Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Bill Williams]

eatch?

I trying to figure out what word you were going for Bill. 'Kavetch'? 'bitch'? 'Screetch'? I'm stumped. Eatch!

Eatch is present pluperfect for watch.

 

[carbonjam72]

Eatch is present pluperfect for watch.

I'm calling "bull-oney". Pluperfect? WTF! I'm not even googling, on principle.

 

[Dougm]

eatch?

I trying to figure out what word you were going for Bill. 'Kavetch'? 'bitch'? 'Screetch'? I'm stumped. Eatch!

Take a look at your keyboard and notice the letter directly to the left of the "e".

 

[Numbers]

Someone posted at ISF, IIRC, that Amanda had failed to mention Patrick Lumumba in her initial interviews, and that this was one of several factors that made the police suspect her and Lumumba. However, Amanda is recorded in her first witness statement (dated Nov. 2, 2007, 3:30 pm) as stating that she sometimes worked at the pub Le chic:



Therefore, she implicitly named Lumumba as someone she knew, as the police would know that Lumumba was the proprietor of the pub.

ETA: Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/statements-phone-taps-prison-intercepts/

If one explores the "convenient suspects" hypothesis, the police may have considered the following: Amanda only had Raffaele as her alibi, and of course he only had her. Lumumba, the police could have considered, likewise would have had a poor alibi because there would be few customers on the night of Nov. 1. Any electronic register record from Le chic would be examined by the postal police; based on their handling of the computers, this would likely result in no available evidence. (I am not claiming that the register evidence actually was destroyed; I am uncertain of what it showed and how the police interpreted it.)

 

[zotz]

Hellmann wasn't an advocate. In journalism advocacy isn't looked upon as an asset.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Italians didn't prove BARD their guilt.

Is that last sentence a reference to Nina claiming she wasn't an advocate?

In the epilogue of her book Nina said, "Knox did not kill her roommate, and there has never been any convincing evidence - circumstantial or otherwise that she did." That is a fairly direct statement of her position.

So no, Nina is not claiming to be impartial. The word "advocate" is a loaded term, implying that a writer has an agenda. I think Nina was stating her conclusion and it would have been absurd for her to claim at that point that she was neutral. You state that you believe that the prosecution failed to prove guilt BARD. That leaves your position a bit ambiguous, doesn't it?

Being an "advocate" can be something that is involuntary. Hellman was criticized severely and he even claimed that he was pressured to resign after the verdict. So, he has a personal stake in their innocence or guilt, doesn't he?Maybe the same is true for Nina.

Question: How come you left the judiciary right after that verdict?

Hellmann: "I was practically forced to. Our decision was received with reactions of contempt. I can still remember the whistling and the shouting by a claque that had gathered outside the Court house on the evening of the verdict. From the next day I felt surrounded by a growing hostility. In the bars of Perugia they were saying I had sold out to the Americans, that I had yielded to the pressures of the CIA. Tall tales, of course, but what hit me more than the defamatory lynching that lasted years, was the reaction of colleagues in the judiciary. Nearly all of them stopped greeting me. In particular those who in various roles had been involved in the case. I realized that my Court had been a lone voice in a Courthouse where all the judges, starting with the GUP (Judge of the Preliminary hearing) up to those of various review courts, while criticizing the investigation, had endorsed the charges. In addition I had good possibilities of becoming the President of the Tribunal and naturally that position was assigned to another colleague who certainly was very worthy but I had some suspicion that it was a retaliation. So, six months after the sentence I decided to retire."

 

[Grinder]

For those who believe that there are no police conspiracies against innocent people, here is an example of one from the US state of Georgia:

Decatur deputy sheriff convicted for withholding evidence
Three deputies convicted of obstructing justice
http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2015/jun/11/decatur-deputy-sheriff-convicted-for-withholding/

Could you direct us to someone who said there are no conspiracies against innocent people? Police have framed people from forever. They also concoct evidence against people that are guilty in order to ensure convictions.

 

[Grinder]

btw, Jim Clemente referring to Raf's kitchen kjnife being excluded because it didn't match the wounds on Kercher, it was pretty clear to me he was referring to the wounds that were consistent with a single knife. The 3rd major wound to the neck, was said (by Moore and Clemente) to be consistent with any sharp object including a shard of glass. To suggest that it was a lie to say Raf's kitchen knife was not compatible with Kercher's wounds, is again, just being obtuse. I think its obvious what Jim Clemente meant, and it consistent with the prosecution's view. (Because the prosecution concedes for Raf's knife to have been used in the murder, it had to be a second knife - precisely because it didn't match the other wounds).

