Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[Jango]

You seem awfully sure of what the conspirators had in mind. How do you know this? And is it your belief that the conspirators went with the "KISS" rule after the fact, but it never occurred to them to "keep the narrative simple" when originally devising their plot?
As Jay indicated, it sounds like you're just reverse-engineering a scenario that explains (to your satisfaction, at least) what the conspirators planned to do based on what actually ended up happening. If the second (and third? and fourth?) assassin(s) had been captured along with Oswald, would they too have been silenced by some other Jack Ruby-type before they went to trial? Wouldn't it have been simpler to have one patsy and let the chips fall where they may? What was the bigger risk to the conspirators in your view; that Oswald might've missed, or the risk that the type of absurdly complicated scheme that HSienzant alluded to would surely have increased the risk of the true conspirators being discovered?

All the stuff about the "magic bullet", grassy knoll assassins, "back and to the left", etc. have been embraced by people who who were ignorant of the unusual seating layout of the limo and the counterintuitive effects of bullets striking a living person. Surely if you really were "trained in the Corps", you must know that when it comes to firearms, real life isn't like a Hollywood movie?



One would hope.

1. Government documents -- particularly from J. Edgar Hoover.

2. I don't believe the U.S. Government was operationally involved.

3. Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, I do not know for sure one way or another.

4. LHO was not a patsy.

5. Not getting the job done and President Kennedy making it out of there alive.

6. I am and have been aware of the seating arrangements that even the Warren Commission got wrong, which created the magic bullet theory. So thank the government for creating that aspect of the conspiracy theory.

7. Lol. Have you seen or personally shot someone in the head before? From my experiences, a frontal shot on President Kennedy is evidenced by his bodily movements, not to mention the ejecta from the back of his head. BTW -- you're the first to question me about "really being in the Marines." Do you prefer trophies or ribbons?

 

[Jango]

Yes it does and in all that digital ink and 50 years no one has found a single thing to support the idea of conspiracy.

That should make a deeper thinker think - but will it?

Lie.

 

[JohnG]

1. Government documents -- particularly from J. Edgar Hoover.

Could you be more specific?

2. I don't believe the U.S. Government was operationally involved.

I don't believe I said anything about the "U.S. Government", so I'm not sure how that answers my question.

3. Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, I do not know for sure one way or another.

Fair enough.

4. LHO was not a patsy.

What was he?

5. Not getting the job done and President Kennedy making it out of there alive.

Why? Why was it so important to kill JFK that day and in front of all those witnesses, even if it meant that a slip-up could result in them being uncovered as the masterminds of the plot? If they needed to get rid of JFK so urgently, why not something more subtle involving his already poor health? Or why not blackmail him over his affairs?

6. I am and have been aware of the seating arrangements that even the Warren Commission got wrong, which created the magic bullet theory. So thank the government for creating that aspect of the conspiracy theory.

An aspect that some conspiracists still hold onto like grim death. Does it inspire any epiphanies in you when you consider that the original "JFK Conspiracy Theory" is built on such shaky ground?

7. Lol. Have you seen or personally shot someone in the head before?

I'm delighted to say "no". I've never flown a plane before, either, but I believe there are people who have and I'm fine with deferring to their expertise...unless they start telling me they've flown from New York to LA in an X-Wing.

From my experiences, a frontal shot on President Kennedy is evidenced by his bodily movements, not to mention the ejecta from the back of his head.

BTW -- you're the first to question me about "really being in the Marines." Do you prefer trophies or ribbons?

I never wrote "really being in the Marines.", so I'm not sure why you have it wrapped in quotes. In any case, this site has seen a few CTists (and at least one "debunker") who've misrepresented themselves to a shameful degree. If you say you were in the Marines, I'm prepared to provisionally take you at your word. The trouble is that there are others here, also with military experience, who think the "ejecta from the back of his head" thing is a load of hooey, so where does that leave the conversation?

I myself have decades of experience in several fields, but that doesn't make me all-knowing or immune from error when discussing said fields.

 

[abaddon]

1. Government documents -- particularly from J. Edgar Hoover.

Present them.

2. I don't believe the U.S. Government was operationally involved.

Then who?

3. Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, I do not know for sure one way or another.

Then why are you pretending to certainty?

4. LHO was not a patsy.

Then you agree LHO dunnit.

5. Not getting the job done and President Kennedy making it out of there alive.

Are you actually claiming it is impossible to kill without the assistance of others?

6. I am and have been aware of the seating arrangements that even the Warren Commission got wrong, which created the magic bullet theory. So thank the government for creating that aspect of the conspiracy theory.

Yet in #2 above you claimed the ebil gubbmint was not involved. Which is it?

