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Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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No, the original statement by Dougm was that police found no evidence of a clean up.

I pointed out, unless they test within eight hours they could not definitively say one way or the other.

Why don't you simply state in detail what exactly you think the evidence for a cleanup is? We haven't seen any evidence.

Once we know what your argument for a cleanup is based on, we can have a proper debate.
 
Why don't you simply state in detail what exactly you think the evidence for a cleanup is? We haven't seen any evidence.

Once we know what your argument for a cleanup is based on, we can have a proper debate.

Much like Massei things they wanted to find weren't there so they must have been cleaned away.
 
Why don't you simply state in detail what exactly you think the evidence for a cleanup is? We haven't seen any evidence.

Once we know what your argument for a cleanup is based on, we can have a proper debate.

<snip>


Hey, less than 10 days to go before the motivation report is due. Hope our translators are ready.

By the way, anyone care to guess how many pages the ISC motivation report will be?

My guess is 150 pages. A little more than Hellman, to account for the chieffi fudge sunday from 2013, and dispatch the Nencini thriller movie script.

I am curious what they will say about the 'staged break-in', and the calunnia charge (I'm hoping they vacate the original calunnia conviction. (I know that's a long shot, but I'm puttin' it on the nose. I just don't think the normal rules apply in this case, moo).

Edited by Loss Leader: 
Edited for Rules 11, 12
 
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Shocking!!!

It has already been pointed out that bleach will only react with luminol for up to eight hours after application. And in any case:
Not true. This is dependant on the type of bleach and the circumstances e.g. temperature, light exposure. See for instance http://www.solvaychemicals.com/Chem...rinated_inorganics/PCH-1400-0007-W-EN_WW_.pdf Hypochlorite solutions may be reactive much longer than hours.

if a crime scene is thoroughly cleaned with a bleach solution, residual cleaner will cause the entire crime scene to produce the typical blue glow, effectively camouflaging any organic evidence, such as blood.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luminol
---------
Not true. Only the areas with bleach on them will cause Luminol to fluoresce.

Secondly the luminol tests carried out by the Scientific Police 18th Dec 2007 highlighted several footprints of Amanda's and Raf's genetic DNA. Remember, luminol reacts with the iron elements in haemoglobin, causing it to momentarily glow in the dark, allowing police to take night photography of the phenomenon.

Not true. There are no footprints of Sollecito identified by Luminol or otherwise. The only DNA of Sollecito from the flat was on the cigarette butt and on the bra fastener. There are no footprints identified as belonging to Knox. There are Luminol positive marks that have no identifying characteristics that swabs identified Knox's DNA as present.


Amanda did have a long welt on her neck, more like a scratch - her own knife turned on herself?! - and her lower earring, of several, appears to have been ripped off. Raf's face in the shots outside the cottage, where the pair were canoodling, shows a nasty graze across his chin.

All highlighted above untrue. Do you even know what a welt is? Please specify the length, long is very subjective. There was no welt documented. There is no rip in Knox's ear. Please evidence the graze, why is it nasty?

There are actually few traces of Rudy's DNA beyond that found on the body, bag and pillowcase.

Agree APART from those found on the victim's body and possessions there are few traces of Guede's DNA.

The defence scientists themselves argued the bloody footprint was too undistiguished to identify it.

Agree

Police said it was size 42 (Raf's size), whereas Rudy's is 45.
These are shoe sizes not foot sizes. What competence do the police have in this issue? Perhaps you refer to the fingerprint officers who were working in a private capacity for which they were paid by the prosecution, who used discredited methodology?

There was a blond hair found gripped in Mez' hand, another in her vagina and one across her bag.
Please see previous references on correct forensic analysis of hairs (never carried out by the police forensic service). Without proper analysis we do not know if these fibres were hairs (as opposed to e.g. nylon fibre), human hairs (as opposed to e.g. wool).

There was a ladies size 37 footprint in blood

Untrue. Size 37 is a shoe size. Do you refer to a shoe print or a foot print?

