Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

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It seems as if you think that as a reporter that Nina shouldn't have an opinion. I think Nina's perspective is legitimate. She saw the evidence and how the stories surrounding Amanda etc. we're mostly bogus. And to her, this was the story. Do you think that is wrong Grinder?

What does wrong mean? It is not acceptable for a journalist. As I demonstrated she used positioning of CT's informing Napoleoni that the invasion happened between 1 and 4 am (seems Italians only use sun dials and never know a time during the night) and then has CT seeing "Rudi" at Domus and Merlin. There is no evidence that CT talked with police at all as his girlfriend called 911 until interviewed for the murder trials.

Here's a quote from the NY Times article:

With her emphatic defense of Ms. Knox (criticizing the “appalling” treatment of her by the Italian courts and news media, insisting “the evidence didn’t exist,” that the “jury rubber-stamped a conviction”), Ms. Burleigh seemed at times to move from journalist to advocate, treading what she knew, as a longtime reporter and author, was a dangerous line.
 
Amanda's June 9, 2015 court date, not much to be found -

Does Amanda have a court session today over the libel/defamation charges or some such? I thought it was scheduled for Jun 9?

Anyone heard anything?

Well, I'm sad to say the only reference I've seen as to events going on in Amanda's new libel trial that is supposed to have started yesterday, is from one of the hate sites, I forget which one, I know they're different but I don't have the energy to invest in their nuances of nuttiness today.

Anyway, here is their update:

Breaking news. Amanda Knox's second calunnia trial starts today in Florence; we will report on this and the Sollecito book trial now confirmed as a "go". Despite the felon Knox's false claims of official crimes including the Interrogation Hoax and despite Oggi already on trial for repeating some, the Knox paperback version is published today in the US and UK. New charges for Knox are anticipated in due course. For latest update on hapless Supreme Court saga see here.

I was surprised to not hear a peep about this from any source, or maybe my googling skills are sub par. I'd be curious if anyone found anything more.

Can't be too much longer for the acquittal motivations to be released.
 
As for Nina and her reporting, there is an interesting article about her coverage of the case from the NY Times. The focus is whether she became too much of an advocate and lost her credibility as a neutral reporter. The article states that Nina went in this direction:
Mr. Guede was a Dickensian character, a poor immigrant from Ivory Coast adopted, then rejected, by one of Perugia’s richest families. His bloodied footprints had been found around Ms. Kercher’s body, and he had been convicted before the Knox trial began. Prosecutors argued that Ms. Knox and Mr. Sollecito had acted with him.
But Burleigh focused on Mr. Guede’s crimes in the weeks before Ms. Kercher’s murder. He had broken into a nursery school, a law office and another apartment, in each case, making himself at home: turning up the heat, preparing a meal, taking a few things — and if confronted, defending himself with a chair or a quick excuse.


The article is available so you can draw your own conclusions but it reads that Nina told the writer the above. She clearly had a POV and agenda and wrote her novel to back her own theory or view.
Read the section on Tramontano . She tells the story out of sequence making it appear Napoleoni knew of this home invasion before the murder. She has the event and a call to the police (done by CT's girlfriend), a conversation with Napoleoni and then seeing Rudi at Domus and Merlin a few days later.

Truly, there are only two types of authors on this matter.

1) those who clearly have a POV and agenda and write their novels to back their own theory or view.

2) those who try to mask #1 by pretending to be objective, or faking a neutral point of view.​

In my view, John Follain's book is solidly in #2. I've never understood, really, the problem with #1 as if it is a reason to discount the work.
 
1. Yes, I agree I confused Prato for Diaz in tesla's post of his email exchange with Nina.

Good

I disagree with you that she has an obligation to fully publish her work product. It's hers and her employers, their work, their effort, it belongs to them. Although I do agree it could have great value to the public and people interested in trying to follow the best available research, if they chose to share it. (I believe this is a current defect in copyright law, but that's a different thread topic, so lets not go there).

Did I say she should fully publish her work product? Please show where I said that. I believe that when an author produces a unique story not corroborated by any other source it is reasonable for a reader to request more information. In this case Nina admits to having being "focused on Mr. Guede’s crimes" as a main theme. There is absolutely nothing that ties Rudi to Diaz except the mysterious watch.

The Tramontano story doesn't seem credible in that Rudi kept going to Domus and Merlin and there is no interview with Pisco. Why didn't she get him on record?

Read Rudi's German statements, both Skypes and diary. He mentions the clubs in an interesting way. If any of that info was disclosed before CT's statements that would be very interesting.

