flag being sold that had the words "Heritage, not hate." Not to rehash it, but I want to know, if they are ignorant of the history of the flag, why would they need to deny that it is about hate and insist it is about heritage?

Moreover, if they are actually insisting it is about heritage, then they are supposed well-versed enough to tell us about the great heritage and how the flag represents that.

The fact that people use the "heritage not hate" apologetic belies the claim they are ignorant. That's not ignorance, that is denial.

 

[ponderingturtle]

I can't handle the dogpile, ladies and gentlemen. Perhaps I'm mistaken about the flag-fliers I know; maybe they're lying to me and they're secretly racist. If so then I object to their flying the flag for that reason. That will have to be good enough.

They could also not realize that they are racist. The question isn't about how they identify but how they treat people.

 

[pgwenthold]

This.
The Burning Cross was originally used in Scotland as a signal that a enemy was near and for the members of the Clan to arm and assemble,but that has been so corrupted in the US by the Klan that the original meaning is irrevelent.
That is why a proposol to revive the custom at the Highland Games in the US was voted down my a huge majority on the council in charge of them, because it was simply too corrupted to serve any useful purpose..

That is a really interesting story. Thanks for telling it.

 

[Aepervius]

Well it makes sense in india where the swastika is the other way around and they don't have much (if any) cultural association with nazi germany. On the other hand it is viewed very negatively, say , in germany even if you want to use the indian symbol.

Conversely, because of the values it represent locally for the oppressed culture (the slaves) and the quite clear values of racism it even holds for some, keeping the flag might be OK for private persons to hold on as a message to the others (free speech) but quite a big shame for the local government to pretend it more values beside racism. It is the epitome of racism the battle flag of those wanting to keep slavery. And IIRC it was used as a rally flag for those wanting "equal but separate" the local law. It is not a far away culture but a local very alive one used for segregation by some even less than 50-60 years ago. And as such it should be gone from flying from any governmental building (capitol, libraries, school etc...etc...). Stick it unflying in a confederate museum.

 

[RandFan]

I admire the optimism of both sides of this question. They both seem to think that at some iteration of the exchange 'is not!' 'is too!' resolution and agreement will spontaneously occur, despite having not done so for all the previous iterations. Will it be the billionth time? The trillionth? Who can say! But they each seem confident that it's coning soon, maybe just one more post away! Admirable!

It's a fair criticism. I cannot muster a riposte other than to say, after years of watching the hour hand on a mechanical clock, I've never seen it move.

 

[Aepervius]

I admire the optimism of both sides of this question. They both seem to think that at some iteration of the exchange 'is not!' 'is too!' resolution and agreement will spontaneously occur, despite having not done so for all the previous iterations. Will it be the billionth time? The trillionth? Who can say! But they each seem confident that it's coning soon, maybe just one more post away! Admirable!

It is an internet forum. We argue as entertainment , we are not so vain to think we can change the world. Do you ?

 

[RandFan]

Well it makes sense in india where the swastika is the other way around and they don't have much (if any) cultural association with nazi germany. On the other hand it is viewed very negatively, say , in germany even if you want to use the indian symbol.

Conversely, because of the values it represent locally for the oppressed culture (the slaves) and the quite clear values of racism it even holds for some, keeping the flag might be OK for private persons to hold on as a message to the others (free speech) but quite a big shame for the local government to pretend it more values beside racism. It is the epitome of racism the battle flag of those wanting to keep slavery. And IIRC it was used as a rally flag for those wanting "equal but separate" the local law. It is not a far away culture but a local very alive one used for segregation by some even less than 50-60 years ago. And as such it should be gone from flying from any governmental building (capitol, libraries, school etc...etc...). Stick it unflying in a confederate museum.

Fair point.

 

[RandFan]

Walmart, Sears, eBay to stop selling Confederate flag merchandise

 

[TragicMonkey]

It is an internet forum. We argue as entertainment , we are not so vain to think we can change the world. Do you ?

I'm certainly not vain enough to think I could stop an eternally recursive loop of bickering on this topic. Eventually the servers will run out of memory, and that will be the end of it.

 

[grunion]

The confederate flag has one major connotation... the confederacy, which committed treason in the cause of slavery.

..and Lynrd Skynrd. And Charlie Daniels.

 

[pgwenthold]

They could also not realize that they are racist. The question isn't about how they identify but how they treat people.

For example, what is the response of the heritage not hate crowd to your objection that it represents the WHITE heritage of the south? Insist that it counts black people, too? Insist that the black heritage doesn't matter?

 

[Aepervius]

I'm certainly not vain enough to think I could stop an eternally recursive loop of bickering on this topic. Eventually the servers will run out of memory, and that will be the end of it.

Nan. After that we reboot and start anew .