Does Jesus' prediction and acceptance of martyrdom suggest His sincerity?

[Loss Leader]

Lots of allegory and allusions, very little evidence.

If the existence of an afterlife (and the possibility of resurrection) were actually in the Old Testament, Jews would believe it. As it is, we don't. Except for one story where the prophet Elisha brought a boy back from the dead, there's nothing there. Even that is given special meaninglessness by its inclusion in a book of a Prophet. The Torah is the lens through which all christian metaphors must be passed.

 

[Craig B]

Lots of allegory and allusions, very little evidence.

If the existence of an afterlife (and the possibility of resurrection) were actually in the Old Testament, Jews would believe it. As it is, we don't. Except for one story where the prophet Elisha brought a boy back from the dead, there's nothing there. Even that is given special meaninglessness by its inclusion in a book of a Prophet. The Torah is the lens through which all christian metaphors must be passed.

Jews have in fact tried to find a future life in the Torah, but without much success. One ingenious (but completely mad) Talmudic argument for the inference of resurrection in the Torah is cited here.

Where is resurrection hinted at in the Torah? [It reads, Num. xviii. 28]: "And ye shall give thereof the heave-offering of the Lord to Aaron the priest." Should, then, Aaron remain alive forever? He did not even enter into the land of Israel. How, then, could Israel give him heave-offering? Infer from this that he would experience resurrection and Israel would give him heave-offering.

Mmm. But I think later priests were quite happy to receive offerings in Aaron's name, without waiting for the founder of their order to return from the tomb.

To sustain its case the same passage mainly resorts to threats.

The following have no share in the world to come: He who says that there is no allusion in the Torah concerning resurrection, and he who says that the Torah was not given by Heaven, and a follower of Epicurus

For the background to, and extent of, this hostility to Epicurus, see http://www.epicurus.net/en/history.html. Later Jewish writers used "Epicurean" as a synonym for "unbeliever".

 

[dejudge]

....The Hindus, Zoroastrians, Egyptians, and Sumerians all believed in the afterlife. It's only natural that the Hebrews who came from the Arameans thought this way too. It's true that they didn't worship other gods, but they believed in spirits and godlike beings in Genesis.

Nonetheless the evidence is not there, and counter evidence abounds. I've cited the Sadducees, who drew their philosophy from the Torah alone. It is noted by the writers of the Enlightenment, including Voltaire. Here's Gibbon, Decline etc Ch 15.

It is most fascinating that Craig B would openly mis-represent the evidence.

Jews who used the TORAH believed in an AFTER-LIFE.

Craig B conveniently cites the Sadducees but somehow forget to cite the Pharisees and the Essenes.

Examine the writings of Josephus. Of the three major sects of Jews the Pharisees and Essenes did believe in the AFTER-LIFE.

1. Jews believed the Soul was IMMORTAL.

2. Jews believed bad people were punished AFTER death.

1. Examine Wars of the Jews 2.8.11 on the ESSENES

11. For their doctrine is this: That bodies are corruptible, and that the matter they are made of is not permanent; but that the souls are immortal, and continue for ever.............................. good men are bettered in the conduct of their life by the hope they have of reward after their death; and whereby the vehement inclinations of bad men to vice are restrained, by the fear and expectation they are in, that although they should lie concealed in this life, they should suffer immortal punishment after their death.

Now examine Wars of the Jews 2.8.14 on the PHARISEES.


Wars of the Jews 2.8.14

the Pharisees are those who are esteemed most skillful in the exact explication of their laws, and introduce the first sect. These ascribe all to fate [or providence], and to God, and yet allow, that to act what is right, or the contrary, is principally in the power of men, although fate does co-operate in every action.

They say that all souls are incorruptible, but that the souls of good men only are removed into other bodies, - but that the souls of bad men are subject to eternal punishment.

Now examine Acts of the Apostles.

It is also claimed that the Pharisees did teach that there was a Resurrection and that Saul/Paul was a Pharisee who ALSO taught the cert same thing.


