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Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

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Jango said:
The only city/place I've been at in Texas is Houston's international airport and it was a lousy hour layover. The humidity there was like a sledgehammer waiting to smack the bejesus out of me.



Military Tactics.

The slow moving unprotected (no roof or bulletproof glass) vehicle was a turkey shoot. LHO in the BD and another shooter at the Knoll improves the chances of operational success because of the crossfire it created.
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I'm still waiting for a documented example of more than one precision shooter firing on a single living target.

If it is a common tactic, evidence should be easy to produce.
 
RoboTimbo said:
Are you saying that the grassy knoll is an effective location for another shooter to create crossfire? From a "military tactics" perspective?
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It might be in the Dick Armey, but I've never run across it wrt precision shooting.

Maybe somebody confused interlocking fields of fire in the defense using crew served weapons with some guy's fantasy version of "sniping".
 
Belz... said:
Not only are you assuming your conclusion (it was a conspiracy) but the evidence does not support the presence of a second shooter.
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He is also deciding that the criteria of "operational success" for this conspiracy is simply killing JFK. Ignoring, completely, that a fairly large part of the measure of success would have to be "getting away without being caught and ensuring Oswald takes the fall and not leaving any evidence of a second shooter".
 
RoboTimbo said:
Are you saying that the grassy knoll is an effective location for another shooter to create crossfire? From a "military tactics" perspective?
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As Jay noted, this theory is a joke that could be easily cured by a $99 flight on Southwest, an $18 cab ride and a five minute walk around the site.
 
I've moved a number of posts off to AAH which were not in compliance with the Membership Agreement, in particular, Rule 12 & Rule 0. Please do not continue posting in this manner. Any further breaches will be met with further actions, up to and including infractions, suspensions and banishment.
Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: kmortis
 
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Jango said:
1. Government documents -- particularly from J. Edgar Hoover.

2. I don't believe the U.S. Government was operationally involved.

3. Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, I do not know for sure one way or another.

4. LHO was not a patsy.

5. Not getting the job done and President Kennedy making it out of there alive.

6. I am and have been aware of the seating arrangements that even the Warren Commission got wrong, which created the magic bullet theory. So thank the government for creating that aspect of the conspiracy theory.

7. Lol. Have you seen or personally shot someone in the head before? From my experiences, a frontal shot on President Kennedy is evidenced by his bodily movements, not to mention the ejecta from the back of his head. BTW -- you're the first to question me about "really being in the Marines." Do you prefer trophies or ribbons?
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Why are you avoiding the eyeball evidence I've provided of the reaction of a body to the impact of a projectile?

Tet 68' graphic violence warning:



Testing body armor:



I don't know where or how you acquired your experience, but my experience is that when a living target is hit with a projectile that impacts the brain and/or spinal cord that target immediately collapses according to body attitude at the moment of impact, and as an aside even a .50 BMG or 12.7 combloc round doesn't knock a living target down at impact.

If you want to assert that the motion of JFK's head is evidence of a shot from the front you should be able to describe why you believe so.
 
BStrong said:
Funny thing, never heard it called "Mozambique" outside of IPSC, because in Mil/LE circles we call it and teach it as the Failure Drill.

Second bolded: that's why LHO fired three rounds.
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And stopped when he saw JFK's head explode from the shot to the back of the head. Really no point in continuing after that, was there?

Hank
 
Regnad Kcin said:
When first viewing it in person, Dealey Plaza was so unlike the mental picture I had it was startling.
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I know what you mean. Standing in Dealey Plaza in 1992 at the spot where JFK was struck in the head, I had the feeling I could pick up a rock, throw it, and hit the sniper's nest window - it appears that close. And that was the farthest shot.

Hank
 
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HSienzant said:
And stopped when he saw JFK's head explode from the shot to the back of the head. Really no point in continuing after that, was there?

Hank
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Maybe I'm giving LHO too much credit here, but if he was working according to his training he would have his eye on the front sight blade or the scope reticle, and in firing w/ a good cheek weld he would lose his sight picture in recoil and have to reacquire his sight picture after bringing the rifle out of recoil - it's entirely possible that he didn't see the actual impact but could observe JFK/Jackie and assumed he had scored a good hit.
 
Pope130 said:
While walking the ground I noted another problem with the grassy knoll fence location. Had the turn-out been somewhat larger a shooter's line of fire would have been completely blocked by members of the crowd. As it was, a shooter at the fence line location was intermittently blocked by spectators as the limousine passed in front of him. Since the notional conspirators could not have known beforehand the size of the crowd, the choice of a shooting location that could well be blocked seems foolish.
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I have unfortunately never been there what is the 'escape' route from there like? Is it covered or concealed?
 
Hans said:
I have unfortunately never been there what is the 'escape' route from there like? Is it covered or concealed?
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In view of about a dozen men on the overpass (south of the knoll), another man working in the Railroad switching station behind the Grass Knoll fence (west of the knoll), and some janitors who were to the north of the knoll. East of the knoll was of course, Elm Street with all the spectators. An assassin stationed there literally had nowhere to go, which is why some conspiracy theorists suggest he climbed into the trunk of his own car and hid there!