7. Lol. Have you seen or personally shot someone in the head before? From my experiences, a frontal shot on President Kennedy is evidenced by his bodily movements, not to mention the ejecta from the back of his head. BTW -- you're the first to question me about "really being in the Marines." Do you prefer trophies or ribbons?

I can only speak for myself, but your posts strongly indicate to me that your were not.

 

[HSienzant]

Thanks. I do recommend that Jango visit Dallas and Dealey Plaza if he can. As has been said many times in the thread, it seems that many of the conspiracy books, web sites, and general word-of-mouth claims are aimed at people who have never been there and thus rely on the author or raconteur to set the scene and interpret subjective propositions of feasibility.

I've stood where Abraham Zapruder stood. I've driven the motorcade route myself. I've stood at many places on the grassy knoll and the overpass. I've sighted from the TSBD. My evaluation of the conspiracy theories is based in no small part on that.

Ditto. Last time I was there was the 50th anniversary of the assassination.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

It's over 1,300 posts deep now...

I'm guessing you won't be reading any of the predecessor threads this one was spun off from, either.

A shame. It would save you a lot of needless embarrassment as you cover the same ground many of us here have gone over previously. It's not like all these arguments are new to us.

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

1. Government documents -- particularly from J. Edgar Hoover.

2. I don't believe the U.S. Government was operationally involved.

3. Maybe, maybe not. Obviously, I do not know for sure one way or another.

4. LHO was not a patsy.

5. Not getting the job done and President Kennedy making it out of there alive.
6. I am and have been aware of the seating arrangements that even the Warren Commission got wrong, which created the magic bullet theory. So thank the government for creating that aspect of the conspiracy theory.

7. Lol. Have you seen or personally shot someone in the head before? From my experiences, a frontal shot on President Kennedy is evidenced by his bodily movements, not to mention the ejecta from the back of his head. BTW -- you're the first to question me about "really being in the Marines." Do you prefer trophies or ribbons?

Allow me to add my points:
5. Some other conspiracists allege there was an earlier plot that was supposed to kill JFK in Chicago, but it got cancelled at the last minute due to operational difficulties. They even allege there was a different patsy set up to take the fall ("Thomas Arthur Vallee"). If that was true, why couldn't they just do it again a month later somewhere if the Dallas plot failed to come to fruition?

6. Please provide the evidence the Warren Commission got the seating arrangements wrong in any fashion. I think you're assuming the drawing of the seating arrangements with the Governor seated directly in front of the President (instead of six inches to the left); at the same level as the President (instead of lower); and facing directly forward (instead of turned to the right) is a Warren Commission artifact. It's not. It's a conspiracy author's misrepresentation. Is this going to be another steeplechase with you pretending you already cited the evidence (like you've done with the ejecta)?

7. You have yet to show any evidence of ejecta out the back of the head or onto the trunk. You have yet to eliminate the other possible causes of a head movement backward:
1. Neuromuscular reaction
2. Back Brace
3. Jet Effect
4. The head rotates forward until the chin is depressed against the chest, and the head then rebounds back.

Also, are you aware that the President's head moves FORWARD two inches at the time of the head shot? It only starts moving backward after the bullet has left the head. Physics imparts momentum at the time of impact. Not later. So unless you're conjecturing two shots to the head, and a government coverup starting witht the autopsy report, you've got it wrong about the President's body movements having any bearing on the source of the shot.

Also, are you aware the autopsy says there was only one shot to the head, and it came from above and behind the level of the deceased? Was that a lie by the government?

Hank

 

[HSienzant]

Lie.

Can you be more specific and cite the evidence for a single thing that supports the idea of a conspiracy?

If you say the "ejecta" and "Jackie climbing onto the trunk to retrieve some "ejecta" I'm going to have to laugh. You've shown no evidence of that.

 

[Dave Rogers]

You'd never hear from me again if that's your criteria for "debate."

I wanted to highlight this because it's a classic example of bizarro world thinking. Jango seems to think that an inability to debate calmly is somehow normal and praiseworthy, rather than an obvious negative attribute. Where do people get such skewed world views from?

Dave

 

[Belz...]

What is your evidence for what "the job likely called for?"

Gut feeling > evidence.

Why couldn't the second shooter, in presumably a better place, simply have done the job himself?

And there's one of the many fatal flaws in pretty much all conspiracy theories: they are all totally unnecessary.

 

[Belz...]

The slow moving unprotected (no roof or bulletproof glass) vehicle was a turkey shoot. LHO in the BD and another shooter at the Knoll improves the chances of operational success because of the crossfire it created.

Not only are you assuming your conclusion (it was a conspiracy) but the evidence does not support the presence of a second shooter.

 

[Belz...]

Yes, and when I got to Dealey Plaza I was quite surprised at how inaccurately those photographs and diagrams failed to capture the layout and scale. That's why the question, "Have you been to Dealey Plaza?" is so acute. You really don't get a proper understanding of it from photos and diagrams.

