Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[carbonjam72]

So true!

In addition to claiming to find animal blood in the downstairs apartment, the police also claimed that early reports of blood found on Filomena's broken window eventually also turned out to be animal blood, but they never said which type of animal blood it was?

Too many coincidences – over many years of living I've never seen any blood on any of my windows, and I've always had a cat or two around (house & feral), and no cat has ever bloodied up my house - pee, poop & barf, YES, but no blood.

Yet, animal blood was (supposedly) found in both apartments the day after a rather bloody murder?

In any event, this is one of the 1st UK accounts of the case out of Rome mentioning blood on Filomena's window:




Granted, as to be expected that early story had many factual errors. Nevertheless, clearly the police quickly found semen on the pillow, blood on Filomena's window, and African hairs on Meredith's duvet and purse, and those items were quickly suppressed (or spun or ignored), among many other evidentiary items, likely since all these items related to Guede instead of to Amanda & Raffaele, and seemingly the police & Mignini were trying to reduce Guede to being a bit-player in their sexual fantasy murder:




I've seen many 'Guilters' mock the American press coverage of this case, and while American media can get incredibly vapid w/ tunnel-vision when the story involves politics, American media actually did a vastly superior job reporting this case than did either the Italian or UK media – e.g., this 2008 story had it 100% right:

Hi Ken,

I followed the to the seattle times, but couldn't find the quote you provided in the article. Did you mistakenly put your opinion into the article space? The article itself seems unnervingly objective, and doesn't appear to take a position, but only regurgitate the know facts. Here's the quote from your post again, the highlighted part I couldn't find in the article -


Quote:
Italian prosecutors seek murder indictment against Amanda Knox
published July 11, 2008

The authorities, led by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, should have realized their mistake: It wasn’t a sex game gone wrong but a burglary gone wrong. Local thief and burglar Rudy Guede had broken-in and murdered Meredith Kercher when she arrived home and found him inside her house. But the authorities, who had boldly announced to the media that the crime was solved, refused to admit their mistake. They simply pulled Patrick Lumumba out of their fantasy and plugged in Rudy Guede. They then attempted to find evidence to support their theory and ignored, suppressed and destroyed evidence that didn’t. At the center of the prosecution’s fantasy was a violent sex orgy involving the three defendants and Meredith.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...t-amanda-knox/

 

[carbonjam72]

Hi Carbonjam72,
The hottie that is in my avatar is my new chick,
28, luvs to make love, anytime.

Lately I've been spillin' a lot of that stuff that Dr. Stefanoni wanted tested,
it just goes everywhere.

There should be more than just a small stain if a young dude ejaculated,
in my experienced opinion, hahaha.


As most males don't just ejaculate in 1 small spot,
surely Guede too, if it was his, shot his j*zz everywhere.

I doubt the stain on the edge of the pillow was stepped in by Guede's Nike's,
the stuff woulda been smeared all around,
instead it is outlined well enough to also see a connecting trail between the 2 bigger stains.

For he stepped in 1 of these puddles with his left foot -(I believe?) sneaker then left the wet imprint on the left side of Meredith's body as she lay dying or dead on her back, with her left hand upraised for some reason.


But I believe it was not the stain on the edge of the pillow case,
which was IIRC, found below and between Miss Kercher's sprawled open legs...

It's not poor, poor Rudy.
It's Poor, Poor Meredith.

Congrats Randy, I must say you stepped up in the world from your previous avatars, much easier on the eyes.

So question is what reason is there to believe the semen stain that Rudy stepped on when it was wet, came from anywhere else but there and then when he stepped in it? And, how could anyone else have been in the room at that time, when there is only one set of foot prints in Meredith's wet blood?

Mach said Amanda and Raf "immediately ran out of the room", to explain away the lack of extra footsteps in wet blood we would expect to see if there had been more people. And as crazy as Mach's scenario is, at least he's accepting and trying to incorporate the absence of additional footprints in Meredith's wet blood when he suggests Rudy was not alone.

Whereas your suggestion that there might have been a second person with Rudy in the murder room, if that's what you're suggesting, doesn't appear to me to take that fact of only one set of footprints in wet blood into account.

Now go spend some time with your new girl and don't feel obligated to respond, just let us hang here and gnash our teeth!