There was a shard of glass from Filomena's room. As Rudy had long fled and the burglary was staged post-murder,

Untrue there is no evidence the burglary was staged.

it likely came from Amanda, who left a footprint on a card under Filomena's window,

Untrue

plus two mixed traces of her and Mez, in that room. There is no DNA trace of Rudy in Filomena's room, or small bathroom. IIRC papers were scattered around to give the burglary scene "credibility". Whoops! Amanda left her footprint on one of the cards!

Why is there no DNA trace of Filomena in her own room? Rudy admits to going into Filomena's room. Why should he have left DNA if he broke in as he likely wore gloves? There is no footprint or do you mean shoe print of Knox.

There was a bloody fingerprint on the small bathroom lightswitch (Amanda's) depressed down, indicating it was dark at the time,
Not true. There is no fingerprint of Knox in blood. In any case with an internal bathroom one would need to switch the light on (and off) day and night.

together with Amanda's blood on the tap and in the bidet, left on or around 1/2 November 2007, proving her physical presence at the scene as of the time of the murder.
Not true. There was no blood of Knox in the bidet. You are right with regards to the blood on the tap / faucet. There is no time stamp with regards to the blood deposition. There are certainly many none criminal reasons for a resident to leave blood spots in their own bathroom. It certainly cannot prove her presence at the time of the murder.

Police found all together five mixed DNA of Amanda and Mez, but none mixed with any of the other flat mates.
Were any DNA samples of the other flat mates or Kercher's boy friend found? Why not?

Raff's fingerprint was on the inside of Mez' door and also in Laura's room,

Not true.

and on a cigarette stub.
Not true, although his DNA mixed with Knox's DNA was. Smoking is not yet a crime in Italy.

Phone records show Amanda was not at Raff's all evening, as claimed.
Not true

Her text to Patrick was from nearby or at the cottage.
Since this was sent prior to Kercher's arrival at the cottage what is the relevance. In any case the data is compatible with being sent from Sollecito's. Also have to match with the eye witness testimony as to Knox being present at Sollecito's.

Raff's PC was not in use from after the pair downloaded 'Amelie'. A manga cartoon auto-started afterwards. Both phones were switched off 8:45pm-ish. Raff's was not switched back on until 5:30am-ish, and the computer circa the same time, to play some grunge rock. (I myself used to play Motorhead's Ace of Spades or Adam & the Ants Prince Charming at top volume #11 a la Spinal Tap, to celebrate passing any particularly tough accountancy exam.)*
This would be the computer hard drive damaged by the police? There is no way to know if a phone is switched off as opposed to being out of contact with a base station. Equally there is no way to know if a phone is switched on as opposed to coming within a base station range. Adam Ant is not grunge rock.

The tedious soundbite, there is no trace of Amanda or Raf at the crime scene, is laughable.

I am here to kill ignorance!

But you knew all of this anyway.

*ETA Numerous witnesses, including police, testified Amanda was in a highly euphoric condition immediately after the murder. For example, in the questura, the lingerie shop, diary entries, etc.

You appear to demonstrate a great deal of ignorance. Your 'evidence' is all false. E.g. what lingerie shop?
 
I gave you a clear link to what the luminol tests revealed. Your turn to explain in which way the information was refuted; by whom and when.

http://themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Luminol_Traces

What your reference actually says "Bleach only causes a reaction with luminol for a few days after the bleach is deposited" So not eight hours then?

Here's another link re bleach clean ups and crime scenes.

http://www.exploreforensics.co.uk/detecting-evidence-after-bleaching.html

What your reference says
"With oxygen bleach, the bleach has an oxidising agent, which could be a substance such as hydrogen peroxide. In these instances, haemoglobin is completely removed and can't later be detected." Does not say anything about duration. Suggests that if bleach was used then know Luminol positive marks would NOT have been found!

Bearing in mind, we recently established on this forum, the effects of bleach will only show up in luminol within eight hours, and will tend to show as a blanket light blue glow.

The Scientific Police did not use luminol testing until 18th Dec, so how do you suggest they could have detected a bleach clean up?

Remember, you soundbited that "no bleach clean up was found."

So your own references disagree with eight hours. They suggest that if bleach was used no Luminol trace would have been left. So do we conclude no clean up then?
 
No, the original statement by Dougm was that police found no evidence of a clean up.

I pointed out, unless they test within eight hours they could not definitively say one way or the other.