Acts 23:6

But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.

Acts 23:8

For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.

The evidence in and out the Bible shows that Jews who used the TORAH did believe in the After life and also the PUNISHMENT of bad people AFTER death.

 

[Foster Zygote]

Lots of allegory and allusions, very little evidence.

If the existence of an afterlife (and the possibility of resurrection) were actually in the Old Testament, Jews would believe it. As it is, we don't. Except for one story where the prophet Elisha brought a boy back from the dead, there's nothing there. Even that is given special meaninglessness by its inclusion in a book of a Prophet. The Torah is the lens through which all christian metaphors must be passed.

As a young evangelical Christian digging deeper into the faith, it came as quite a shock to me that the concept of Heaven and Hell, and eternal existence, were not present in the Jewish roots of Christianity. I'd wager that today, if you were to conduct a survey of Christians, most would assume that Jews have always thought that one's eternal soul goes to either Heaven or Hell after the death of the body.

 

[Craig B]

It is most fascinating that Craig B would openly mis-represent the evidence.

Jews who used the TORAH believed in an AFTER-LIFE.

Craig B conveniently cites the Sadducees but somehow forget to cite the Pharisees and the Essenes.

Examine the writings of Josephus. Of the three major sects of Jews the Pharisees and Essenes did believe in the AFTER-LIFE.

1. Jews believed the Soul was IMMORTAL.

2. Jews believed bad people were punished AFTER death.

1. Examine Wars of the Jews 2.8.11 on the ESSENES


Now examine Wars of the Jews 2.8.14 on the PHARISEES.


Wars of the Jews 2.8.14

Now examine Acts of the Apostles.

It is also claimed that the Pharisees did teach that there was a Resurrection and that Saul/Paul was a Pharisee who ALSO taught the cert same thing.


Acts 23:6

Acts 23:8

The evidence in and out the Bible shows that Jews who used the TORAH did believe in the After life and also the PUNISHMENT of bad people AFTER death.

I never said anything different. In post after post I have said that this was a controversial issue in Jesus' day.

It is Loss Leader who says that Jews don't believe in resurrection because it's not in the Torah. And that's right, in my opinion. It's not in the Torah; Jews who believe in an afterlife may "use" the Torah, but they don't derive that belief from the Torah.

So you are (quite intentionally) misrepresenting me, as is your perennial custom.

 

[dejudge]

I never said anything different. In post after post I have said that this was a controversial issue in Jesus' day.

When was Jesus' day? Which Jesus are you talking about? Your obscurity??

The Pharisee believed in the AFTER LIFE long BEFORE the Jesus story was INVENTED.

By the way, Jesus never had a day in Jewish history--the Jews are still looking for their prophesied Messiah.

..It is Loss Leader who says that Jews don't believe in resurrection because it's not in the Torah. And that's right, in my opinion. It's not in the Torah; Jews who believe in an afterlife may "use" the Torah, but they don't derive that belief from the Torah

So you are (quite intentionally) misrepresenting me, as is your perennial custom.

.

Why can't you accept responsibility for your own fallacious claims?

You stated "Nonetheless the evidence is not there, and counter evidence abounds" that Jews did not believe in the AFTER LIFE.

I have exposed your fallacious claims.

You conveniently showed that the Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection yet FAILED to show that the Pharisees and Essenes did.

You very well knew that Saul/ Paul in Acts and the Pauline Corpus claimed he was a Pharisee and that Pharisees believed in the resurrection.

The Pharisees and Essenes also believed in ETERNAL punishment for bad people AFTER death.

We also know that Jewish people believed there were places called heaven and hell.

Examine the very FIRST verse of the TORAH.

The concept of HEAVEN and HELL can be found in the TORAH.

Genesis 1:1

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Deuteronomy 4:39

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the Lord he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.

Deuteronomy 32:22

For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

The very Jewish Scriptures have exposed all the ill-informed baseless arguments.

