Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Dan O.]

The new hoax call evidence also dashes any conspiracy theory that the call was part of a plan to bring the police out to discover the discarded phones and thereby prevent an investigation when thy started tracking the last known location of the missing phones.

{Unless the conspiracy started earlier and the murder was part of it}

 

[carbonjam72]

Well as has been shown no reference to this statement can be found in any of the contemporaneous reports. Dan O. who has done a sterling job of cataloging everything about this case said the first mention was Oct. 16th of bleach receipts and that wasn't a quote of Mignini.

I was following the case at that time and never heard this Mignini at the presser statement.

In short there is absolutely nothing to verify his statement but the record shows no mention.

Now proving a negative is very difficult and no one seems to have the transcript so his statement seems false. Now since we know IIP reads here I would hope if there was proof Mignini said at the presser we would know by now.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p0LXNpYVmQY please go to 9:15 and hear at the press conference 5 days after the murder Mignini says "we have the receipt that shows Amanda Knox purchased bleach to next morning at a local store" and "she went back to the house and cleaned it with bleach"



There is no evidence of any significant clean up but that doesn't change the fact that 7 years after the murder Moore is saying that Mignini made the statement at the presser.



Since you obviously haven't listened to the video or done any research on your own, you will never get it.

You maybe correct. But your claim has no foundation, other than your own insistence that your assumptions must be accepted. With all due respect, I decline the privilege.
Please provide proof that Mignini said it. There was no mention until the 16th. As someone else pointed out the smell of bleach story didn't come out until the 8th.



No mostly someone affirms they heard the same story from ultimately the same source.



What is my spin? The story is about losing professional objectivity.



She is a professional writer. So is Barbie, Vogt and Vander Leek or whatever his name is.



I provide a video with Moore saying exactly that Mignini claimed bleach receipts and you don't even bother to look at it. You don't bother to support any of your claims. Maybe you read about the Milan cop in a comment to Perugia Shock. Or maybe you read it on Ground Report written by an anonymous "reporter".



I wish you would do some research and stop attacking me but rather the points. For a day I've put up what Moore says as clear as day. You seem to be in deep denial.

You seem to think any questioning of any aspect of a book written by a journalist is beyond the pale. I've stated that even if all the events are accurate that still doesn't mean Rudi did it. I doubt you've even bothered to read Nina's account. According to the book Diaz didn't even suspect Rudi until he was in the paper about the murder. Her name is supposed to be Madu Diaz yet I couldn't find anyone with that name in Perugia.

For the record, I'm pretty sure I've seen the video of Moore making that statement in regard to Mignini at the press conference, and that's probably what I was remembering when I raised the question at the beginning of this exchange we're having.

Secondly, you're writing; "as has been shown, no reference to this statement can be found in any of the contemporaneous reports." Excuse me, but all that "has been shown" is that we don't have enough data to draw a conclusion, because we weren't there, and don't have a report or transcript of the event to go on. That doesn't equate to false.

The clearest flaw in your logic is demonstrated when your wrote this: "Now proving a negative is very difficult and no one seems to have the transcript so his statement seems false."

Just think about what you wrote again, slowly. "...no one seems to have the transcript so his statement seems false.
This is an absence of information, so you imply error or fabrication, because the information is unpalatable. Again, you twist my meaning when you claim I'm suggesting: "You seem to think any questioning of any aspect of a book written by a journalist is beyond the pale. ". That's an absurd overreach, I've said no such thing. What I have said is professional journalists, high quality proven pros, should be taken as more credible, until there is information that shows they made a mistake. BUt accusing them of fabrication, as you seem to be, and Michael B have done, is tantamount to a professional fraud, and you ought at least have some evidence beyond, 'well I couldn't find anything to support it, therefore they made it up'.
I find myself writing in block paragraphs, to try to avoid having you splice up my comments, and argue elements out of context.

The NY Times article, IIRC, was about journalists skirting the edge of advocacy, not about losing objectivity. That's your spin to support your 'Nina' thesis. And I think Nina Burleigh would be quite surprised to be compared to Barbie Nadeau or Andrea Vogt, and that all of them would cringe at being lumped in with a avowed scoundrel like Van der Leek. But you see no gradations in professional quality, right? The term "Journalist" covers all, no need to consider the reliability of the source?
I have read Nina's book since you doubt I had, and also Candace, and Amanda's and Raf's and Preston/Spezi MOF and others, and articles, videos, and these boards, and gone into some of the voluminous records on the wikis (avoiding the hate sites when possible). So no, I disagree that our difference of opinion relates to my lack of research.

I don't consider questioning your logic as 'attacking you', and I hope you won't think its meant as such. Best I can do on this.