This is classic guilter logic! They come up with a ludicrous theory and they then demand that the defense disprove the theory. In other words, they reverse the burden of proof. If AK and RS can't prove that they didn't do a clean up then they are guilty. Amanda can't prove that she didn't walk around Perusia with a big kitchen knife in her purse, therefore she did. The defense can't prove how Raffaele's DNA got on the bra clasp after it was kicked around on the floor for six weeks, therefore he participated in the murder.
 
Why don't you simply state in detail what exactly you think the evidence for a cleanup is? We haven't seen any evidence.

Once we know what your argument for a cleanup is based on, we can have a proper debate.

the lamp obvs
 
Hey, less than 10 days to go before the motivation report is due. Hope our translators are ready.

By the way, anyone care to guess how many pages the ISC motivation report will be?

My guess is 150 pages. A little more than Hellman, to account for the chieffi fudge sunday from 2013, and dispatch the Nencini thriller movie script.

I am curious what they will say about the 'staged break-in', and the calunnia charge (I'm hoping they vacate the original calunnia conviction. (I know that's a long shot, but I'm puttin' it on the nose. I just don't think the normal rules apply in this case, moo).

On the topic of the motivation report:

Although I've heard both pro-guilt and pro-innocent people say "just wait for the report", I don't actually think it will change anyone's mind.

Just like Hellman's report is dismissed by those who believe Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty, so too will Marasca's.
 
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This is classic guilter logic! They come up with a ludicrous theory and they then demand that the defense disprove the theory. In other words, they reverse the burden of proof. If AK and RS can't prove that they didn't do a clean up then they are guilty. Amanda can't prove that she didn't walk around Perusia with a big kitchen knife in her purse, therefore she did. The defense can't prove how Raffaele's DNA got on the bra clasp after it was kicked around on the floor for six weeks, therefore he participated in the murder.

Yes one of the top 5 classic statements for the prosecution was Novelli's "contamination must be proven". Reversing the entire concept of proper protocol being necessary for forensic DNA testing especially with LCN DNA.
 
On the topic of the motivation report:

Although I've heard both pro-guilt and pro-innocent people say "just wait for the report", I don't actually think it will change anyone's mind.

Just like Hellman's report is dismissed by those who believe Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty, so too will Marasca's.

Not that it will change minds per se but still of interest as what they say was key to finding for innocence. I see some debate about whether it was found that they were innocent or not guilty.

It would be great if they established for others in Italy that forensics need to be done correctly and that mere compatibles are not real evidence.
 
What your reference says
"With oxygen bleach, the bleach has an oxidising agent, which could be a substance such as hydrogen peroxide. In these instances, haemoglobin is completely removed and can't later be detected." Does not say anything about duration. Suggests that if bleach was used then know Luminol positive marks would NOT have been found!

Did you notice the type of bleach found?
 
Not that it will change minds per se but still of interest as what they say was key to finding for innocence. I see some debate about whether it was found that they were innocent or not guilty.

It would be great if they established for others in Italy that forensics need to be done correctly and that mere compatibles are not real evidence.

Indeed it will be devoured with great interest.
 
On the topic of the motivation report:

Although I've heard both pro-guilt and pro-innocent people say "just wait for the report", I don't actually think it will change anyone's mind.

Just like Hellman's report is dismissed by those who believe Amanda Knox and Raffaele Sollecito are guilty, so too will Marasca's.

It might not change minds, but the reasoning will be interesting because it must strike down the certainties in Nencini's report. Will it re-iterate Hellmann's denunciation of the the 5th/6th interrogation and provide more assistance to Amanda's case at the ECHR? What will it say about CandV? Will it say anything about discovery? And, of course, how will it address the question of the break-in and the number of killers? Guede's team will be looking at it too. I think the court will bound to choose its words very carefully indeed.
 
Attempted cleaning of bloodstains and its effect on the forensic luminol test
Jonathan I. Creamer,1,2 Terence I. Quickenden,1* Leah B. Crichton,1 Patrick Robertson1 and Rasha A. Ruhayel1

Source: Luminescence (In press)
Published online in Wiley InterScience (www.interscience.wiley.com). DOI: 10.1002/bio.865

There is a misstatement by Vixen of the facts presented in this article. The luminol chemiluminescence that decreases after 8 hours of drying is that of sodium hypochlorite solution - bleach - alone, not when mixed with blood as part of a cleanup.

