Moderated JFK conspiracy theories: it never ends III

[HSienzant]

...
As to the question you've hounded me about: no, I have not had the pleasure of visiting Dallas, Texas yet.

His answer above.

 

[JayUtah]

His answer above.

Thanks. I do recommend that Jango visit Dallas and Dealey Plaza if he can. As has been said many times in the thread, it seems that many of the conspiracy books, web sites, and general word-of-mouth claims are aimed at people who have never been there and thus rely on the author or raconteur to set the scene and interpret subjective propositions of feasibility.

I've stood where Abraham Zapruder stood. I've driven the motorcade route myself. I've stood at many places on the grassy knoll and the overpass. I've sighted from the TSBD. My evaluation of the conspiracy theories is based in no small part on that.

 

[Jango]

I'll assume you haven't been there.

The only city/place I've been at in Texas is Houston's international airport and it was a lousy hour layover. The humidity there was like a sledgehammer waiting to smack the bejesus out of me.

Upon what basis are you positioning your hypothetical second shooter?

Military Tactics.

The slow moving unprotected (no roof or bulletproof glass) vehicle was a turkey shoot. LHO in the BD and another shooter at the Knoll improves the chances of operational success because of the crossfire it created.

 

[Jango]

A real man apologizes for his errors. You know, you could simply have repeated your single-word answer rather than make a personal attack that required more virtual ink. Upon what basis are you positioning your hypothetical second shooter?

I repeated what you had said of me earlier.

 

[JayUtah]

Military Tactics.

Too vague.

The slow moving unprotected (no roof or bulletproof glass) vehicle was a turkey shoot.

From what angle?

LHO in the BD and another shooter at the Knoll improves the chances of operational success because of the crossfire it created.

Cute that you think it was crossfire. Having never seen cars pass by you from the point of view of the grassy knoll, how on Earth do you propose to have any real knowledge how hard or easy a shot it was?

 

[JayUtah]

I repeated what you had said of me earlier.

And I stand by my criticism. You asked a question that had a lengthy answer -- covered not too long ago in the thread you refuse to read. I asked a simple yes-no question whose answer you could have repeated far easier than making a personal attack. The fact that you chose to make a personal attack rather than answer the simple question again says volumes about what you likely hope to accomplish by your tenure at ISF. The principal difference is that I indeed took the time to reread the thread. You won't even read it once.

 

[Jango]

Too vague.

For the uninitiated, perhaps.

From what angle?

Any angle really. President Kennedy was a sitting duck, his head/neck/upper torso was wide-open for exploitation.

Cute that you think it was crossfire. Having never seen cars pass by you from the point of view of the grassy knoll, how on Earth do you propose to have any real knowledge how hard or easy a shot it was?

It is 2015 you know, there are photographs and diagrams of Dealey Plaza on the Internet: http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/plazao.jpg

 

[Jango]

And I stand by my criticism. You asked a question that had a lengthy answer -- covered not too long ago in the thread you refuse to read. I asked a simple yes-no question whose answer you could have repeated far easier than making a personal attack. The fact that you chose to make a personal attack rather than answer the simple question again says volumes about what you likely hope to accomplish by your tenure at ISF. The principal difference is that I indeed took the time to reread the thread. You won't even read it once.

It's over 1,300 posts deep now. I extended to you the same courtesy you showed me. Your choice to rationalize your actions that you're now complaining about because I did the same thing is both ironic and hypocritical -- you can't have it both ways, man.

 

[JayUtah]

For the uninitiated, perhaps.

No. Handwaving and repeatedly calling your critics ignorant is not an argument.

Any angle really.

No. If you had a choice between a target moving along your line of sight or across your line of sight, which would an experienced rifleman choose?

It is 2015 you know, there are photographs and diagrams of Dealey Plaza on the Internet.

Yes, and when I got to Dealey Plaza I was quite surprised at how inaccurately those photographs and diagrams failed to capture the layout and scale. That's why the question, "Have you been to Dealey Plaza?" is so acute. You really don't get a proper understanding of it from photos and diagrams.