He says it wasn't the murder weapon and that the prosecutions expert admitted it. He also says no other knife from Raf's was tested. I believe a couple other were tested and someone here posted about it. Dan O. do you have that info?

We all know that the PG theory is multiple weapons but his account is designed to make people believe the knife was said not to be the murder weapon by the prosecution expert and that never happened.

The way he phrases it he also leaves the impression the knife was dropped after the first trial.

 

[Grinder]

He presumably knows how to tead these tea-leaves better than you and I put together! Like I implied, it's one thing for Moore to fall into skepticism but anyone here, way up in the bleachers.

Vos parvulus esses in oculis meis - I don't know if I could do a better job with you as a handicap

It's quite another to have one of his peers look at the same scenario/context and venture an opinion about it.

What peers. Anti terrorist special forces?

 

[Numbers]

Could you direct us to someone who said there are no conspiracies against innocent people? Police have framed people from forever. They also concoct evidence against people that are guilty in order to ensure convictions.

I think you yourself could find some who would claim that.

But let me point out the comment of LPA in post #585. LPA's concern in that post was that there are persons who would attack as a "conspiracy theorist" someone who claimed police and prosecution in the AK-RS case carried out misconduct in concert. But there are some well-known cases of misconduct conspiracies among police in the US, and some may also involve the prosecution. In the Georgia example, only several police officers were involved; the sheriff's police involved were convicted of misconduct which they engaged in to coverup the unjustified beating of a person by a sheriff's deputy.

 

[Grinder]

I think you yourself could find some who would claim that.

But let me point out the comment of LPA in post #585. LPA's concern in that post was that there are persons who would attack as a "conspiracy theorist" someone who claimed police and prosecution in the AK-RS case carried out misconduct in concert. But there are some well-known cases of misconduct conspiracies among police in the US, and some also involve the prosecution. In the Georgia example, only several police officers were involved; the sheriff's police involved were convicted of misconduct which they engaged in to coverup the unjustified beating of a person by a sheriff's deputy.

Lonepine said that using word framing improperly, in other words substituting framing for police misconduct, would lead educated readers to believe the writer meant a conspiracy to convict innocent people in this case the kids. No one has said framing has never occurred by the police.

I think that even today most of the PLE believe she did it or was involved. Did they make a conspiracy to fabricate evidence?

 

[Strozzi]

It is interesting no one has asked what is the smell of bleach? In particular what lingering smell would there be.

Bleach could either be hydrogen peroxide, which would produce oxygen and water both pretty odourless, or a chlorine based agent such as hypochlorite that would produce chlorine gas. This is 'pungent' causing pain, watering of the eyes, etc. Chlorine gas is reactive and would not linger for long.

Household bleaches or other cleaning agents may contain clean odours such as pine or lemon. (Usually with non bleach containing cleaning agents). One question I have asked myself is how familiar with household cleaning agents would an Italian male police officer be? Could he distinguish between a bleach, and a non-bleach household cleaner?

It also doesn't taste good. Trust me on this.

 

[acbytesla]

I haven't read Follain's book, but I recall a comment on it, criticizing Follain for printing that Amanda's Facebook page indicated her interest: Men. But the only choices on Facebook for interested in, was "men" or "women". So Follain saying Amanda was interested in "men" on her Facebook page seems pretty clearly designed to create an artificially salacious aura.

Another example I'd read, IIRC, is where one of the police says "this was no break-in", and Follain notes something like 'Amanda and Raf remained silent'. That type of reporting is designed to cast suspicion where none is warranted. Its not legitimate journalism, it's a kind of tabloid rag slander journalism.

Vogt's writings and Nadeau's also had their own biased slant, I think that's clear.

Nina on the other hand has said she was not on anyone's side. On several points I found Nina's book inaccurate, for example when she writes that Amanda was "jealous" of Meredith over her boyfriend, or god knows what else. I think that's Nina's prejudice being projected through her writing. Whether that's a deliberate error in hopes of avoiding litigation by supporting the litigious Mignini's line of 'jealousy run amok', or an actual belief of Nina's I can't say. I think she meant it, I just don't agree that its true.