And that's usually true. Schematics give you the measurements, but with pictures it's often misleading. For example, Tokyo Tower doesn't look that big on the pictures I took from right next to it, but when I was there it was positively huge.

 

[Belz...]

Unlimited budget... and they had to spend it all, as otherwise it would be cut in half the next year.

So they did it the hard way, leaving a Mauser in the Depository, then switching it for the Mannlicher-Carcano; altered the Zapruder film; killed a multitude of witnesses; planting Oswald's palmprint on the rifle; planted a paper bag; faked photos of Oswald holding the rifle; altered the Altgens photo, which showed Oswald in the doorway, and substituted for Oswald someone who looked almost exactly like him from a distance; faked his handwriting on the order form for the rifle; faked his handwriting on the Money Order paying for the rifle; faked that it was shipped to his PO Box; killed a policeman to make him appear guilty; dropped a jacket nearby that couldn't be traced to Oswald to frame him for the policeman's murder; altered the President's body, planted a bullet in Parkland Hospital; planted three shells at the sniper's nest window; had Oswald doubles roaming around all over (everywhere but Las Vegas, apparently) doing totally innocuous things like cashing a check or getting a haircut to frame him for the President's assassination... I'm sure I'm leaving a great deal out.

Can you imagine how clean this operation could have been if they just framed Oswald for owning a good weapon and shot the President with that good weapon from behind?

But with an unlimited budget, why not do it the hard way?

Hank

That's what happens when you plan your conspiracies by committee.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Somewhere from a rightward angle, so that'd be the Knoll, right?

It's your fantasy. Was there a shooter on the grassy knoll?

 

[JayUtah]

...I'd prefer 'along my line of sight'.

Then the Grassy Knoll shooter is out. Since you've never been there, you wouldn't know that your alleged shooter would be shooting at a head-sized target accelerating across his line of fire, and that between the signage, the terrain, and the foliage he'd have only a little less than a second to acquire, sight, and fire. He'd also be so close to the spectators on the Grassy Knoll that he could have had a conversation with them -- yes, even from behind the fence.

Every single notion I had regarding a Grassy Knoll shooter was dispelled by a five-minute walk around the site. It is really quite absurd.

 

[RoboTimbo]

Yes, that is the technical definition. Two to the chest and one to the head (Mozambique Drill) is how I was trained in the Corps. Snipers are taught one shot, one kill. When going after a high value target, a recent example being OBL, the SEALS double-tapped the hell out of OBL. Understand that when I use that term, I'm saying: they put enough rounds in him to absolutely be sure that he was as dead as possible. The pop culture reference is Zombieland rule #2, which is, in essence, make sure the ********** is dead.

The SEAL team didn't snipe OBL. Oswald did snipe JFK. Do you see the difference?

 

[RoboTimbo]

I understand (WTC memorial in person encapsulates the enormity far better than a picture/diagram), however, are you saying someone at a frontal rightward angle from President Kennedy and LHO in the TSBD does not create a crossfire?

Are you saying that the grassy knoll is an effective location for another shooter to create crossfire? From a "military tactics" perspective?

 

[JayUtah]

Makes it even worse.

Not for us. You whine about boxes of secret materials and shame people for believing the conventional narrative without knowing what those boxes contain. How do you expect to get any traction for that straw man when you won't even read the discussion about what we do know? The "back and to the left" discussion appears ad nauseam. The latest resurrection of the "smell of gunpowder" claim was as few as five pages prior to your entrance.

Conversely, how do you think you come across when you repeat arguments that people who read the thread can see have already been thoroughly discussed? Do you think you come across as knowledgeable and thoughtful, or do you come across as someone simply repeating what he's heard?

 

[Pope130]

While walking the ground I noted another problem with the grassy knoll fence location. Had the turn-out been somewhat larger a shooter's line of fire would have been completely blocked by members of the crowd. As it was, a shooter at the fence line location was intermittently blocked by spectators as the limousine passed in front of him. Since the notional conspirators could not have known beforehand the size of the crowd, the choice of a shooting location that could well be blocked seems foolish.

 

[BStrong]

Yes, that is the technical definition. Two to the chest and one to the head (Mozambique Drill) is how I was trained in the Corps. Snipers are taught one shot, one kill. When going after a high value target, a recent example being OBL, the SEALS double-tapped the hell out of OBL. Understand that when I use that term, I'm saying: they put enough rounds in him to absolutely be sure that he was as dead as possible. The pop culture reference is Zombieland rule #2, which is, in essence, make sure the ********** is dead.

Funny thing, never heard it called "Mozambique" outside of IPSC, because in Mil/LE circles we call it and teach it as the Failure Drill.

Second bolded: that's why LHO fired three rounds.