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South Carolina, tear down that flag!

Checkmite said:
Correct. You can have an opinion on either the flag or gun control, but it's not possible to have a position on both issues.
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I am in favor of taking down the Confederate Flag from public buildings (I am willing to grant some exemptions for historical sites) but am in favor of private gun ownership,with some restrictions.
Ironically, most of the guns I own I use in Civil War /Old West reanantments.
 
edited because in the time it took me to reply, it's all been said!
 
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Axiom_Blade said:
So, we've finally given up on talking about gun control? Is that the conclusion I can draw out of this? The best debate people can draw out of this is whether or not it's okay to fly a flag?
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You seem confused. Do you know what the subject of this thread is?
 
iknownothing said:
This.

Can't the non-racists find something to symbolize their love of Southern culture, other than a symbol that has always stood for the very worst aspects of that culture?
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But then how else will you know that their love of the culture of the area explicitly excludes blacks? A symbol for the region and its culture that includes blacks is clearly not important to anyone.
 
Vortigern99 said:
...who imbue the Confederate symbol with a different meaning than the one my interlocutors insist must rigidly attach to it because of its history.
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...Do me a favor, and think about this statement for a minute. Especially the last bit.
 
These social taboos are hard.

Vortigern99 said:
I've been trying to explain how a non-racist, non-hateful Southerner can fly the flag without the supremacist associations...
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Good point. Here are some more you can "explain" for me.

1.) How does a white guy like me use the "N" word in every day conversations without being thought a racist?

2.) How can I dress like a Nazi without the Nazi associations?

3.) How can I let strangers know that my Swastika regalia is to honor my Buddhist sympathies?

4.) How can I stare at a woman's breasts without her thinking I'm a pervert?
 
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Vortigern99 said:
The Cross is used by the KKK to symbolize white supremacy. But I don't see any outrage expressed when churches everywhere employ the same symbol to mean something else.
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Because the cross had a long history and an important role in Western culture long before the KKK tried to co-opt it. And the KKK never had even a tiny fraction of the cultural reach that the various Christian churches had.

On the other hand, the swastika is only known to most Westerners as "the Nazi symbol". To most people, the connotations begin and end with Nazism.

The confederate flag has one major connotation... the confederacy, which committed treason in the cause of slavery.
 
dudalb said:
ANd that is what amazes me about so many Neo Confederates:their total ignorance of the Civil War period. Most of them do not know Shiloh from Antietam...
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Well technically that's because the Confederacy only referred to these battles as Pittsburg Landing and Sharpsburg, respectively...

...but I know what you meant and I tend to agree. :)
 
Cleon said:
...Do me a favor, and think about this statement for a minute. Especially the last bit.
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You seem to be missing the point. Not everyone is as steeped in history as you lot. That they don't know the specific history of the Virginia battle flag doesn't make them horrible people. They've inherited the flag as a symbol of the South from their forebears for the last 5 - 7 generations. It didn't come with a history lesson explaining that only slavers and white supremacists used it prior to 1866. Between what it meant then, and what it means now , there are distinctions that my interlocutors seem unwilling to make.
 
Vortigern99 said:
You seem to be missing the point. Not everyone is as steeped in history as you lot. That they don't know the specific history of the Virginia battle flag doesn't make them horrible people. They've inherited the flag as a symbol of the South from their forebears for the last 5 - 7 generations. It didn't come with a history lesson explaining that only slavers and white supremacists used it prior to 1866. Between what it meant then, and what it means now , there are distinctions that my interlocutors seem unwilling to make.
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Which only bolsters my opinion that those who fly the flag are either ignorant or racist.
 
Vortigern99 said:
You seem to be missing the point. Not everyone is as steeped in history as you lot. That they don't know the specific history of the Virginia battle flag doesn't make them horrible people. They've inherited the flag as a symbol of the South from their forebears for the last 5 - 7 generations. It didn't come with a history lesson explaining that only slavers and white supremacists used it prior to 1866. Between what it meant then, and what it means now , there are distinctions that my interlocutors seem unwilling to make.
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I don't need to know the history of the "N" word to know not to use it. We live in a society. We ought not freak out over every slight but on the other hand we ought to be able to figure out where the lines in society are that we ought not cross.
 
Vortigern99 said:
You seem to be missing the point. Not everyone is as steeped in history as you lot. That they don't know the specific history of the Virginia battle flag doesn't make them horrible people. They've inherited the flag as a symbol of the South from their forebears for the last 5 - 7 generations. It didn't come with a history lesson explaining that only slavers and white supremacists used it prior to 1866. Between what it meant then, and what it means now , there are distinctions that my interlocutors seem unwilling to make.
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And how it was primarily used by those supporting the continued apartheid status of the south would never be a thought they would question. It would be like asking what message their use would send to a black person, that would clearly never occur to them either, why should they care what a black person would think?
 
Vortigern99 said:
I've been trying to explain how a non-racist, non-hateful Southerner can fly the flag without the supremacist associations you lot inextricably attach to it..
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That's not completely true. We also allowed that they could be stupid and/or ignorant. I don't buy the argument they are ignorant (I mean, if they know enough to argue to that's heritage not hate, they are familiar with the issue) and although you insist they are not stupid, it's not established, especially if they actually believe the arguments that you are peddling for them.
 
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