 

[Craig B]

You stated "Nonetheless the evidence is not there, and counter evidence abounds" that Jews did not believe in the AFTER LIFE.

The evidence that this is in the Torah isn't there. Different Jews believe all manner of things, but the Torah says nothing about life after death. Obviously you have lost the capacity to understand the written word.

Examine the very FIRST verse of the TORAH.

I have. It says: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. That means he created the sky and the earth, dejudge. It has nothing whatever to do with a future life.

The concept of HEAVEN and HELL can be found in the TORAH.

So you think the sky is where good people go, and the earth is where bad people go, after they die. I see.

 

[dejudge]

The evidence that this is in the Torah isn't there.

Your claim is still fallacious that "the evidence is not there, and counter evidence abounds" that Jews did not believe in the AFTER LIFE.

Evidence ABOUNDS that Jews did believe in the AFTER LIFE and that bad Jews would be punished after death.

Different Jews believe all manner of things, but the Torah says nothing about life after death. Obviously you have lost the capacity to understand the written word.

There is NOTHING in the Torah which states that Jews had no concept of the AFTER LIFE.

You obviously have no capacity to understand that.

I have. It says: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. That means he created the sky and the earth, dejudge. It has nothing whatever to do with a future life.

Genesis 1.1 is NOT the only verse about heaven.

It does not say that the Jews had no concept of the AFTER LIFE.

The Torah has multiple verses about heaven and hell.

So you think the sky is where good people go, and the earth is where bad people go, after they die. I see.

You CONVENIENTLY forget what the assumed Paul the JEW wrote.

Your arguments change like a chameleon to match the 'surroundings'.

A Pauline writer claimed the DEAD in Christ shall rise FIRST and meet the Lord from heaven in the AIR.

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

The Jews, Pharisees, had a concept of the AFTER LIFE.

The supposed Paul claimed to be a JEW and a Pharisee in the Pauline Corpus.

 

[Leumas]

Jewish Concept of Afterlife​

Olam haBa (afterlife) is rarely discussed in Jewish life, ....

Jewish teachings on the subject of afterlife are sparse: The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all.

Since Judaism does believe in the "next world," how does one account for the Torah's silence? ...

The Torah, therefore, might have been silent about afterlife out of a desire to ensure that Judaism not evolve in the direction of the death obsessed Egyptian religion. .....

In Judaism the belief in afterlife is less a leap of faith than a logical outgrowth of other Jewish beliefs. If one believes in a God who is all-powerful and all-just, one cannot believe that this world, in which evil far too often triumphs, is the only arena in which human life exists. For if this existence is the final word, and God permits evil to win, then it cannot be that God is good. Thus, when someone says he or she believes in God but not in afterlife, it would seem that either they have not thought the issue through, or they don't believe in God, or the divine being in whom they believe is amoral or immoral.

According to Judaism, what happens in the next world? ... In heaven, one story teaches, Moses sits and teaches Torah all day long. For the righteous people (the tzaddikim), this is heaven; for the evil people, it is hell....

....Because Judaism believes that God is good, it believes that God rewards good people; it does not believe that Adolf Hitler and his victims share the same fate. ...

 

[Leumas]

I think that someone has "issues" with the Jews.

It was the writers of the god-spiels... Matthew claimed that the Jews damned themselves and their descendants by accepting the responsibility for killing Jesus and called them Murderers of prophets. Also John called the Jews Evil Devils and Sons of Devils.

Matthew 27:25 Then answered all the people, and said, His blood be on us, and on our children.

Lots of allegory and allusions, very little evidence.

If the existence of an afterlife (and the possibility of resurrection) were actually in the Old Testament, Jews would believe it. As it is, we don't. Except for one story where the prophet Elisha brought a boy back from the dead, there's nothing there. Even that is given special meaninglessness by its inclusion in a book of a Prophet. The Torah is the lens through which all christian metaphors must be passed.

The fabricators of the Christian god-spiels had a very determined rebuttal for that.