When Nina went to interview Del Prato I believe, regarding Rudy's previous break-ins, IIRC, Nina said she was only the second journalist to have visited and done the legwork she considered 'reporting 101'.

To lump all journalists together as writing with equal quality and reliability, just seems deliberately obtuse.

btw, Jim Clemente referring to Raf's kitchen kjnife being excluded because it didn't match the wounds on Kercher, it was pretty clear to me he was referring to the wounds that were consistent with a single knife. The 3rd major wound to the neck, was said (by Moore and Clemente) to be consistent with any sharp object including a shard of glass. To suggest that it was a lie to say Raf's kitchen knife was not compatible with Kercher's wounds, is again, just being obtuse. I think its obvious what Jim Clemente meant, and it consistent with the prosecution's view. (Because the prosecution concedes for Raf's knife to have been used in the murder, it had to be a second knife - precisely because it didn't match the other wounds).

I have no problem per se in taking a position. But your example of Follain and Facebook demonstrates basic dishonesty. Twisting something irrelevant to make it "colorful". Did Nina do this with Rudy? The Dickensian reference was clearly comparing Rudy to Pip. But did she twist the facts about Rudy with that reference? I don't think so.

 

[carbonjam72]

I have no problem per se in taking a position. But your example of Follain and Facebook demonstrates basic dishonesty. Twisting something irrelevant to make it "colorful". Did Nina do this with Rudy? The Dickensian reference was clearly comparing Rudy to Pip. But did she twist the facts about Rudy with that reference? I don't think so.

Completely agree with your whole comment. I especially like the way you phrased it: [Twisting something irrelevant to make it "colorful".]

 

[Grinder]

I have no problem per se in taking a position. But your example of Follain and Facebook demonstrates basic dishonesty. Twisting something irrelevant to make it "colorful". Did Nina do this with Rudy? The Dickensian reference was clearly comparing Rudy to Pip. But did she twist the facts about Rudy with that reference? I don't think so.

Did MySpace have the same choices because I don't think she was on FB or at least most of the stuff came from her MySpace page - rape story etc.

Nina reference to Dickenson isn't the issue. She was a key advocate for the FOA/IIP Rudi was on a crime wave meme. When one drills down there is very little to back that claim. Nina did little things like exaggerate the food cooked and putting Nappy ahead of seeing Rudi at the discos. People here were using the Nappy connection to build their case for the PLE knowing his MO and the informant meme. She takes very sketchy bits and pieces and organizes them to make readers think her way as many here prove. Why don't we have Pisco's statements?

I bet you haven't read Rudi's own words from Germany to the interview with M and Nappy. There are interesting things about the discos that if CT saw before his story might just change a mind.

The defense took the lone wolf approach and therefore wanted to make him in a crime wave. I understand their approach particularly in Italy where innocence needs to proven just like contamination. Novelli anyone?

 

[Grinder]

Tesla you know aggravating not getting a response from V was for you.

Could either supply Diaz's Twitter account or explain why you ask me if I was serious about not finding anything for her and then saying she has a twitter account and isn't in hiding (which I hadn't suggested she was)?

Did you think the Madu Diaz in Mexico was Nina's Diaz?

I repeat that I woud be shocked if Diaz was a total creation of Nina's. I even believe some sort of break in and a fire occurred but it was exaggerated like the pounds of pasta.

 

[christianahannah]

He says it wasn't the murder weapon and that the prosecutions expert admitted it. He also says no other knife from Raf's was tested. I believe a couple other were tested and someone here posted about it. Dan O. do you have that info?

We all know that the PG theory is multiple weapons but his account is designed to make people believe the knife was said not to be the murder weapon by the prosecution expert and that never happened.

The way he phrases it he also leaves the impression the knife was dropped after the first trial.

There was a knife with an eight cm blade taken from Raffaele's bedroom and tested and the flick knife which he was carrying with him at the Questera was also taken and tested.

ETA: This eight centimeter knife was tested for blood and did not yield that result. Their was the DNA of both Raffaele and Amanda on the belt clip of the knife.

 

[christianahannah]

I thought the Luminol was not used until December 18.

I think this article may be referring to Raffaele's flat which was searched on November 13 and luminol applied to various places.

 

[Ken Dine]

Did hair samples come up as evidence in Guede's trial?