2. I believe you mistake Del Prato's being told by a police woman, with what actually occurred in regard to the matter the police woman was relating. The police woman could have gotten an inaccurate or incomplete story, relayed it to Del Prato, and Del Prato could have repeated that story in complete honesty, yet still have been factually incorrect as to events that she herself did not directly witness.

Sure.

I believe this issue is called "HEAR-SAY"? Del Prato does not appear to have directly witnessed the events culminating in Rudy's release from police, but she did apparently get told a version by the police lady. The issue would seem to be how to confirm the police lady's version. I think Nina also quoted a police officer from Milan (a man, and by name IIRC) saying Rudy got released after a call with Perugian authorities, and that "these things happen". I think that's a different nuance in the story. I don't feel obligated to accept your conclusions on this point, thanks.

Of course she didn't witness it herself. It would elevate the conversation if you would actually produce links and specifics. I give you testimony under oath and you provide "I think Nina also quoted a police officer from Milan"

The comparison to Nara is correct, imo. You're using bare testimony itself, as justification for a claim of an unwitnessed fact, without any supporting cooboration, and the presence of conflicting accounts.

There are no conflicting accounts that have been provided. Prato saying she was told they released him because there wasn't enough reason to hold him is totally credible. Nara's statements make no sense and she didn't come forward for months and only then went on TV. She most likely couldn't have heard anything much less the running. She had dates mixed up.

Prato credible. Nara not.

Look, I think you're projecting your own inclinations onto Nina, and everyone else. That's not a knock, I think its common. It takes real care to discount our own prejudices in any situation, Not at all a clear assessment, IUAM. Ok, now go ahead and express your outrage at the mere suggestion.

I don't know which account you're referring to regarding Tremantano, but I'll try to take a look at both. I agree this is relevant, and revealing regarding Rudy, and the police. (IIRC, Napoleone was only recently promoted to head of homicide at the time of the Kercher case, and IIRC it was her first case? - but I may be wrong on this).

I love me some Nina. You think in the month between Tramontano and being "promoted", if that is true which you provide no backing for, she was working graveyard and taking 6 am interviews with victims. CT's girlfriend called the police and was told to file a report. There is nothing in the record that the police even went to his place. That whole meme is to further the PLE had his MO down or they were covering for him.

I know from the article that Nins had a theory on Rudi and I believe she crossed the line from journalist to defense advocate in trying to prove it.

Did she interview Pisco?
 
'Public Opinion' included UK DNA Pioneer Peter Gill speaking about his doubts on Italian television just days before the final ISC decision. He may not have been an official court witness but he would be hard to ignore as far as reasonable doubt.

I wouldn't say public opinion alone freed her. I think public opinion in cases like this shine light on problems in the case. The court is then more likely to look into those problems to see if they are legitimate. In many cases, large public support has done little to change a WC's status. There is no way public opinion can replace really good lawyers. It helps though, especially when it is someone like Peter Gill.

In the Ryan Ferguson case his top supports like to claim credit for getting him freed, and I'm sure they helped, but without his lawyer Kathleen Zellner he would still be in prison.

Michael Morton and Debra Milke are a few more examples where tireless pro-bono lawyers finally got them freed.

Before the Cassation Ct's recent March 27th exoneration of Amanda & Raffaele, Italian blogger Frank Sfarzo was the only person (to my knowledge) who had predicted the court's exoneration ruling.

Neither side expected a 100% exoneration of Amanda & Raffaele, so Italian blogger Frank Sfarzo was the only person to make such a prediction, which Frank Sfarzo had put at an 80% probability, and Sfarzo had based his prediction upon the changing public opinion in Italy.

Frank Sfarzo cited Peter Gill's appearance on Italian TV as one of the factors which had shifted Italian public opinion towards innocence. Raffaele's family may have also hired a PR firm to help change public opinion?

In any event, whether true or not, Frank Sfarzo was certainly under the impression that changing public opinion in Italy was an important factor that had helped influence the court's March 27th judgment.

Frank Sfarzo's successful prediction may be circumstantial evidence that public opinion is important in Italian trials, but since Italian judges and jurors are freely allowed to watch TV programs and read newspapers on their case, that public opinion influences their decisions isn't very surprising.

It probably also didn't hurt Amanda & Raffaele's chances that there has always been zero credible evidence against them in this case, but that minor inconvenience didn't stop quite a few judges and jurors from finding them both guilty in earlier trials.
:)
 
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Well, I'm sad to say the only reference I've seen as to events going on in Amanda's new libel trial that is supposed to have started yesterday, is from one of the hate sites, I forget which one, I know they're different but I don't have the energy to invest in their nuances of nuttiness today.