 

[carbonjam72]

1. My attempt at humor was too weak. My imagination is too limited in terms of the events leading to the deposit of the putative semen. The dry putative semen stain is a yellow color not too different in color from that of the white pillow among all the blood. Perhaps Rudy anticipated that the putative semen would be missed among the blood and other matter on the pillow. Or maybe the putative semen is from someone else. I remember someone offering a nasty speculation that one of the male police officers had left it after the discovery of Meredith's body, and that's why it was never tested, but I find that hard to accept as likely.
2. Indeed. And it would be a relatively small amount that had been stepped in. The other deposit, which appears not to be stepped on, is larger, I think.

3. You don't see the yellow partial rings in the Crimescope photo, as posted by RW? Perhaps you should try looking at the images in http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/
where there are additional images and explanation.

Now I never thought the Perugia police were the A-team of forensic investigators, but leaving a deposit of semen at a sex crime murder scene? Seriously?

 

[Numbers]

Congrats Randy, I must say you stepped up in the world from your previous avatars, much easier on the eyes.

So question is what reason is there to believe the semen stain that Rudy stepped on when it was wet, came from anywhere else but there and then when he stepped in it? And, how could anyone else have been in the room at that time, when there is only one set of foot prints in Meredith's wet blood?

Mach said Amanda and Raf "immediately ran out of the room", to explain away the lack of extra footsteps in wet blood we would expect to see if there had been more people. And as crazy as Mach's scenario is, at least he's accepting and trying to incorporate the absence of additional footprints in Meredith's wet blood when he suggest Rudy was not alone.

Whereas your suggestion that there might have been a second person with Rudy in the murder room, if that's what your suggesting, doesn't appear to me to take that fact of only one set of footprints in wet blood into account.

Now go spend some time with your new girl and don't feel obligated to respond, just let us hang here and gnash our teeth!

Could the other person have been treading air? Or had a large enough helium balloon to be airborne?

Most likely all the putative semen is from Guede and the police and prosecution, to minimize his involvement and construct the wrongful case against Knox and Sollecito, did not even initiate mention of the putative semen stain on the pillow in court. It was brought out by the defense, IIUC.

 

[Dan O.]

Hey, I try. Not all of us have our own private vault of Kercher murder information.

FWIW, I considered that you meant Kercher, but it seemed to require a trip downstairs after an initial attack and then a trip upstairs where she was mortally wounded.

Hmm, maybe your were implying that she was initially attacked downstairs? Regardless wouldn't the kind of wounds she sustained have been bleeding so badly that whichever wound came first, the walk upstairs, if it were possible at all, would have left a serious trail of blood. Were there any incidental wounds that might have bled slowly enough for this theory to be plausible? And then of course, it doesn't explain why the PLE would have hidden the fact of Kercher's blood downstairs.

ETA: I just realized that my speculation based on the common style of American bedroom locks is flawed, if the door was locked. They can't be locked from the outside with normal methods, although I suspect that the small screw driver trick that can be used to unlock them can also be used to lock them. But maybe the house was setup for roommates and thus all doors had exterior style locks installed on them. ETA2: If it was an exterior style lock it could probably have been locked before the intruder exited and then after it was closed it would be locked. ETA3: My apologies. I just realized that some of the discussion has implied old fashioned style locks that you can see through. So I guess that's the kind of lock we're talking about.

There is kind of a standard europian inter-room mortise style lock set. These locks have a slip latch operated by the handle so you can push them closed. They also have a deadbolt operated by the key from either side of the door. There are only a small number of key shapes for these locks. The water closet key is the simplest shape of a small square.

It is not necessarily Meredith's blood downstairs. It is possible that this really is cats blood.

 

[Grinder]

1. My attempt at humor was too weak. My imagination is too limited in terms of the events leading to the deposit of the putative semen. The dry putative semen stain is a yellow color not too different in color from that of the white pillow among all the blood. Perhaps Rudy anticipated that the putative semen would be missed among the blood and other matter on the pillow. Or maybe the putative semen is from someone else. I remember someone offering a nasty speculation that one of the male police officers had left it after the discovery of Meredith's body, and that's why it was never tested, but I find that hard to accept as likely.

I'm guessing that you haven't reviewed the Skype call. He refers to the media reports of "sperm" found and says it wasn't his because he never had an orgasm. So he was under the impression the police had found semen yet he denied it could have been his at a time that he could have made up a story that fit the finding which to me means he forgot or he didn't leave the donation.