In the parable of the Wedding Feast the nasty Jews do not come to the wedding of Jesus and murder the prophets who came to announce the wedding of the son of God.

And when God gives up on them he invites the gentiles as a second choice after destroying the Jewish cities.

But even among those second preference invitees, the ones who do not dress up are burned in hell for ever.

Matthew 22:1-15

• 22:1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
  
• 22:2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
  
  Notice the KING and his SON​
• 22:3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
  
  This is of course the Jews​
• 22:4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.
  
  This is the Jews who supposedly repeatedly kept refusing their prophets. ​
• 22:5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:
  
• 22:6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
  
  Here we have the creation of the myth that the Jews killed their prophets​
• 22:7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.
  
  That is why God destroyed the Jewish cities... the Romans were God's armies.​
• 22:8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
  
  The Jews are no good​
• 22:9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.
  
  Go get the gentiles​
• 22:10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
  
• 22:11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
• 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
• 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
  Ones who do not dress up for Jesus are going to burn ETERNALLY IN HELL​
• 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
• 22:15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.
  
  Again those darned Jews want to kill the son of God​

Here Jesus explains that the Jews do not believe in him because they are the SONS OF THE DEVIL and murdering lying evil devils and the proof is that they did not believe in him.

John 8:37-59

• 8:37 I know that ye are Abraham's seed; but ye seek to kill me, because my word hath no place in you.
  
  Those darned Jews who kill Jesus​
• 8:38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.
  
  Jews are not the children of God​
• 8:39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.
  
• 8:40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.
  
  Again Jews kill Jesus​
• 8:41 Ye do the deeds of your father. Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God.
  
• 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
  
  Since they do not believe in Jesus they must not be the children of God​
• 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
  
  Jews cannot understand because they cannot hear Jesus.​
• 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
  
  Jews are children of the devil and will do the debaucheries of the devil and will murder like devils and are liars like devils.​
• 8:45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.
  
• 8:46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?
  
• 8:47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.
  
  Unless you believe in Jesus you are not of God.​
• 8:48 Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a devil?
  
• 8:49 Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
  
  Those darned devilish Jews do not love Jesus.​
• 8:50 And I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
  
• 8:51 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
  
• 8:52Then said the Jews unto him, Now we know that thou hast a devil. Abraham is dead, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my saying, he shall never taste of death.
  
• 8:53 Art thou greater than our father Abraham, which is dead? and the prophets are dead: whom makest thou thyself?
  
• 8:54 Jesus answered, If I honour myself, my honour is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
  
  If you are truly as you say God's people then you HAVE TO believe in Jesus​
• 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.
  
• 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
  
  EVEN ABRAHAM knew Jesus​
• 8:57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?
  
• 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
  
  Here Jesus is saying he is God along with his Father and existed even before Abraham was born​
• 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
  
  
  Again those darned Jews want to kill Jesus if only he did not run away... I wonder why didn't they just stones him the next time they caught him just like they would have done if he did not cower away?
  
  This is like one of those movies where the bad guys are chasing the hero trying to kill him and would have blown him to bits with the barrages of bullets and grenades but when they catch him they go through elaborate machinations to kill him out of which he would eventually escape.​

Here Jesus educates a Jewish leader in how they do not believe in him
because they are Evil through and through for had they been good at all they would not fail to love Jesus.

John 3:9-21

• 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
  
• 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
  
• 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
  
• 3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
  
• 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
  
  Here Jesus is saying he came from heaven down to earth and then will go back to heaven.
  
  Doesn't Jesus know about Elijah?​
• 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
  
• 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
  
• 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
  
  Jesus committing blasphemy but yet wants Jews to believe in him.​
• 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
  
• 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
  More blasphemy​
• 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
  
  Those Evil Jews do not believe in Jesus because they are evil.​
• 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
  
  That is why Jews do not believe in Jesus.... they are EVIL​
• 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
  
  Evil in and out otherwise they would of course be drawn to Jesus​

 

[Craig B]

Jewish Concept of Afterlife​

Olam haBa (afterlife) is rarely discussed in Jewish life, ....