Anyway, here is their update:



I was surprised to not hear a peep about this from any source, or maybe my googling skills are sub par. I'd be curious if anyone found anything more.

Can't be too much longer for the acquittal motivations to be released.

The only thing I have seen is this reference to Raffaele's case:

"Amanda Knox’s former flame, Raffaele Sollecito is back in the news. It is being reported that an Italian judge has set the date for his next trial to start on May 13, 2016. Sollecito is going back to court to face a defamation lawsuit from statements made in his book, Honor Bound."

http://www.examiner.com/article/amanda-knox-ex-boyfriend-due-back-to-court-may-2016
 
Truly, there are only two types of authors on this matter.

1) those who clearly have a POV and agenda and write their novels to back their own theory or view.

2) those who try to mask #1 by pretending to be objective, or faking a neutral point of view.​

In my view, John Follain's book is solidly in #2. I've never understood, really, the problem with #1 as if it is a reason to discount the work.

There can't be an author that doesn't join one camp or the other? Nina, Graham and Dempsey clearly joined the FOA/IIP camp with Dempsey being all in. Nina demonstrated this by telling Tesla that it must be a guilter questioning the Diaz info. Dempsey participated in Knox forums and rallies etc. and clearly from very early on was an advocate.

As the NY Times story states there is a line that when crossed diminishes the value of the writing. When one of these writers using a form that allows for "creative" dialog etc. it is improper to use details unverified to make a case, IMO. I don't think Rudi was on a crime spree. I read his interviews etc. and it seems clear he was working a variety of jobs until just before the murder.
 
Well, I'm sad to say the only reference I've seen as to events going on in Amanda's new libel trial that is supposed to have started yesterday, is from one of the hate sites, I forget which one, I know they're different but I don't have the energy to invest in their nuances of nuttiness today.

Anyway, here is their update:



I was surprised to not hear a peep about this from any source, or maybe my googling skills are sub par. I'd be curious if anyone found anything more.

Can't be too much longer for the acquittal motivations to be released.

(ANSA) - FLORENCE, JUNE 10 - Initiate a process to Amanda Knox for slander: in most sentences, even in the first trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, said to have been 'forced' by the police and an interpreter to say that it was the murder house with Patrick Lumumba and to have suffered ill-treatment by agents even. Circumstances considered slander by the prosecutor of Perugia, who opened a file then finished in Florence because of the injured parties would the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini from Perugia.
http://www.gazzettadiparma.it/news/italia-mondo/279734/Meredith--iniziato-processo-per-calunnia.html

Started before the court of Florence a libel trial Amanda Knox that in most statements, even in the first trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, said to have been 'forced' by police investigators and an interpreter to say that was in the house of the crime along with Patrick Lumumba, who was involved in the investigation precisely because of the phrases of the American and then recognized as foreign to each other.
Always Knox, she said to have suffered from the elements, in the days following the murder, strong pressure culminated, he said, even in abuse, so did some statements. For these circumstances related to her, which were classified as slander, the prosecutor in Perugia opened a file. Later before the single judge of Perugia was highlighted that, eventually, between the offended people from slander, there was also the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini as holder of the survey. At this point, being involved a magistrate of Perugia, to the competence dossier was transferred to the court of Florence. After the first hearing of sorting, the next was set at 3 September 2015.
http://www.ansa.it/toscana/notizie/...nze_8a3a9e89-29d2-4db0-9390-5e7e42171993.html

You're welcome.
 
Triumph of the Valkyries

(ANSA) - FLORENCE, JUNE 10 - Initiate a process to Amanda Knox for slander: in most sentences, even in the first trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, said to have been 'forced' by the police and an interpreter to say that it was the murder house with Patrick Lumumba and to have suffered ill-treatment by agents even. Circumstances considered slander by the prosecutor of Perugia, who opened a file then finished in Florence because of the injured parties would the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini from Perugia.
http://www.gazzettadiparma.it/news/italia-mondo/279734/Meredith--iniziato-processo-per-calunnia.html

Started before the court of Florence a libel trial Amanda Knox that in most statements, even in the first trial for the murder of Meredith Kercher, said to have been 'forced' by police investigators and an interpreter to say that was in the house of the crime along with Patrick Lumumba, who was involved in the investigation precisely because of the phrases of the American and then recognized as foreign to each other.
Always Knox, she said to have suffered from the elements, in the days following the murder, strong pressure culminated, he said, even in abuse, so did some statements. For these circumstances related to her, which were classified as slander, the prosecutor in Perugia opened a file. Later before the single judge of Perugia was highlighted that, eventually, between the offended people from slander, there was also the prosecutor Giuliano Mignini as holder of the survey. At this point, being involved a magistrate of Perugia, to the competence dossier was transferred to the court of Florence. After the first hearing of sorting, the next was set at 3 September 2015.
http://www.ansa.it/toscana/notizie/...nze_8a3a9e89-29d2-4db0-9390-5e7e42171993.html

You're welcome.