 

[Ken Dine]

Hi Ken,

I followed the to the seattle times, but couldn't find the quote you provided in the article. Did you mistakenly put your opinion into the article space? The article itself seems unnervingly objective, and doesn't appear to take a position, but only regurgitate the know facts. Here's the quote from your post again, the highlighted part I couldn't find in the article -


Quote:
Italian prosecutors seek murder indictment against Amanda Knox
published July 11, 2008

The authorities, led by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, should have realized their mistake: It wasn’t a sex game gone wrong but a burglary gone wrong. Local thief and burglar Rudy Guede had broken-in and murdered Meredith Kercher when she arrived home and found him inside her house. But the authorities, who had boldly announced to the media that the crime was solved, refused to admit their mistake. They simply pulled Patrick Lumumba out of their fantasy and plugged in Rudy Guede. They then attempted to find evidence to support their theory and ignored, suppressed and destroyed evidence that didn’t. At the center of the prosecution’s fantasy was a violent sex orgy involving the three defendants and Meredith.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-...t-amanda-knox/

Hi,

I'm sorry, sloppy CC&P by me. I got that from this page, but only the last portion (w/ bold emphasis) was apparently paraphrasing that 2008 article:

The authorities, led by prosecutor Giuliano Mignini, should have realized their mistake: It wasn’t a sex game gone wrong but a burglary gone wrong. Local thief and burglar Rudy Guede had broken-in and murdered Meredith Kercher when she arrived home and found him inside her house. But the authorities, who had boldly announced to the media that the crime was solved, refused to admit their mistake. They simply pulled Patrick Lumumba out of their fantasy and plugged in Rudy Guede. They then attempted to find evidence to support their theory and ignored, suppressed and destroyed evidence that didn’t. At the center of the prosecution’s fantasy was a violent sex orgy involving the three defendant’s and Meredith.[5]

http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/

This could be the portion of their Footnote #5 they were using from the article:

Prosecutors say the three strangled and stabbed Kercher, according to a court document that notified defense lawyers last month that the investigation was closed. The document said Guede engaged in sexual violence against Kercher with the help of Knox and Sollecito.

According to the prosecutors, Knox and Sollecito also tried to make it look like the apartment was burglarized to cover up the crime.

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2008046348_webknox11m.html

Obviously, the 2008 story was not an early indictment of Mignini as I had alleged and the story was instead actually fairly straight reporting for its 2008 time frame.

 

[Grinder]

Could the other person have been treading air? Or had a large enough helium balloon to be airborne?

Hahahaahaha. I think this is a version of a PG joke.

Most likely all the putative semen is from Guede and the police and prosecution, to minimize his involvement and construct the wrongful case against Knox and Sollecito, did not even initiate mention of the putative semen stain on the pillow in court. It was brought out by the defense, IIUC.

Why then did they produce his DNA from inside Meredith? Why not just find the evidence consistent with Rudi helping Meredith?

The idea that his semen would change the case seems folly.

 

[Numbers]

I'm guessing that you haven't reviewed the Skype call. He refers to the media reports of "sperm" found and says it wasn't his because he never had an orgasm. So he was under the impression the police had found semen yet he denied it could have been his at a time that he could have made up a story that fit the finding which to me means he forgot or he didn't leave the donation.

Guede may or may not be telling the truth, Grinder. Perhaps he thought it would be incriminating for him to admit to having had sex or masturbated and having ejaculated on a pillow under Meredith's body. Or maybe he forgot. But since there is no publicly available information on DNA testing of the deposit, it is guess work to identify who was the donor. Guede's stories have contained many dubious statements and I feel no need to decipher every statement of a proven liar and rightfully convicted murderer; I would prefer objective evidence from unbiased forensic testing.

My only certainty is that it was not Raffaele, since I assume that such an incriminating piece of evidence would have been used if it existed.

If it was someone other than Guede, that person seems to have left no other sign of being in the murder room.

If you have taken the time to visit the site http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/, you would see images with arrows drawn to the partial rings of the shoe print in putative semen, which partial rings you had stated you had trouble seeing.

 

[Numbers]

....

1. Why then did they produce his DNA from inside Meredith? Why not just find the evidence consistent with Rudi helping Meredith?

2. The idea that his semen would change the case seems folly.

1. Rudi Guede had admitted to digital sexual contact with Meredith. The prosecution presentation on DNA (allegedly only male epithelial cell DNA in the vaginal swab) supported his statement.

2. Guede's semen would show that his statements were untrue and that would cast doubt on his veracity in general. It would impeach his statements, and the prosecution wished to use his later pre-trial statements against Knox and Sollecito. So the prosecution did not wish to impeach his veracity.

