Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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Here are some of the coverage of the "case closed" presser:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492410/Meredith-Foxy-Knoxy-brought-strange-men-house.html

http://seattlest.com/2007/11/07/from_the_papers.php

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/the_realm_of_the_sensless
(comment on the 16th as per Dan O.'s info mentions bleach no receipt)

No mention of bleach much less a receipt from the morning after tied to Amanda.

The only mention of bleach before the 9th is referring to the bottle Raf is holding in the MySpace pic.

Dave has determined Mignini wasn't even there. Moore's statement is false. Clemente's statement about the knife being ruled out by the prosecution expert is false.

The two interview vids should be watched for errors.

Maybe I am missing something in my reading, but I see no real coverage of the press conference held by the police after the Nov. 6, 2007 arrests in the citations provided above.

While it seems clear that Mignini was not at the press conference (and he certainly didn't appear in the commonly shown photo), did Mignini authorize the press conference? His legal role as prosecutor (Public Minister), according to Italian procedural law, is to direct the police engaged in an investigation during said investigation. Thus, any statements made by the police at a press conference made during an investigation could be assumed to be approved by the prosecutor, in his role as director of the police investigation. However, there apparently was no verifiable reference to bleach receipts at the press conference, but the police apparently were telling media false reports of such receipts at a later date. Since the police involved in the investigation are required by Italian procedural law to follow the direction of the prosecutor, the prosecutor either authorized such statements to the media or did not disavow them.

ETA: A transcript or video of the press conference would be most useful, especially with regard to evidence of violation of the presumption of innocence. Presumption of innocence with respect to a crime is a right of all persons not convicted of such crime, within the Council of Europe States according to ECHR case-law.
 
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Grinder, who is claiming that there was an actual receipt for bleach purchased about the time of the murder? The only claims I've seen from here is that the police were saying that they had the receipts. In fact, they were quite explicit claims that they had two receipts for purchase of bleach at two specific times.

It is clear that if these claims were made by the police they were lies.

Steve Moore is one that claims Mignini at the presser on the 7th made the claim that they had receipts for Amanda buying bleach the morning after and evidence she used it at the cottage.

If Mignini had made those claims, they clearly would have been lies.
 
I am in the position of agreeing with Grinder about Moore's position on Rudy as informer, but disagreeing with him on what you point out......

.... namely, that simply because someone takes a position they've hopelessly lost their objectivity.

Bill appreciate the support ;).

I have never said "they've hopelessly lost their objectivity" but when false statement are shown then other statements, specifically ones that support the bias and are not corroborated, deserve more skepticism.
 
The issue with Moore and his opinion that Rudy might have been a police informant is this:

It is decidedly NOT whether or not he could convince us here on this thread of that..... none of us have the necessary professional experience to rate an opinion.

The issue is: could he convince his peers? Our job is to simply eatch from the bleachers.

Some people here know more about this case than most of the experts that looked at one specific aspect. One of our "lay" DNA people has apparently been consulted in some "real" work. While I doubt much if anything from here has had an impact, I think some of the thoughts here could have helped the defense.

You may feel that you are just in the bleachers or the peanut gallery. It's not as if one needs to be a FBI man to understand informant. Maybe you believe in "eyes for lies" and think a pro like Steve can just tell that Rudi was an informant. I don't.
 
Maybe I am missing something in my reading, but I see no real coverage of the press conference held by the police after the Nov. 6, 2007 arrests in the citations provided above.

While it seems clear that Mignini was not at the press conference (and he certainly didn't appear in the commonly shown photo), did Mignini authorize the press conference? His legal role as prosecutor (Public Minister), according to Italian procedural law, is to direct the police engaged in an investigation during said investigation. Thus, any statements made by the police at a press conference made during an investigation could be assumed to be approved by the prosecutor, in his role as director of the police investigation. However, there apparently was no verifiable reference to bleach receipts at the press conference, but the police apparently were telling media false reports of such receipts at a later date. Since the police involved in the investigation are required by Italian procedural law to follow the direction of the prosecutor, the prosecutor either authorized such statements to the media or did not disavow them.

ETA: A transcript or video of the press conference would be most useful, especially with regard to evidence of violation of the presumption of innocence. Presumption of innocence with respect to a crime is a right of all persons not convicted of such crime, within the Council of Europe States according to ECHR case-law.

No reports of bleach appeared until well after the presser except in reference to Raf's MySpace pic. Moore specifically said Mignini claimed they had the receipts and that they were from Amanda's purchase.

I've wanted to see the presser for years.

ETA - the Seattlest http://seattlest.com/2007/11/07/from_the_papers.php article mentions the presser for sure.

