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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Yeah, ok. You're not looking for a conversation. You're just trolling, now.
Wrong. I'm trying to discuss the two cases I introduced above. You are trying to discuss something else. Am I trolling for not wanting to discuss something else?

Do you have any thoughts regarding the missing initials on the three shells and the CE-399 bullet introduced as 'evidence' by the FBI in the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

If so, I'm all ears. If not, well ...
 
Wrong. I'm trying to discuss the two cases I introduced above. You are trying to discuss something else. Am I trolling for not wanting to discuss something else?

You are trolling for claiming that I want to discuss something else without demonstrating it.

Do you have any thoughts regarding the missing initials on the three shells and the CE-399 bullet introduced as 'evidence' by the FBI in the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

Yes: it's not very interesting, relevant or meaningful. You'll have to find a better "hole" in the history books.
 
Wrong. I'm trying to discuss the two cases I introduced above. You are trying to discuss something else. Am I trolling for not wanting to discuss something else?

Do you have any thoughts regarding the missing initials on the three shells and the CE-399 bullet introduced as 'evidence' by the FBI in the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

If so, I'm all ears. If not, well ...

Do you find that the presence or absence of initials means that Oswald didn't shoot JFK?

Do you have any thoughts of your own?
 
No. I have stated that I believe that there was a cover up. But, before I go in to that I have to establish that the 'evidence' in this two particular cases is not the 'evidence' that it is supposed to be.

After that, step two, is to look in to (which I have) possible explanations for this and after that, the most probable explanation/s. As I said, I strongly believe there was a cover up but I'll take it one step at a time, all in due course.



But, you can not assume that before looking into the details. How would sufficient evidence for a cover up look like if you were in charge?

What would you hypothetically accept?

If that's the case from your pov, why not just state flat out what your particular theory is, and why is it necessary for evidence to have been tampered with for your theory to be valid?

Unfounded leap of faith on your part that the best explanation is conspiracy rather than happenstance, incompetence and/or incorrect recollection or perception.

Where's a cover-up? LHO, LHO on his jobsite, LHO's rifle, dead POTUS, wounded Governor, LHO's wheelgun, dead DPD officer, LHO capture w/ his wheelgun in hand.

If you would like to provide a coherent explanation taking into account the known evidence, please carry on, but attempting to poke holes in the established record while asserting that some unstated "cover-up" must be in play isn't proof of anything.
 
I have seen this 'scenario' before in regards to archaeological fringe. Instead of trying to prove that the G1 Giza pyramid was made by x for y reason with z technique they find they must first demand that you accept the 'fact' that the orthodox position is wrong THEN they are willing to put forth their dribble of weaker assumptions and non-evidence.

They do so as their evidence fails against the orthodox position so the only way to proceed is to knock away the existing position before venturing forth.
 
Oh a question: When was the issue about the markings on the bullets first raised?

If it is so important why didn't the evil conspiracy simply fix the oversight?
 
Oh a question: When was the issue about the markings on the bullets first raised?

If it is so important why didn't the evil conspiracy simply fix the oversight?

Standard example of anomaly hunting, and "connect the dots" as a secondary manifestation of "investigation" technique as practiced by conspiracists.
 
You are trolling for claiming that I want to discuss something else without demonstrating it.
You just did, in your next sentence ...
Yes: it's not very interesting, relevant or meaningful. You'll have to find a better "hole" in the history books.
When I find something "not very interesting, relevant or meaningful", usually I get bored and move on to something else.
 
Wrong. I'm trying to discuss the two cases I introduced above.

No, you're trying to dismiss the conventional narrative by pitting an insignificant detail against your made-up standards. Anomaly-hunting is neither science nor history unless you can provide a better answer to the questions it raises.

You are trying to discuss something else. Am I trolling for not wanting to discuss something else?

Your evidence has been thoroughly discussed. You simply don't want to consider that the problem with the evidence is not with the evidence itself but with your assumptions about the evidence.

The reason you desperately want to avoid meta-discussion is that meta-discussion reveals the shell game that is practically every conspiracy theory. Your notion of staying on topic is a thin veneer over your desire to keep the discussion within the narrow framework you've constructed for it, a framework that all but ensures victory because it hides the application of the double standard.

The two-step process whereby the convention narrative has to meet an absurdly high contrived standard of proof, then the alternative only has to be not-impossible, is not how the real world works. It's certainly not how rational skepticism works. In a rational skeptic's approach, we simply pit two hypotheses against each other -- which one explains the most observations while requiring the least speculation, Hypothesis A or Hypothesis B?

You should think very carefully about why you frantically avoid such an even-ground analysis. It's equivalent to the shell-game player not lifting up all the shells and showing his hands.

Do you have any thoughts regarding the missing initials on the three shells and the CE-399 bullet introduced as 'evidence' by the FBI in the investigation of the assassination of JFK?

Yep, human error explains it with a lot less intellectual strain than some vague handwaving toward a coverup theory you're too afraid to let anyone see.

If so, I'm all ears. If not, well ...

You're only ears when you think you can convince someone to play your shell game. It's the same shell game that every conspiracy theorist has played, in the JFK case for well over 50 years. Like the nominal shell game, the purpose of a conspiracy theory isn't to find the pea under the shell, but to dupe someone into playing so that the game runner can take advantage of him simply for having played.
 
I watched the video. I don't get it.

None of this suggests a conspiracy, and none of this proves LHO didn't shoot.

Again, let's pretend someone else did the shooting, why use a different rifle? And if you're going to use a different rifle then why not make sure LHO had the same rifle model?

Then if you're going to make a switch, then wouldn't you go the extra mile to maintain chain of evidence? There was no guarantee Oswald was going to be killed a couple days later, and there'd be a trial to contend with.