 

[carbonjam72]

Dave I've given the vid url several times and he clear as day says that Mignini at the case closed presser made the claim. I'm not asking for you to accept it/ I'm asking for you to watch it and testify.

CJ made a claim with absolutely no backing. Dan O. said no mention of the bleach receipts surfaced until the 16th or 9 days later.

It is important when a source treasured by one side or the other dispenses inaccurate stuff.

In your head, only in your head.

 

[Dan O.]

In the time frame up to the 16th, there were three official entries into Raffaele's apartment.

• November 6, Raffaele is taken back to his apartment barefoot. The police recover the large kitchen knife from within a closed drawer. A search warrant is drawn up after they return.
• November 8, in police documents it is stated that the apartment has been sealed for 3 days and that it smelled of bleach.
• November 16, police return with video camera and record bleach under sink and receipts in empty shopping bags.

If there is a mention of a reciept at the "case closed" press statement, when could they have acquired it? We're the police inside Raffaele's apartment on the 5th before his arrest?

 

[Grinder]

I saw on the page you linked to a list of false statements that were made consisting the Kercher murder case.

Grinder says that neither the police nor the prosecutor made a statement to the effect that bleach receipts had been recovered from Sollecito's apartment. I didn't see that Sfarzo was making a claim that PLE had claimed that bleach receipts existed, it seemed that Sfarzo was only making a claim that this particular false claim had been made by somebody, presumably the press.

Up to now I have taken Grinder's word for it that PLE had not claimed that bleach receipts had been recovered. But I decided to have a look for myself and went looking for a transcript of the "caso chiuso" press conference to see what was said there and I couldn't find one. I did learn that Mignini wasn't at that conference. Arturo De Felice, the Perugian chief of police ran the news conference. So does anybody have a link to a transcription of this news conference?

ETA: It seems unlikely that the PLE would have claimed that they had found receipts for bleach when they were out and about talking to merchants trying to figure out where the bleach came from.

Thanks for the effort to find the truth. Your logic is clear as day that they would have had the receipt in hand (copy) and shown it to the stores for comparison if the store name wasn't there.

The main point is that Moore made a big deal about the "fact" that Mignini himself told this lie right from the beginning. For those that watch it, it is clearly stated that Moore knew the case was false because of the evidence didn't match the crime and he knew it was intensely false when he heard the pronouncements at the press conference by Mignini about the bleach purchase and clean up.

I too would love the transcript or video of the conference as Anglo insists it verifies his theory of text messages.

Frank's page from 2011 doesn't have anything to do with this discussion.

 

[Grinder]

Here are some of the coverage of the "case closed" presser:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492410/Meredith-Foxy-Knoxy-brought-strange-men-house.html

http://seattlest.com/2007/11/07/from_the_papers.php

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/the_realm_of_the_sensless
(comment on the 16th as per Dan O.'s info mentions bleach no receipt)

No mention of bleach much less a receipt from the morning after tied to Amanda.

The only mention of bleach before the 9th is referring to the bottle Raf is holding in the MySpace pic.

Dave has determined Mignini wasn't even there. Moore's statement is false. Clemente's statement about the knife being ruled out by the prosecution expert is false.

The two interview vids should be watched for errors.

 

[Kauffer]

Here are some of the coverage of the "case closed" presser:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-492410/Meredith-Foxy-Knoxy-brought-strange-men-house.html

http://seattlest.com/2007/11/07/from_the_papers.php

http://slog.thestranger.com/2007/11/the_realm_of_the_sensless
(comment on the 16th as per Dan O.'s info mentions bleach no receipt)

No mention of bleach much less a receipt from the morning after tied to Amanda.

The only mention of bleach before the 9th is referring to the bottle Raf is holding in the MySpace pic.

Dave has determined Mignini wasn't even there. Moore's statement is false. Clemente's statement about the knife being ruled out by the prosecution expert is false.

The two interview vids should be watched for errors.

I have no doubt that Moore and Clemente have occasionally over reached in their discussion of the evidence but Moore's analysis of the case is fundamentally sound. He passed from disinterested observer to advocate a long time ago, but I'm sure he would willingly concede a factual error if shown the evidence.

 

[Kauffer]

In the time frame up to the 16th, there were three official entries into Raffaele's apartment.

• November 6, Raffaele is taken back to his apartment barefoot. The police recover the large kitchen knife from within a closed drawer. A search warrant is drawn up after they return.
• November 8, in police documents it is stated that the apartment has been sealed for 3 days and that it smelled of bleach.
• November 16, police return with video camera and record bleach under sink and receipts in empty shopping bags.