A cleanup of blood leaves swirl patterns of residual hemoglobin. These cannot be detected unaided visually; one would need luminol or a similar detection agent to detect the low levels of residual hemoglobin. No such swirl patterns were detected at the Kercher murder crime scene.

Blood tends to dry to a pattern. Please give me a citation that shows "dried blood stains that have bleach applied to it, will show up as swirls on a luminol test, enabling police to ascertain whether or not there has been a clean up, and this is set in stone (no pun intended)".
 
Why don't you simply state in detail what exactly you think the evidence for a cleanup is? We haven't seen any evidence.

Once we know what your argument for a cleanup is based on, we can have a proper debate.

Let's start with the one sided shoe prints and the half a footprint on the bathmat.

Explain how this occurred without a clean up.
 
Blood tends to dry to a pattern. Please give me a citation that shows "dried blood stains that have bleach applied to it, will show up as swirls on a luminol test, enabling police to ascertain whether or not there has been a clean up, and this is set in stone (no pun intended)".

The swirls or similar patterns on blood cleanup are from the motions of the sponge, mop, towel, or similar object used to contact the blood and to apply the liquid cleaner (which may be bleach). These cleanup items (sponge, mop, towel, or similar object) must also be disposed of if the cleanup is intended to hide evidence of a crime.
 
Let's start with the one sided shoe prints and the half a footprint on the bathmat.

Explain how this occurred without a clean up.

Gosh is this a test? By one sided I assume you mean just one shoe as in left or right. This is tough. Can I use a lifeline? How about if only one shoe stepped in blood or whatever substance left the print?

The footprint on the mat was more like 7/8th but maybe the person stepped front foot first and didn't put full weight on his heel. Or the part of heel missing was on the tile and was wiped away by the mat being moved.
 
Were any DNA samples of the other flat mates or Kercher's boy friend found?

Ooh! Ooh! I can answer that one! The police never took any DNA samples from Filomena or Laura, or from their boyfriends, Marco and Luca.

The police also failed to take samples from their own CSI techs who had entered the cottage to process the crime scene, which is standard CSI practice since if unknown DNA is found you want to be able to exclude your own guys from screwing up and leaving it there.

I recall on Day-1 that Mignini entered the cottage without being properly suited up, so Mignini's DNA may have also been on Meredith's bra-clasp?

The Italians were so bumbling about processing the crime scene that nothing is certain. Geeze, these Keystone cops didn't even collect Meredith's bloody blue jacket (or the bra-clasp) until 47 days after the murder!


Best guess –– because they were bumbling incompetent CSI idiots?
 
Blood tends to dry to a pattern. Please give me a citation that shows "dried blood stains that have bleach applied to it, will show up as swirls on a luminol test, enabling police to ascertain whether or not there has been a clean up, and this is set in stone (no pun intended)".

The swirls or similar patterns on blood cleanup are from the motions of the sponge, mop, towel, or similar object used to contact the blood and to apply the liquid cleaner (which may be bleach). These cleanup items (sponge, mop, towel, or similar object) must also be disposed of if the cleanup is intended to hide evidence of a crime.

Citation: R. A. Zweidinger, ~ Ph.D., L. T. Lytle, 2 M.S., and C, G. Pitt, ~ Ph.D.
Photography of Bloodstains Visualized by Luminol; J Forensic Sci, Oct. 1973, Vol. 18, No. 4; Figure 4 shows the swirls produced in a "cleanup" of a bloodstain.

Note that when the bleach (which is in fact a solution of sodium hypochlorite in water) or other cleaning agent contacts the dried bloodstain, that stain becomes hydrated. The cleanup intent is to transfer the blood to a cleaning object such as, for example, a sponge, mop, or towel. Not all the blood transfers, however; there is generally a residual which is not visible to the unaided eye. The application of luminol or similar detection chemical allows visualization of this residual by chemiluminescence. The swirls are simply the pattern left by the motion of the cleaning object, moistened with bleach or other cleaning agent, on the residual blood hemoglobin that remains on the substrate (floor, wall, or other surface).
 
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