They were taken to the central police station in a ten-car convoy with sirens blaring. A short time later a press conference was called and an officer at the gates declared 'caso chiuso', which means case closed.
So that's it then? The Perugia polizia interrogate her for three days, probably with no lawyer present, certainly with no American lawyer present, there's a confession and "caso chiuso?" Why bother with a trial at all? The English media has already dug up plenty of evidence from the detritus a student leaves on the internet in the course of a modern life. There's Myspace, where Amanda once wrote a story about rape, the Youtube video where she appears intoxicated, a picture of her posing in an intimidating fashion with a machine gun, and no doubt her recent Twitters will be brought to light any day now by the hard-Googling British press.


See what you can find on the earliest report of bleach not involved in the MySpace pic.
 
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Tesla I still can't find anything on Madu Diaz except the Mexican Twitter account.

Btw, I think I've seen a Curatolo Twitter account with picture but I'm pretty sure it isn't him tweeting.
 
You are continually posting about evidence that either never existed, or has been disproven. You have so far ignored my request that you provide proof that Raff's fingerprint was inside Meredith's door. I will add to that a request to prove there was a woman's shoe print, and that there were hairs "similar to theirs".

Remember, this is a forum where people will look closely at claims, and confirm them. People here long ago learned that was, at first, claimed to be a woman's shoe print, turned out to be a partial print of Guede's Nike. And the hairs, well they only exist in a hard to decipher photograph, and were either lost or dismissed by the police as insignificant (not presented in court).

It's not really good form to keep posting old, made up, or disproven facts to try to prove your points. People might get confused and actually think there was a case against Knox and Sollecito.

The only list of crime-scene hairs I know of is found on a 'Guilter' website –– see below, and since I can’t post URLs yet, add the “http” part of the URL yourself.

As with DNA, hair can be inadvertently transferred from one place to another.

That said, 5 African hairs consistent with Guede were found in Meredith's bedroom (too many to be inadvertently transferred there), which explains why the police had focused in on an African suspect early on in this case, and since Lumumba was the only African man the police knew Amanda had a relationship with, that explains how Lumumba's name came up in the wee hours of November 6th, 2007:

Hairs

(Dr. Stefanoni Genetic Test, SAL report, Dr. Stefanoni slide presentation):

1. Of the over 480 tests prepared on samples, 93 of these constituted hairs or fibers. 86 were human hairs of varying length, in varying colors. The most significant colors noted were black, blonde, chestnut, light chestnut and red chestnut.
[ ]
4. 7 hairs were black in color. 6 of these were 4 cm long or less, and so likely Guede’s hair. 4 of these were on the duvet and 1 was on the mattress cover, both in Ms. Kercher’s room. 1 was also on a sponge at Sollecito’s apartment.

themurderofmeredithkercher.com/Evidence_List#Hairs
 
No reports of bleach appeared until well after the presser except in reference to Raf's MySpace pic. Moore specifically said Mignini claimed they had the receipts and that they were from Amanda's purchase.

I've wanted to see the presser for years.

ETA - the Seattlest http://seattlest.com/2007/11/07/from_the_papers.php article mentions the presser for sure.

They were taken to the central police station in a ten-car convoy with sirens blaring. A short time later a press conference was called and an officer at the gates declared 'caso chiuso', which means case closed. So that's it then? The Perugia polizia interrogate her for three days, probably with no lawyer present, certainly with no American lawyer present, there's a confession and "caso chiuso?" Why bother with a trial at all? The English media has already dug up plenty of evidence from the detritus a student leaves on the internet in the course of a modern life. There's Myspace, where Amanda once wrote a story about rape, the Youtube video where she appears intoxicated, a picture of her posing in an intimidating fashion with a machine gun, and no doubt her recent Twitters will be brought to light any day now by the hard-Googling British press.

See what you can find on the earliest report of bleach not involved in the MySpace pic.

The sentence I highlighted in your quoted post is all the information on the press conference. Obviously, no details are provided.

I am not arguing that Steve Moore was correct in his statement that Mignini (or anyone) discussed bleach or bleach receipts at the press conference. I believe Moore was not involved in the case until later, and he may be confusing later police or media statements and the press conference.

From my point of view, some of these details are interesting but not that important now that the CSC has issued a final acquittal. There had already been enough violation of Italian procedural law and ECHR case-law during the Nov. 5/6 interrogation to essentially invalidate any conviction, considering that no credible evidence against Amanda Knox or Raffaele Sollecito was found either before or after the press conference.

What is more important in terms of the human rights issue of presumption of innocence is this: Did the police at the press conference say, for example, "Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba are guilty" or did they say, for example, "We allege that Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba are guilty". There is a big difference in ECHR case-law between these two example statements.
 