Jewish teachings on the subject of afterlife are sparse: The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all.

Since Judaism does believe in the "next world," how does one account for the Torah's silence? ...

The Torah, therefore, might have been silent about afterlife out of a desire to ensure that Judaism not evolve in the direction of the death obsessed Egyptian religion. .....

That "might" is ridiculous. The Torah is silent on the topic because belief in an afterlife was not a feature of ancient Israelite religion.

Thank you for the passage you cite, which is further evidence on the content of the Torah. As noted, the doctrine of life after death is not found there, and those Jews who do wish to believe in an afterlife - and there are many such Jews - are obliged to find another justification for their beliefs. According to this source

The most important of the three were the Pharisees because they are the spiritual fathers of modern Judaism. Their main distinguishing characteristic was a belief in an Oral Law that God gave to Moses at Sinai along with the Torah ... The Pharisees also maintained that an after-life existed and that God punished the wicked and rewarded the righteous in the world to come. They also believed in a messiah who would herald an era of world peace ...

The Sadducees rejected the idea of the Oral Law and insisted on a literal interpretation of the Written Law; consequently, they did not believe in an after life, since it is not mentioned in the Torah. The main focus of Sadducee life was rituals associated with the Temple.

According to Judaism, what happens in the next world? ... In heaven, one story teaches, Moses sits and teaches Torah all day long. For the righteous people (the tzaddikim), this is heaven; for the evil people, it is hell....

Very droll.

....Because Judaism believes that God is good, it believes that God rewards good people; it does not believe that Adolf Hitler and his victims share the same fate. ...

Jews and other people who reject an afterlife do not believe that either Hitler or his victims have any posthumous "fate". People who believe that God is good may well not believe that God inflicts eternal torment after death.

 

[dejudge]

That "might" is ridiculous. The Torah is silent on the topic because belief in an afterlife was not a feature of ancient Israelite religion.

Thank you for the passage you cite, which is further evidence on the content of the Torah. As noted, the doctrine of life after death is not found there, and those Jews who do wish to believe in an afterlife - and there are many such Jews - are obliged to find another justification for their beliefs. According to this source Very droll. Jews and other people who reject an afterlife do not believe that either Hitler or his victims have any posthumous "fate". People who believe that God is good may well not believe that God inflicts eternal torment after death.

Again, your claim is still fallacious.

1. There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence that Jews believed in the AFTER LIFE.

2. The Torah does NOT deny the belief in the After Life.

 

[I Am The Scum]

1. There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence that Jews believed in the AFTER LIFE.

Nothing you cited from the Old Testament indicates that heaven or hell is a place where someone goes after they die.

 

[Craig B]

Again, your claim is still fallacious.

1. There is an ABUNDANCE of evidence that Jews believed in the AFTER LIFE.

Some did and do. Some didn't and don't.

2. The Torah does NOT deny the belief in the After Life.

What is being said is that it doesn't contain or promote the doctrine of a future life, and in consequence of that, Jews who depended entirely in the Torah for their religious beliefs didn't accept the principle.

Proof of that has repeatedly been given in this thread.

 

[Leumas]

Some did and do. Some didn't and don't. What is being said is that it doesn't contain or promote the doctrine of a future life, and in consequence of that, Jews who depended entirely in the Torah for their religious beliefs didn't accept the principle.

Proof of that has repeatedly been given in this thread.

But the Talmud is the oral Torah given at the same time as the written Torah... no?

Read this article.

 

[Craig B]

But the Talmud is the oral Torah given at the same time as the written Torah... no?

Read this article.

No. You think God gave the Talmud orally to Moses? This is later elaboration - millennia later! - to give authority to the Talmud.

So the Angel Gabriel gave the Quran to Muhammad in a cave? The Book of Mormon was inscribed on golden plates carted about by an angel?