Lee Bowers worked in the switching station behind the knoll and had an excellent overview of the entire area: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/bowers.htm

== quote ==
Mr. BALL - Did you see anyone standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - On the triple underpass, there were two policemen. One facing each direction, both east and west. There was one railroad employee, a signal man there with the Union Terminal Co., and two welders that worked for the Fort Worth Welding firm, and there was also a laborer's assistant furnished by the railroad to these welders.
Mr. BALL - You saw those before the President came by, you saw those people?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; they were there before and after.
Mr. BALL - And were they standing on the triple underpass?
Mr. BOWERS - Yes; they were standing on top of it facing towards Houston Street, all except, of course, the one policeman on the west side.
Mr. BALL - Did you see any other people up on this high ground?
Mr. BOWERS - There were one or two people in the area. Not in this same vicinity. One of them was a parking lot attendant that operates a parking lot there. One or two. Each had uniforms similar to those custodians at the courthouse. But they were some distance back, just a slight distance back.
== unquote ==

Interestingly, in the movie JFK by Oliver Stone, Stone only quotes the highlighted portion of Bowers testimony, then cuts to a staged scene showing policemen in uniform - because by then the colorized Moorman photo had become popular, and it supposedly showed a policeman (called "Badgeman") firing a rifle at the motorcade.

Buddy Walthers was familiar with the area and ran to the knoll area after the shooting (he was around the corner on Main at the time of the assassination, and most likely ran to the knoll because everyone else was).

Here's his testimony: http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/walthers.htm

== quote ==
Mr. LIEBELER. Also, actually, if you were standing down here in front of this building on Main Street at the time the shots were fired, I suppose you could have seen down there to this railroad track trestle that goes over the underpass did you have occasion to look down there at any time?
Mr. WALTHERS. No; it never even entered my mind, and knowing how this thing is arranged and I have chased a couple of escapees across the thing before, and knowing what was over there, the thought that anyone was shooting from back in here I've heard some people say he was behind the fence, and I'm telling you, it just can't be, because it's a wide open river bottom area as far as you can go.
Mr. LIEBELER. It's a river bottom?
Mr. WALTHERS. Yes; and the thought that anyone would be shooting off of there would almost be an impossible thing--- there's no place for him to go---there's nothing.
== unquote ==

Hank
 
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Pope130 said:
Since the notional conspirators could not have known beforehand the size of the crowd, the choice of a shooting location that could well be blocked seems foolish.
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Come to think of it, why didn't the Conspiracy just shoot Kennedy from the same place they intended to claim Oswald shot him?

It just seems really goofy and foolish to shoot a guy from the front and then pretend he was shot from behind and above.
 
John Nowak said:
Come to think of it, why didn't the Conspiracy just shoot Kennedy from the same place they intended to claim Oswald shot him?

It just seems really goofy and foolish to shoot a guy from the front and then pretend he was shot from behind and above.
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Yes, that's one of the biggest flaws in the entire plot scenario that conspiracy theorists hint at. They don't really get too detailed with their scenario, because it sounds downright idiotic when you actually try to think it through.

Shoot the President from three or more locations and then try to frame a patsy shooting only from behind?

Alter the President's body to conceal the evidence of the other shooters?

Alter the films of the assassination to conceal the evidence of the other shooters?

Alter the autopsy x-rays and autopsy photos?

Kill witnesses who saw too much?

Alter the testimony of a lot of other witnesses?

Intimidate other witnesses?

Arrange for the patsy to be killed before he went to trial?

Plant or forge or swap evidence to establish the patsy did it? (which includes, but is not limited to, one rifle, three shells, one nearly whole bullet, a paper sack, two bullet fragments found in the limo, fingerprints on the trigger guard of the rifle, a palmprint under the stock of the rifle, an order form for the rifle, a money order for the rifle, backyard photos showing the patsy holding the rifle, a jacket that couldn't be traced to the patsy along the route the shooter of Officer Tippit took, four shells at the scene of that crime, somehow arrange for the patsy to assault a police officer in the theatre at the time of his arrest, somehow arrange for the patsy to pull a revolver on the arresting officer in the theatre, somehow arrange for the patsy to resist arrest... I'm sure I'm leaving a lot out).

Like you said, it's certainly a lot easier to just shoot the President from behind using the patsy's gun. And if you can convince the patsy to do the shooting, you're home free.

Or maybe the patsy just decided to do it without anyone convincing him to do it.

Nyahh. That can't be right. It's too simple.

Hank
 
Matthew Ellard said:
Don't US Army snipers work in solo, two man teams, to avoid detection?
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JayUtah said:
Are you talking about the sniper-spotter doctrine?
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Yes. I thought ( but do not know) that most sniper teams worked on their own and that finding two locations for two teams would increase inherent detection risks and take time to establish and co ordinate. However the discussion has moved on so I am backing away. It was a tiny insignificant point.
 
HSienzant said:
Yes, that's one of the biggest flaws in the entire plot scenario that conspiracy theorists hint at. They don't really get too detailed with their scenario, because it sounds downright idiotic when you actually try to think it through.
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One of the classic flaws with a certain type of conspiracy theory is that they only give the appearance of making sense when told backwards. 9/11 controlled demolition is the classic example, but just about all of the Kennedy theories have the same quality; when re-cast as a narrative starting from the planning stage, they're such obvious nonsense that they simply can't be taken seriously. One of the main aims of their proponents, therefore, has to be to raise the level of antagonism and insult in the discussion to the point where nobody's calm enough to take that step back, think the story through from beginning to end, and burst out laughing. Jango, with his self-professed inability to remain calm in a discussion, is quite well-equipped for that form of deception, as we've seen; when he steps away for a day or two, the massive plot holes get much clearer.

Dave
 
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