Pretty much everyone involved in this case are human beings (I think) That means they are susceptible to all human failings from arrogance, overreaching, confirmation bias, laziness, greed etc. I'm curious, how do we review the quality of journalism? Is Candace and Nina better than Follain and Vogt? What about the countless others that have written or commented on this case. Who came by their stories honestly? Who might have exaggerated just to have their copy picked up by the Daily Mail, etc.

Where did the bleach receipts story originate? I think it first appeared in the November 19, 2007 article in the London Times courtesy of Owens.

Was it fed to the reporters from the police/prosecution? Or did it come from someone else? The PLE has been accused of leaking many of these false stories to the press. But you have to wonder, how many of these stories might not have come from say Mignini or De Felice, but from others tangentially involved with the case?

I believe for example most of the story about Mrs.Diaz burglary because Nina said she interviewed the woman. I can't imagine that Nina made her up. But that doesn't mean that Mrs Diaz didn't embellish her story somewhat.

It's also clear to me that some of the reports are exercises in creative writing. The article in the Daily Mail regarding the noise ticket is a case of that. The author weaves a story around the police incident report citing an unnamed party goer for the color.

Any way, it would be interesting to look closely at the quality of the reporting and understand just how this went off the rails.
 
Did the police at the press conference say, for example, "Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba are guilty" or did they say, for example, "We allege that Knox, Sollecito, and Lumumba are guilty". There is a big difference in ECHR case-law between these two example statements.

What do you think case closed meant?
 
I believe for example most of the story about Mrs.Diaz burglary because Nina said she interviewed the woman. I can't imagine that Nina made her up. But that doesn't mean that Mrs Diaz didn't embellish her story somewhat.

You just said she has a twitter account and is alive and well in Perugia. You even added the straw man that she wasn't in hiding.

Is the hilited portion an admission that you have no independent source for her existence much less the veracity of the fire story?

It is always the case that a Diaz or Tramontano or Prato could have embellished their stories but it is the job of a journalist to either make it clear where the facts come from and check with others or records to substantiate. Did Prato tell her pounds of pasta and frozen spinach were cooked or did Nina exaggerate herself. Under oath the story didn't match.
 
What do you think case closed meant?

Good point. But did a ranking police officer say it? Is this statement credibly documented from, for example, De Felice?

Also, I understand that the Italian Minister of the Interior, head of the state police, Giuliano Amato, made a statement to the effect that Meredith had been murdered by her flat-mate. Does anyone have the exact quote?
 
The issue with Moore and his opinion that Rudy might have been a police informant is this:

It is decidedly NOT whether or not he could convince us here on this thread of that..... none of us have the necessary professional experience to rate an opinion.

The issue is: could he convince his peers? Our job is to simply eatch from the bleachers.

eatch?

I trying to figure out what word you were going for Bill. 'Kavetch'? 'bitch'? 'Screetch'? I'm stumped. Eatch!
 
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Good point. But did a ranking police officer say it? Is this statement credibly documented from, for example, De Felice?

Also, I understand that the Italian Minister of the Interior, head of the state police, Giuliano Amato, made a statement to the effect that Meredith had been murdered by her flat-mate. Does anyone have the exact quote?

For those who believe that there are no police conspiracies against innocent people, here is an example of one from the US state of Georgia:

Decatur deputy sheriff convicted for withholding evidence
Three deputies convicted of obstructing justice
http://www.albanyherald.com/news/2015/jun/11/decatur-deputy-sheriff-convicted-for-withholding/
 
Pretty much everyone involved in this case are human beings (I think) That means they are susceptible to all human failings from arrogance, overreaching, confirmation bias, laziness, greed etc. I'm curious, how do we review the quality of journalism? Is Candace and Nina better than Follain and Vogt? What about the countless others that have written or commented on this case. Who came by their stories honestly? Who might have exaggerated just to have their copy picked up by the Daily Mail, etc.

Where did the bleach receipts story originate? I think it first appeared in the November 19, 2007 article in the London Times courtesy of Owens.

Was it fed to the reporters from the police/prosecution? Or did it come from someone else? The PLE has been accused of leaking many of these false stories to the press. But you have to wonder, how many of these stories might not have come from say Mignini or De Felice, but from others tangentially involved with the case?

I believe for example most of the story about Mrs.Diaz burglary because Nina said she interviewed the woman. I can't imagine that Nina made her up. But that doesn't mean that Mrs Diaz didn't embellish her story somewhat.

It's also clear to me that some of the reports are exercises in creative writing. The article in the Daily Mail regarding the noise ticket is a case of that. The author weaves a story around the police incident report citing an unnamed party goer for the color.

Any way, it would be interesting to look closely at the quality of the reporting and understand just how this went off the rails.