If there is a mention of a reciept at the "case closed" press statement, when could they have acquired it? We're the police inside Raffaele's apartment on the 5th before his arrest?

Might there have been other documented or undocumented entrances to Raffaele's flat between his arrest and the 16th? Wasn't someone in his flat on the night of the 5th/6th interfering with his computer? Could this reported smell of bleach have been caused by chemicals used by the CSIs?

 

[Grinder]

I have no doubt that Moore and Clemente have occasionally over reached in their discussion of the evidence but Moore's analysis of the case is fundamentally sound. He passed from disinterested observer to advocate a long time ago, but I'm sure he would willingly concede a factual error if shown the evidence.

AFAIK he only added the "credibility" of being a FBI agent. My the time he became involved the bs of the case was clear. Do you have something he added to the analysis?

I am very skeptical of his informer theory as it based on nothing verifiable.

The problem with them overreaching on occasion is determining exactly when. This is also true of writers. When some of the writing doesn't match testimony under oath, it diminishes other unverified statements and when the writer has touched or gone over the advocacy line even more so.

 

[Grinder]

Might there have been other documented or undocumented entrances to Raffaele's flat between his arrest and the 16th? Wasn't someone in his flat on the night of the 5th/6th interfering with his computer? Could this reported smell of bleach have been caused by chemicals used by the CSIs?

There has been quite a bit of speculation/evidence that the police entered his flat while was being interrogated hopefully Dan O. will produce any facts.

On the stand the defense counsel was able to get the cop to say that maybe he just smelled "clean". Raf's maid had cleaned that day or the day before and used non bleach cleaning stuff - lis___ ?

ETA the police smelled bleach on the 6th but nothing of that visit was reported until later and no receipts were discovered, obviously.

 

[zotz]

AFAIK he only added the "credibility" of being a FBI agent. My the time he became involved the bs of the case was clear. Do you have something he added to the analysis?

I am very skeptical of his informer theory as it based on nothing verifiable.

The problem with them overreaching on occasion is determining exactly when. This is also true of writers. When some of the writing doesn't match testimony under oath, it diminishes other unverified statements and when the writer has touched or gone over the advocacy line even more so.

Hellmann judged AK and RS to be innocent of the crime. Doesn't that make him an "advocate"? Haven't you said that you believe them to be innocent? You are using the term "advocate" as a pejorative. We all have opinions. The most dishonest are the ones that write books claiming to be impartial when it is obvious that they are not.

 

[Grinder]

Hellmann judged AK and RS to be innocent of the crime. Doesn't that make him an "advocate"? Haven't you said that you believe them to be innocent? You are using the term "advocate" as a pejorative. We all have opinions. The most dishonest are the ones that write books claiming to be impartial when it is obvious that they are not.

Hellmann wasn't an advocate. In journalism advocacy isn't looked upon as an asset.

There is no doubt in my mind that the Italians didn't prove BARD their guilt.

Is that last sentence a reference to Nina claiming she wasn't an advocate?

 

[Planigale]

There has been quite a bit of speculation/evidence that the police entered his flat while was being interrogated hopefully Dan O. will produce any facts.

On the stand the defense counsel was able to get the cop to say that maybe he just smelled "clean". Raf's maid had cleaned that day or the day before and used non bleach cleaning stuff - lis___ ?

It is interesting no one has asked what is the smell of bleach? In particular what lingering smell would there be.

Bleach could either be hydrogen peroxide, which would produce oxygen and water both pretty odourless, or a chlorine based agent such as hypochlorite that would produce chlorine gas. This is 'pungent' causing pain, watering of the eyes, etc. Chlorine gas is reactive and would not linger for long.

Household bleaches or other cleaning agents may contain clean odours such as pine or lemon. (Usually with non bleach containing cleaning agents). One question I have asked myself is how familiar with household cleaning agents would an Italian male police officer be? Could he distinguish between a bleach, and a non-bleach household cleaner?

 

[Grinder]

It is interesting no one has asked what is the smell of bleach? In particular what lingering smell would there be.

Bleach could either be hydrogen peroxide, which would produce oxygen and water both pretty odourless, or a chlorine based agent such as hypochlorite that would produce chlorine gas. This is 'pungent' causing pain, watering of the eyes, etc. Chlorine gas is reactive and would not linger for long.

Household bleaches or other cleaning agents may contain clean odours such as pine or lemon. (Usually with non bleach containing cleaning agents). One question I have asked myself is how familiar with household cleaning agents would an Italian male police officer be? Could he distinguish between a bleach, and a non-bleach household cleaner?

sorry I can't find the response to the defense cross but it went much as you laid out. He couldn't say if it was bleach or "clean". Another question is if it were bleach what would they have been cleaning on the 5th? If they had repeatedly cleaned the knife with bleach there is no way the alleged DNA would have survived intact.