 

[dejudge]

Some did and do. Some didn't and don't. What is being said is that it doesn't contain or promote the doctrine of a future life, and in consequence of that, Jews who depended entirely in the Torah for their religious beliefs didn't accept the principle.

Your argument is changing like a chameleon to match its surroundings.

When rakovsky stated "The Hindus, Zoroastrians, Egyptians, and Sumerians all believed in the afterlife. It's only natural that the Hebrews who came from the Arameans thought this way too....."

You responded with convenient imaginative fiction and fallacy "Nonetheless the evidence is not there, and counter evidence abounds"..

Now you admit there were Jews who did believe in the after life.

There is NO evidence that the Torah DENIES belief in the After Life.

The evidence ABOUNDS that Jews believed in the AFTER LIFE.

The Pharisees and Essenes not only believed in the AFTER LIFE but also that bad people would be punished AFTER DEATH.

In addition, you write even more fiction and fallacies when you claim Jews who used ONLY the Torah did not believe in the after life.

You cannot and is incapable of identifying a Jew who used ONLY the Torah to argue that there was no AFTER Life.

 

[Leumas]

...
When rakovsky stated "The Hindus, Zoroastrians, Egyptians, and Sumerians all believed in the afterlife. It's only natural that the Hebrews who came from the Arameans thought this way too....."

...

There is NO evidence that the Torah DENIES belief in the After Life.

The evidence ABOUNDS that Jews believed in the AFTER LIFE.

The Pharisees and Essenes not only believed in the AFTER LIFE but also that bad people would be punished AFTER DEATH.

...

You are right!

Besides what is the point of believing in a god who leaves the righteous to rot while the wicked die luxuriating in their beds after a long life of rapine and debaucheries at the expense of their victims and both have no punishment or reward or any afterlife consequences.

Such a god would be no better than a devil or nonexistent.

I doubt any person would see any value in such a god.

And the fact that all religions from which Judaism evolved had the afterlife concept makes it extremely unlikely that the normal Jew did not.

Maybe the writers of the Torah —unlike those of the rest of Tanakh which has numerous afterlife beliefs — were atheists who betrayed their real beliefs by forgetting to mention the afterlife in the Torah.

Perhaps the Torah writers knew that one day Muslims would come along and promise things that are better than they could promise and thus being the wily foxes they were knew that keeping it a mystery would appeal more to the Jewish mind than any concrete details…. and also to keep the Rabbis busy speculating and writing stuff in the Talmud.

....
....If one believes in a God who is all-powerful and all-just, one cannot believe that this world, in which evil far too often triumphs, is the only arena in which human life exists.

For if this existence is the final word, and God permits evil to win, then it cannot be that God is good.

Thus, when someone says he or she believes in God but not in afterlife, it would seem that either they have not thought the issue through, or they don't believe in God, or the divine being in whom they believe is amoral or immoral.
...

 

[Craig B]

Your argument is changing like a chameleon to match its surroundings.

My argument matches the surrounding facts. Your arguments are conjured up from the phantasms of your imagination.

In addition, you write even more fiction and fallacies when you claim Jews who used ONLY the Torah did not believe in the after life.

You cannot and is incapable of identifying a Jew who used ONLY the Torah to argue that there was no AFTER Life.

I don't need to identify such a Jew, as these Jews were identified long, long ago.

According to Josephus, the Sadducees believed that:

There is no fate
God does not commit evil
Man has free will; “man has the free choice of good or evil”
The soul is not immortal; there is no afterlife, and
There are no rewards or penalties after death
The Sadducees rejected the belief in resurrection of the dead, which was a central tenet believed by Early Christians ...

... The Sadducees rejected the Pharisaic use of the Oral Law to enforce their claims to power, citing the Written Torah as the sole manifestation of divinity.

See: Josephus Jewish War 2.8.14; cf. Antiquities 18.1.4.

 

[ryu238]

The idea of an afterlife for the Jews was very different from what Christianity had: http://www.debunkingskeptics.com/DebunkingChristians/Page28.htm