I haven't read Follain's book, but I recall a comment on it, criticizing Follain for printing that Amanda's Facebook page indicated her interest: Men. But the only choices on Facebook for interested in, was "men" or "women". So Follain saying Amanda was interested in "men" on her Facebook page seems pretty clearly designed to create an artificially salacious aura.

Another example I'd read, IIRC, is where one of the police says "this was no break-in", and Follain notes something like 'Amanda and Raf remained silent'. That type of reporting is designed to cast suspicion where none is warranted. Its not legitimate journalism, it's a kind of tabloid rag slander journalism.

Vogt's writings and Nadeau's also had their own biased slant, I think that's clear.

Nina on the other hand has said she was not on anyone's side. On several points I found Nina's book inaccurate, for example when she writes that Amanda was "jealous" of Meredith over her boyfriend, or god knows what else. I think that's Nina's prejudice being projected through her writing. Whether that's a deliberate error in hopes of avoiding litigation by supporting the litigious Mignini's line of 'jealousy run amok', or an actual belief of Nina's I can't say. I think she meant it, I just don't agree that its true.

When Nina went to interview Del Prato I believe, regarding Rudy's previous break-ins, IIRC, Nina said she was only the second journalist to have visited and done the legwork she considered 'reporting 101'.

To lump all journalists together as writing with equal quality and reliability, just seems deliberately obtuse.

btw, Jim Clemente referring to Raf's kitchen kjnife being excluded because it didn't match the wounds on Kercher, it was pretty clear to me he was referring to the wounds that were consistent with a single knife. The 3rd major wound to the neck, was said (by Moore and Clemente) to be consistent with any sharp object including a shard of glass. To suggest that it was a lie to say Raf's kitchen knife was not compatible with Kercher's wounds, is again, just being obtuse. I think its obvious what Jim Clemente meant, and it consistent with the prosecution's view. (Because the prosecution concedes for Raf's knife to have been used in the murder, it had to be a second knife - precisely because it didn't match the other wounds).
 
The only list of crime-scene hairs I know of is found on a 'Guilter' website –– see below, and since I can’t post URLs yet, add the “http” part of the URL yourself.

As with DNA, hair can be inadvertently transferred from one place to another.

That said, 5 African hairs consistent with Guede were found in Meredith's bedroom (too many to be inadvertently transferred there), which explains why the police had focused in on an African suspect early on in this case, and since Lumumba was the only African man the police knew Amanda had a relationship with, that explains how Lumumba's name came up in the wee hours of November 6th, 2007:

Did hair samples come up as evidence in Guede's trial?

The whole issue of Lumumba's status as far as the police were concerned by the time of the 5th November interrogations is a crucial one. Was he actually a suspect based on race identified from hair samples as you suggest and his affiliation with Amanda, or was he unknown to them at this time? This leads into the murky world of phone taps and other surreptitious recording, which we do know Lumumba was subject to, from testimony.
 
Did hair samples come up as evidence in Guede's trial?

The whole issue of Lumumba's status as far as the police were concerned by the time of the 5th November interrogations is a crucial one. Was he actually a suspect based on race identified from hair samples as you suggest and his affiliation with Amanda, or was he unknown to them at this time? This leads into the murky world of phone taps and other surreptitious recording, which we do know Lumumba was subject to, from testimony.

Someone posted at ISF, IIRC, that Amanda had failed to mention Patrick Lumumba in her initial interviews, and that this was one of several factors that made the police suspect her and Lumumba. However, Amanda is recorded in her first witness statement (dated Nov. 2, 2007, 3:30 pm) as stating that she sometimes worked at the pub Le chic:

I’ve been in Italy since the end of September for study purposes, even though occasionally, on Tuesdays and Thursdays, I work at the Pub named “Le chic”,...

Therefore, she implicitly named Lumumba as someone she knew, as the police would know that Lumumba was the proprietor of the pub.

ETA: Source: http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/statements-phone-taps-prison-intercepts/
 
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Some people here know more about this case than most of the experts that looked at one specific aspect. One of our "lay" DNA people has apparently been consulted in some "real" work. While I doubt much if anything from here has had an impact, I think some of the thoughts here could have helped the defense.

You may feel that you are just in the bleachers or the peanut gallery. It's not as if one needs to be a FBI man to understand informant. Maybe you believe in "eyes for lies" and think a pro like Steve can just tell that Rudi was an informant. I don't.

He presumably knows how to tead these tea-leaves better than you and I put together! Like I implied, it's one thing for Moore to fall into skepticism but anyone here, way up in the bleachers.

It's quite another to have one of his peers look at the same scenario/context and venture an opinion about it.
 
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