My bleach cleaning smell disappears shortly after the use. No more than a few hours.

ETA - Frequently Asked Question #1 AmandaKnox page

The pro-guilt group has been attempting to create suspicion about bleach in Raffaele’s apartment for years. Inspector Armando Finzi testified there was a strong smell on November 6, 2007 when he searched the apartment and collected the knife. Some used this to insinuate the knife had been cleaned with bleach. No bleach was ever found on the knife. As far as the smell in the apartment, Raffaele had a maid. The “smell of bleach” merely turned out to be a “clean smell,” not surprising since his maid had cleaned the apartment thoroughly on Nov. 5 with Lysoform, which has a very strong smell. The prosecution produced no test that proved the house had been bleached. Lysoform contains no bleach. The police simply smelled a recently cleaned apartment. Luminol testing in Raffaele’s apartment revealed no evidence of any clean up and no evidence of any kind was found to suggest their had been a clean-up there.

 

[Grinder]

From the AmandaKnoxcase.com site:

Bleach Receipts?

The police searched Raffaele’s apartment again on November 16, 2007 and went through plastic shopping bags to examine receipts. The police took video of the receipts that were found and held them in front of the camera so it is possible to see the dates on each one. There were five receipts found. All of the receipts are from 2007. They are dated February 11, March 17, March 21, May, and November 4. None of the receipts show any bleach was purchased. The November 4, 2007 receipt was for pizza.

 

[Dan O.]

Might there have been other documented or undocumented entrances to Raffaele's flat between his arrest and the 16th? Wasn't someone in his flat on the night of the 5th/6th interfering with his computer? Could this reported smell of bleach have been caused by chemicals used by the CSIs?

In the photos under the sink, the trap has been removed from the drain pipe. The trap has the specific purpose to trap water in the "U" section which then prevents sewer gases from coming up out of the pipe. With the trap removed and the house sealed for a couple of days, the whole house is going to smell like decaying feces. Personally, I can tell the difference. But can a cop that may have never opened a bottle of bleach tell?

ETA: There certainly could have been other accesses. Amanda's cottage had been sealed on the 7th yet there is evidence from multiple sources including a comment to the press before the fact that the cottage would be entered on the night of the 13th.

 

[Dan O.]

From the AmandaKnoxcase.com site:

Bleach Receipts?

The police searched Raffaele’s apartment again on November 16, 2007 and went through plastic shopping bags to examine receipts. The police took video of the receipts that were found and held them in front of the camera so it is possible to see the dates on each one. There were five receipts found. All of the receipts are from 2007. They are dated February 11, March 17, March 21, May, and November 4. None of the receipts show any bleach was purchased. The November 4, 2007 receipt was for pizza.

Grinder, who is claiming that there was an actual receipt for bleach purchased about the time of the murder? The only claims I've seen from here is that the police were saying that they had the receipts. In fact, they were quite explicit claims that they had two receipts for purchase of bleach at two specific times.

It is clear that if these claims were made by the police they were lies.

 

[Bill Williams]

Hellmann judged AK and RS to be innocent of the crime. Doesn't that make him an "advocate"? Haven't you said that you believe them to be innocent? You are using the term "advocate" as a pejorative. We all have opinions. The most dishonest are the ones that write books claiming to be impartial when it is obvious that they are not.

I am in the position of agreeing with Grinder about Moore's position on Rudy as informer, but disagreeing with him on what you point out......

.... namely, that simply because someone takes a position they've hopelessly lost their objectivity.

 

[MichaelB]

In the photos under the sink, the trap has been removed from the drain pipe. The trap has the specific purpose to trap water in the "U" section which then prevents sewer gases from coming up out of the pipe. With the trap removed and the house sealed for a couple of days, the whole house is going to smell like decaying feces. Personally, I can tell the difference. But can a cop that may have never opened a bottle of bleach tell?

ETA: There certainly could have been other accesses. Amanda's cottage had been sealed on the 7th yet there is evidence from multiple sources including a comment to the press before the fact that the cottage would be entered on the night of the 13th.

This article on Sunday November 11 says on Tuesday they'll be going to the cottage to use luminol. http://www.corriere.it/cronache/07_novembre_11/delitto_perugia_testimone_svizzero.shtml

 

[Bill Williams]

The issue with Moore and his opinion that Rudy might have been a police informant is this:

It is decidedly NOT whether or not he could convince us here on this thread of that..... none of us have the necessary professional experience to rate an opinion.

The issue is: could he convince his peers? Our job is to simply eatch from the bleachers.