 

[Grinder]

Guede may or may not be telling the truth, Grinder. Perhaps he thought it would be incriminating for him to admit to having had sex or masturbated and having ejaculated on a pillow under Meredith's body. Or maybe he forgot. But since there is no publicly available information on DNA testing of the deposit, it is guess work to identify who was the donor. Guede's stories have contained many dubious statements and I feel no need to decipher every statement of a proven liar and rightfully convicted murderer; I would prefer objective evidence from unbiased forensic testing.

He admitted having sexual contact. He was made aware that semen was found. I would say that most everyone here assumes that he lied about everything he needed to and told the truth, for example time of death, when possible. He could have come up with a tale that fit the semen he had left behind yet he didn't.

Can you think of another detail he obviously didn't cover with his account. I'm not saying there isn't one but I can't think of it. So he sits in Germany reading about the murder and works out his story that he first shares on the Skype. He thinks they have found semen yet he denies leaving it. He denies Filomena's window being broken and says Meredith was fully clothed. There was early confusion about what window was broken as some reports made it to be Meredith's window and the door locked from inside.

My only certainty is that it was not Raffaele, since I assume that such an incriminating piece of evidence would have been used if it existed.

Why didn't they find Raf's for the perfect frame?

If it was someone other than Guede, that person seems to have left no other sign of being in the murder room.

Do you believe the ICSI would be telling us about the fourth man? IIRC there was DNA and fingerprints that weren't matched to anyone.

If you have taken the time to visit the site http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/failed-sexual-assault-investigation/, you would see images with arrows drawn to the partial rings of the shoe print in putative semen, which partial rings you had stated you had trouble seeing.

While they aren't perfectly clear to me that isn't a disputed point.

 

[Grinder]

1. Rudi Guede had admitted to digital sexual contact with Meredith. The prosecution presentation on DNA (allegedly only male epithelial cell DNA in the vaginal swab) supported his statement.

He said oral sex.

2. Guede's semen would show that his statements were untrue and that would cast doubt on his veracity in general. It would impeach his statements, and the prosecution wished to use his later pre-trial statements against Knox and Sollecito. So the prosecution did not wish to impeach his veracity.

The media reported they had found semen. He knew that. He hadn't put his story out before the Skype. Why would he have covered the finding with a story?

No one believed his story so why would the semen being his change anything?

 

[Numbers]

1. He said oral sex.



The media reported they had found semen. He knew that. He hadn't put his story out before the Skype. Why would he have covered the finding with a story?

2. No one believed his story so why would the semen being his change anything?

1. I didn't know that. I thought from my reading he claimed mutual digital simulation in the living room. And what difference does it make? Did the authorities do an oral test for semen or non-Meredith DNA on Meredith's body?

Do you have a citation?

2. The prosecution believed - or wished to use - his story and were using the judgment of the fast-track trial of Guede against Knox and Sollecito. That would include his pre-trial statements to the police and prosecution. The prosecution wish to marshal as much "evidence" as possible against Knox and Sollecito.

Please provide a citation for "No one believed his story".

 

[Grinder]

1. I didn't know that. I thought from my reading he claimed mutual digital simulation in the living room. And what difference does it make? Did the authorities do an oral test for semen or non-Meredith DNA on Meredith's body?

Do you have a citation?

You haven't read his Skype or his German diary have you?

2. The prosecution believed - or wished to use - his story and were using the judgment of the fast-track trial of Guede against Knox and Sollecito. That would include his pre-trial statements to the police and prosecution. The prosecution wish to marshal as much "evidence" as possible against Knox and Sollecito.

Please provide a citation for "No one believed his story".

You think someone believed that the door bell rang and someone came in and murdered Meredith while he sat on the toilet and then fought off the blond Italian guy?

ETA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAq7c7SjxYA&feature=youtu.be

at 4:44 mark he says we just did oral stuff.

 

[Numbers]

You haven't read his Skype or his German diary have you?

2. The prosecution believed - or wished to use - his story and were using the judgment of the fast-track trial of Guede against Knox and Sollecito. That would include his pre-trial statements to the police and prosecution. The prosecution wish to marshal as much "evidence" as possible against Knox and Sollecito.

Please provide a citation for "No one believed his story".

You think someone believed that the door bell rang and someone came in and murdered Meredith while he sat on the toilet and then fought off the blond Italian guy?[/QUOTE]

1. I have not read his German diary. I read some or all of his Skype about a year ago. I read the transcript (partial?) of a pre-trial interview of Guede by Mignini and Napoleoni. Mignini frequently led the questions.