Vixen, I feel we've had a breakthrough. Thank you so much for providing something useful!

btw, I wonder if the acquittal motivation report will have any effect on these libel proceedings? (Considering that Dr Mignini and the police are likely to be heavily criticized for their investigation, and denial of rights to attorneys, failure to record the disputed interrogations, and so forth - my guess anyway)
 
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Does anyone have evidence that the police officially claimed there were bleach receipts from the day after? I'm not referring to stories that tell of the receipts from police sources but actual quotes from the police or written record.
 
Does anyone have evidence that the police officially claimed there were bleach receipts from the day after? I'm not referring to stories that tell of the receipts from police sources but actual quotes from the police or written record.

Didn't they actually say this at their "case closed" conference? I thought Mignini was on record talking about bleach receipts?
 
Didn't they actually say this at their "case closed" conference? I thought Mignini was on record talking about bleach receipts?

I read those reports at the time and again later and do not recall it being reported.

Is there a transcript of that press conference? Michael B?

I'm not interested in HEARSAY :p but rather a direct report from someone that was there or has the actual transcript or video/audio of the conference.

ETA just another search "Amanda Knox" and bleach (receipt) from Nov. 2 to Nov. 8 and nothing comes up.

Does anybody actually believe that if the police reported at the "case closed" presser that they had bleach receipts it wouldn't make the news within two days?

When looking at reports without receipt we get hits for Raf's MySpace clever and bottle pic. To me this is the same kind of "evidence" used to prove Rudi was on a crime spree. He has a watch and there is an unverified story of stolen watch therefore Rudi stole it. There a picture of Raf's with a cleaver and bleach bottle therefore he used bleach to clean the murder scene.
 
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Vixen, I feel we've had a breakthrough. Thank you so much for providing something useful!

btw, I wonder if the acquittal motivation report will have any effect on these libel proceedings? (Considering that Dr Mignini and the police are likely to be heavily criticized for their investigation, and denial of rights to attorneys, failure to record the disputed interrogations, and so forth - my guess anyway)

According to ABC News via Associated Press, Carlos Vedova is "not worried", as statute of limitations, including all appeals, runs out Oct 2016.
http://abcnews.go.com/International...598?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

How does that work if someone is arrested the day before the SOL runs out?
 
There's more to me than meets the eye ;)

Here's the report from ABC/AP:

QUOTE:
"American Amanda Knox Faces Trial in Italy for Slander
MILAN — Jun 10, 2015, 2:42 PM ET

American Amanda Knox, who was exonerated by Italy's highest court of her roommate's brutal murder after multiple trials, is facing a new trial in Italy on a charge of slandering police.

Knox is charged with slander for testifying that her false accusation that a Congolese bar owner murdered her roommate was coerced. The false accusation led to Knox's conviction of slander of the Congolese man in the main murder trial, the only charge that stuck.

The police slander trial opened Tuesday. Knox is not expected to attend, but prosecution witnesses will be heard in September when the trial resumes.

Knox' defense lawyer Carlo Dalla Vedova said Wednesday he is "not worried" about the case, noting that the statute of limitations runs out in October 2016, requiring exhaustion of all appeals."

From Carlo Dalla Vedova's statement, it appears this case is a slam dunk to be dismissed due to statute of limitations.

What I want to know, is why Knox can't press charges against Mignini in a US court, for the abuse she has received in Italy? At a minimum, request that charges be pressed against Mignini in Italy?

I'm sick of Amanda and Raf playing defense against the mad Mignini. I want that lying maniac in court as a defendant, where he belongs.


You got to be kidding me, Ninja'd by Vixen?

("Teenage Ninja Mutant Vixens", please, nobody steal that).
 
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Didn't they actually say this at their "case closed" conference? I thought Mignini was on record talking about bleach receipts?

It's one of those "Chinese whispers" that changes meaning as it passes down the line. All police said originally, was they had two receipts. The bleach part was speculation, as they smelt bleach on entering Raf's apartment.
 
1. Yes, I agree I confused Prato for Diaz in tesla's post of his email exchange with Nina. I also agree with you that Nina undoubtedly has her own original interview notes with Del Prato as well, since that's what she does: actual journalism.