The realistic answer here is that there were different standards for evidence handling in 1963, and I suspect the confusion, the multiple agencies involved, and the near circus environment contributed to a long list of simple mistakes. I'm not seeing anything here that would have gotten me excited back in my JFK Assassination CT-Loon days at all.
 
If that's the case from your pov, why not just state flat out what your particular theory is, and why is it necessary for evidence to have been tampered with for your theory to be valid?
Because, first I have to show that the 'evidence' actually is tampered with. After that I have to show why it is tampered with.

At the moment I focus on two of the most critical cases of evidence tampering, three empty shells and the "magic" bullet CE-399. If this evidence is planted/fabricated it has to be for a reason.


Unfounded leap of faith on your part that the best explanation is conspiracy rather than happenstance, incompetence and/or incorrect recollection or perception.
No, you misquoted me. I wrote:
After that, step two, is to look in to (which I have) possible explanations for this and after that, the most probable explanation/s.
"Looking in to" is the opposite of "leap of faith."


Where's a cover-up? LHO, LHO on his jobsite, LHO's rifle, dead POTUS, wounded Governor, LHO's wheelgun, dead DPD officer, LHO capture w/ his wheelgun in hand.
What? I'm focusing on two of the most critical instances of evidence of tampering with the evidence. Are you suggesting that I quit doing that and start focusing on other instances of obvious evidence tampering?


If you would like to provide a coherent explanation taking into account the known evidence, please carry on, but attempting to poke holes in the established record while asserting that some unstated "cover-up" must be in play isn't proof of anything.
Are there unknown evidence in the investigation of the assassination?
 
You certainly are.
But how about answering Jay's detailed questions which I note you have studiously avoided doing?

Jay has that effect on CTists- he provokes from either silence or sputters.

Try this experiment- ask a creationist to define his "creator" in terms other than the effects he attributes to him. He can't- a creationist's deity is nothing more than a vague but satisfying catch-all to harbor all doubts. Same with CTists, their deity is a conspiracy which is never any better established than by their (usually ignorant) doubts about the "official" narrative; if it weren't for that narrative, there would be no CT in opposition at all. To define either a deity or a conspiracy solely by the effects/qualities you attribute to it is to establish a mirror only by reflection- it is only what it does.
 
"Looking in to" is the opposite of "leap of faith."

A pity that you don't have the courage to address JayUtah's assessment of your motivations and methods. You've already leaped to your conclusion that a shot or shots came from the front and that unnamed conspirators engaged in covering up... something. You run away from answering what that something is as you run away from naming the alleged conspirators. That is the opposite of "looking in to" [sic]. The phrase you are struggling to find is "just asking questions", the CTists friend.
 
Because, first I have to show that the 'evidence' actually is tampered with. After that I have to show why it is tampered with.

At the moment I focus on two of the most critical cases of evidence tampering, three empty shells and the "magic" bullet CE-399. If this evidence is planted/fabricated it has to be for a reason.



No, you misquoted me. I wrote:

"Looking in to" is the opposite of "leap of faith."



What? I'm focusing on two of the most critical instances of evidence of tampering with the evidence. Are you suggesting that I quit doing that and start focusing on other instances of obvious evidence tampering?





Are there unknown evidence in the investigation of the assassination?

I have the impression that you're trying to work backwards from the conclusion you came to on the assassination and you're trying desperately to shoehorn the evidence into a configuration (planted/fabricated) that supports your theory.

Whatever your theory may be, if it simultaneously requires both conspiracy and human perfection to be valid, you're probably looking in the wrong direction.
 
I have the impression that you're trying to work backwards from the conclusion you came to on the assassination and you're trying desperately to shoehorn the evidence into a configuration (planted/fabricated) that supports your theory.
No. I believed that the official verdict of Oswald as the lone assassin of JFK was on the whole correct. Since then I've read through most of the litteratur for and against this conclusion and are now of the opinion that it was a cover up and that Oswald probably told the truth. He was "just a patsy."


Whatever your theory may be, if it simultaneously requires both conspiracy and human perfection to be valid, you're probably looking in the wrong direction.
Where do I talk of a conspiracy? Where do I talk of human perfection? These are your conclusions, not mine.

I do not know who killed JFK. If a person get convicted of murder and later found innocent on new evidence, let's say DNA-tests, do we have to know who the real killer is before we set the innocent free?

There are no DNA-tests in the Oswald case, but all the alleged 'evidence' are tampered with in order to convince the public of his guilt. The "magic" bullet, the three empty shells, the Carcano short rifle, fingerprints, the paper bag, different testimonies regarding his whereabouts and on and on and ...

I have to start somewhere and I start with the bullet and the shells, mind you.
 
No. I believed that the official verdict of Oswald as the lone assassin of JFK was on the whole correct. Since then I've read through most of the litteratur for and against this conclusion and are now of the opinion that it was a cover up and that Oswald probably told the truth. He was "just a patsy."

So basically you're saying that all the experts and relevant people are wrong and ignorants who make up crazy theories are right.
 
No. I believed that the official verdict of Oswald as the lone assassin of JFK was on the whole correct. Since then I've read through most of the litteratur for and against this conclusion and are now of the opinion that it was a cover up and that Oswald probably told the truth. He was "just a patsy."
If he were a patsy, would he know that he was a patsy?

Where do I talk of a conspiracy?
This has already been explained to you - it's based on your belief that there was a cover-up. What you're basing that on is anyone's guess since you haven't had the courage to expand on it. I suspect you're relying on one book on the subject or watched a few hundred YouTube videos to get your belief.
 
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