The whole issue of Lumumba's status as far as the police were concerned by the time of the 5th November interrogations is a crucial one. Was he actually a suspect based on race identified from hair samples as you suggest and his affiliation with Amanda, or was he unknown to them at this time? This leads into the murky world of phone taps and other surreptitious recording, which we do know Lumumba was subject to, from testimony.

Several early Italian articles (pasted below) prove that the police were focused in on an African killer long before Amanda supposedly had fingered Lumumba on Nov 6th.

Guede's fast-track trial was essentially a trial by stipulation with both the prosecution and Guede agreeing to key points, which of course would implicate Amanda and Raffaele, as well as relegate Guede to being a bit player, which made both sides happy.

Amanda and Raffaele's defense may have raised these issues at their own trial later on, but Massei obviously already had his mind made up.

If it was mentioned at their trial, why Massei's 'Motivation' never mentions either the African hairs, nor the fact that the police had focused in on an African suspect early on, is likely due to the fact such evidence would be exonerating evidence, so Massei of course wouldn't want to go there.

For example, this Nov 5th Italian article proves that the police were already focused in on Lumumba before Amanda’s Nov 6th all-night interrogation (translated by my Chrome browser):

The second track of investigation focuses on the small group of friends. There are suspicions of a North African chef, one who works in one of the pubs frequented by students in Perugia English, Meredith and her friends. "It's the type of cut throat" that investigators do somehow think Islam. But officially say he was a friend, like others. Could have received the keys to the neighbors, by roommates? "That, yes, but there is no other.”

repubblica.it/2007/11/sezioni/cronaca/perugia-uccisa/elementi-autopsia/elementi-autopsia.html

Since I can’t post URLs yet, add the “http” & "www" part of the URLs for yourself. Here’s another early Italian article from a day earlier:

THE CRIME OF PERUGIA. THE FIRST RESPONSES FROM MOBILE PHONES AND FROM THE EXAMINATION OF BIOLOGICAL SAMPLES

"Meredith knew his murderess" We found many traces, c 'is a track
Forced to endure sexual intercourse. The testimony of a ‘friend

From our correspondent PERUGIA -
(4 November 2007)

[ ]
Meredith Kercher, London's not even 22 years old will die before the 'dawn of Friday, with the trachea severed by a knife: the topless, bra torn and bloodied nearby, nothin' else on. Hidden under the bed, covered with a towel, her legs spread. And while she's there, the 'murderess goes to the bathroom, he washes his hands. He's confused, it leaves traces everywhere, even on the toilet. Then he tries to simulate a theft: breaks a window, door via mobile phones Boy and the keys to his room. Finally, out the door of the house 200 meters from the center of Perugia, and he hopes to disappear into the darkness.

But the investigator, now, following a trail: there would be some suspects, names identified among acquaintances of the girl, in 'environment of his Italian friend, in that of a group of North Africans.

archiviostorico.corriere.it/2007/novembre/04/Meredith_conosceva_suo_assassino_Trovate_co_9_071104164.shtml

This last one is a UK article (and we know how fair they were):

SECURITY camera footage shows that murder suspect Amanda Knox was in the apartment she shared with Meredith Kercher the night the British student was brutally slain.

By MICHAEL DAY IN ITALY
PUBLISHED: Mon, Nov 12, 2007
[ ]
Apart from Knox's accusations that Lumumba killed Meredith, Police have said the bar owner's mobile phone had connected with the transmitter in the region of Miss Kercher's house at 8.39 the night of the murder. They have also taken some strands of "medium-length" hair from his [LUMUMBA’s] head for analysis, in the belief they may belong to Meredith.

express.co.uk/news/uk/24996/CCTV-footage-sheds-light-on-Meredith-case

If the Italian police hadn’t found a Black man's kinky hair at the crime scene (on or near Meredith’s body), then what purpose would there be to take a sample strand of hair from Lumumba’s head?

 

[Grinder]

There was a knife with an eight cm blade taken from Raffaele's bedroom and tested and the flick knife which he was carrying with him at the Questera was also taken and tested.

ETA: This eight centimeter knife was tested for blood and did not yield that result. Their was the DNA of both Raffaele and Amanda on the belt clip of the knife.

Thanks another falsehood by the FBI duo.

 

[Grinder]

I think this article may be referring to Raffaele's flat which was searched on November 13 and luminol applied to various places.

Thanks. Wonder why they tested his asap and the cottage so much later. I think waiting takes away the bleach covering factor, but wish experts from the box seat or the suites would weigh in.