I disagree with you that she has an obligation to fully publish her work product. It's hers and her employers, their work, their effort, it belongs to them. Although I do agree it could have great value to the public and people interested in trying to follow the best available research, if they chose to share it. (I believe this is a current defect in copyright law, but that's a different thread topic, so lets not go there).

2. I believe you mistake Del Prato's being told by a police woman, with what actually occurred in regard to the matter the police woman was relating. The police woman could have gotten an inaccurate or incomplete story, relayed it to Del Prato, and Del Prato could have repeated that story in complete honesty, yet still have been factually incorrect as to events that she herself did not directly witness.

I believe this issue is called "HEAR-SAY"? Del Prato does not appear to have directly witnessed the events culminating in Rudy's release from police, but she did apparently get told a version by the police lady. The issue would seem to be how to confirm the police lady's version. I think Nina also quoted a police officer from Milan (a man, and by name IIRC) saying Rudy got released after a call with Perugian authorities, and that "these things happen". I think that's a different nuance in the story. I don't feel obligated to accept your conclusions on this point, thanks.

The comparison to Nara is correct, imo. You're using bare testimony itself, as justification for a claim of an unwitnessed fact, without any supporting cooboration, and the presence of conflicting accounts.

3. I remember reading this article from the NY Times, but I don't recall the interpretation you wish to impose. You seem to have some issue with Nina unrelated to her actual writing. I think every writer takes a position on something where the facts lead them to a conclusion. It's a whole other motivation to say someone is fabricating stories (as Michael B suggested with Nina's 'pounds of pasta' account from the nursery school), or altering time lines to provide an intentionally (or unintentionally) misleading understanding of the pattern of fact.

Look, I think you're projecting your own inclinations onto Nina, and everyone else. That's not a knock, I think its common. It takes real care to discount our own prejudices in any situation, Not at all a clear assessment, IUAM. Ok, now go ahead and express your outrage at the mere suggestion.

I don't know which account you're referring to regarding Tremantano, but I'll try to take a look at both. I agree this is relevant, and revealing regarding Rudy, and the police. (IIRC, Napoleone was only recently promoted to head of homicide at the time of the Kercher case, and IIRC it was her first case? - but I may be wrong on this).

I'm pretty sure that Grinder is talking about this article in the Times by KATE ZERNIKE
written OCTOBER 7, 2011 Between Journalist and Advocate: The Amanda Knox Case

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2011/10/0...cate-the-amanda-knox-case.html?_r=0&referrer=

"With her emphatic defense of Ms. Knox (criticizing the “appalling” treatment of her by the Italian courts and news media, insisting “the evidence didn’t exist,” that the “jury rubber-stamped a conviction”), Ms. Burleigh seemed at times to move from journalist to advocate, treading what she knew, as a longtime reporter and author, was a dangerous line."
 
What does wrong mean? It is not acceptable for a journalist. As I demonstrated she used positioning of CT's informing Napoleoni that the invasion happened between 1 and 4 am (seems Italians only use sun dials and never know a time during the night) and then has CT seeing "Rudi" at Domus and Merlin. There is no evidence that CT talked with police at all as his girlfriend called 911 until interviewed for the murder trials.

Here's a quote from the NY Times article:

With her emphatic defense of Ms. Knox (criticizing the “appalling” treatment of her by the Italian courts and news media, insisting “the evidence didn’t exist,” that the “jury rubber-stamped a conviction”), Ms. Burleigh seemed at times to move from journalist to advocate, treading what she knew, as a longtime reporter and author, was a dangerous line.

You seem to suggest that Nina didn't talk to CT? I can't remember what she wrote I her book about CT. I read the NY Times article your quote is pulled.

I'm curios, do you feel she fabricated or colored her stories with some exaggerations?
 
It's one of those "Chinese whispers" that changes meaning as it passes down the line. All police said originally, was they had two receipts. The bleach part was speculation, as they smelt bleach on entering Raf's apartment.

Here's IIP take:

The information below is from truejustice.org. The website that you openly promote. Without any proof whatsoever, bleach receipts are suggested on the site. The site even tries to guess what Raffaele may have been searching for online. No proof was ever offered of any bleach receipts or of Raffale's Google search history. These are lies. This was written so the rumor would continue to be spread about mop buckets and clean up efforts. Of course we all know that never happened.

So do we all agree the police never officially declared they had bleach receipts?

One would think that IIP would mention the "case closed" presser if they had said it then.

Do you have a source for the police declaring they had "receipts"

Btw, after the cross the cop said he may only have smelled "clean". Ridiculous to say they bleached for days but didn't damage the knife DNA and left no traces of bleaching.
 
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