2. You didn't provide a citation.

ETA: Frankly, Grinder, I don't see your point. You have not shown that Guede was not the source of the putative semen stain. You have not shown that there was someone else participating in the murder/rape of Meredith. You have only shown that Guede may or may not have truthfully accounted for depositing the semen.

There is a partial shoe print of a sole consistent with Guede's shoes in putative semen on the pillow that was found under Meredith's body. The straight-forward conclusion is that this shoe was worn by Guede at at about the time the seeming semen was ejaculated, but there could be other possibilities.

Only forensic analysis of that putative semen stain would provide potentially accurate information, and the Italian authorities choose not to make such disclosure (if indeed they did the testing). I have explained why I believe they chose not to disclose; you may have your own opinions.

 

[Grinder]

You think someone believed that the door bell rang and someone came in and murdered Meredith while he sat on the toilet and then fought off the blond Italian guy?

1. I have not read his German diary. I read some or all of his Skype about a year ago. I read the transcript (partial?) of a pre-trial interview of Guede by Mignini and Napoleoni. Mignini frequently led the questions.

2. You didn't provide a citation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JAq7c7SjxYA&feature=youtu.be

4:44 mark for Oral sex remark.

Are you trying being funny again with 2? Do you have a citation that anyone believed his account?

 

[Grinder]

Numbers, Rudi made up a story to account for everything that he knew about from reading the accounts and of course being there. He admitted to having oral sex. He had the story of the toilet because he knew he had used the toilet. He told of looking from Filomena's room to cover and evidence of being there. He went to the detail of drinking from the bottle of juice. He covered why he was there. He detailed that she was dressed when he left. He had a murderer come and go with a sharp knife like a scalpel.

Yet knowing they had found semen he didn't make that part of his story, why?

 

[Numbers]

Numbers, Rudi made up a story to account for everything that he knew about from reading the accounts and of course being there. He admitted to having oral sex. He had the story of the toilet because he knew he had used the toilet. He told of looking from Filomena's room to cover and evidence of being there. He went to the detail of drinking from the bottle of juice. He covered why he was there. He detailed that she was dressed when he left. He had a murderer come and go with a sharp knife like a scalpel.

Yet knowing they had found semen he didn't make that part of his story, why?

Why did he murder Meredith? He didn't attack Del Prato and the men assisting her. If Meredith entered while Guede was in the flat, why didn't he simply turn himself in to her? They must have been on a date after all, but someone else came in and murdered Meredith. Maybe his story about what happened at Meredith's is to be believed after all.

Especially since there was no public disclosure by the Italian police or prosecution of the donor of the (putative) semen.

Obviously, Guede is thus a very credible individual, since his probable lie or failure to account for an objective fact is backed up by the police/prosecution failure to account for an objective fact.

(Warning: There may be elements of satire in the above statements.)

 

[Grinder]

Why did he murder Meredith? He didn't attack Del Prato and the men assisting her. If Meredith entered while Guede was in the flat, why didn't he simply turn himself in to her? They must have been on a date after all, but someone else came in and murdered Meredith. Maybe his story about what happened at Meredith's is to be believed after all.

Especially since there was no public disclosure by the Italian police or prosecution of the donor of the (putative) semen.

Obviously, Guede is thus a very credible individual, since his probable lie or failure to account for an objective fact is backed up by the police/prosecution failure to account for an objective fact.

(Warning: There may be elements of satire in the above statements.)

Hysterical.

The question remains with his covering so much of what he knew was or would be found why didn't he have the semen covered in his story?

My guess is that you have no explanation and therefore resort to what you call satire.

My only explanation is that he knew he hadn't left it. It could be from before if it wasn't wet at the time of the murder. I don't recall the defense making the point that the tread of the shoe print proved the timing. The Massei court didn't test it because it couldn't be dated. Hellmann didn't test it either.

I sure don't remember a huge outcry by the defense that it was dated. Do you have anything from the defense that claims the dated shoe print?

 

[Dan O.]

...

See http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ar.b.20025/pdf (good review),

Sex estimation using anthropometry of feet and footprints in a Western Australian population. Forensic Science International 2013;231402)1-6. Naomi Hemy, Ambika Flavel, Nur-Intaniah Ishak, Daniel Franklin
Reliability of a two-dimensional footprint measurement approach Science & Justice.2010 50(3):113-118. Sarah Reel, Simon Rouse, Wesley Vernon, Patrick Doherty

ETA no idea why the frown appeared!

The in your post is the forum code for a frown (a leftover from the days of ASCII only text).

There is a checkbox under the edit window to "Disable smilies in text" that will prevent the automatic translation.