 

[JayUtah]

you can't have it both ways, man.

It's not both ways.

You said you answered the question, so I went back to the thread and read ten pages of it to see if I could find your answer. I could not, but HSeizant had better luck. He posted the link, and I apologized and incorporated your answer into my line of questioning. I can truthfully say that I'm reasonably (but obviously not completely) familiar with your entire contribution to this thread. You could have simply re-answered my question, but you insist on making it a big deal.

In the larger sense this is a thread that many of us have participated in literally for years. It's a thorough examination of the JFK conspiracy theory, incorporating the claims of several conspiracy proponents. We skeptic participants have taken the pains to reasonably survey all the claims of the conspiracy theorists who have posted. So no, you don't get to be a Johnny-Come-Lately and thumb your nose at the preceding discussion. Sorry but neither the world nor the forum revolves around you.

 

[Matthew Ellard]

LHO in the BD and another shooter at the Knoll improves the chances of operational success because of the crossfire it created.

Don't US Army snipers work in solo, two man teams, to avoid detection?

 

[JayUtah]

Don't US Army snipers work in solo, two man teams, to avoid detection?

Are you talking about the sniper-spotter doctrine?

 

[JohnG]

Hiring more than one shooter is not controversial. LHO is credited with three shots, one of them being a miss. The job likely called for a double-tap. After missing and not scoring a headshot, the second shooter would step up and finish the job.

In the aftermath, it was internally decided to keep the narrative simple: LHO did it and did it alone. That was the conclusion of the Warren Commission and the MSM reported what the commission/government said.

You seem awfully sure of what the conspirators had in mind. How do you know this? And is it your belief that the conspirators went with the "KISS" rule after the fact, but it never occurred to them to "keep the narrative simple" when originally devising their plot?

As Jay indicated, it sounds like you're just reverse-engineering a scenario that explains (to your satisfaction, at least) what the conspirators planned to do based on what actually ended up happening. If the second (and third? and fourth?) assassin(s) had been captured along with Oswald, would they too have been silenced by some other Jack Ruby-type before they went to trial? Wouldn't it have been simpler to have one patsy and let the chips fall where they may? What was the bigger risk to the conspirators in your view; that Oswald might've missed, or the risk that the type of absurdly complicated scheme that HSienzant alluded to would surely have increased the risk of the true conspirators being discovered?

All the stuff about the "magic bullet", grassy knoll assassins, "back and to the left", etc. have been embraced by people who who were ignorant of the unusual seating layout of the limo and the counterintuitive effects of bullets striking a living person. Surely if you really were "trained in the Corps", you must know that when it comes to firearms, real life isn't like a Hollywood movie?

End of story.

One would hope.

 

[Jango]

It's not both ways.

You said you answered the question, so I went back to the thread and read ten pages of it to see if I could find your answer. I could not, but HSeizant had better luck. He posted the link, and I apologized and incorporated your answer into my line of questioning. I can truthfully say that I'm reasonably (but obviously not completely) familiar with your entire contribution to this thread. You could have simply re-answered my question, but you insist on making it a big deal.

In the larger sense this is a thread that many of us have participated in literally for years. It's a thorough examination of the JFK conspiracy theory, incorporating the claims of several conspiracy proponents. We skeptic participants have taken the pains to reasonably survey all the claims of the conspiracy theorists who have posted. So no, you don't get to be a Johnny-Come-Lately and thumb your nose at the preceding discussion. Sorry but neither the world nor the forum revolves around you.

Likewise

 

[abaddon]

It's over 1,300 posts deep now. I extended to you the same courtesy you showed me. Your choice to rationalize your actions that you're now complaining about because I did the same thing is both ironic and hypocritical -- you can't have it both ways, man.

Um, this is part three. there are 10,000+ posts each in part I and II.

 

[Hans]

Um, this is part three. there are 10,000+ posts each in part I and II.

...and in all that not one crumb of proof of a conspiracy but I'm sure a gallant deep thinker who has discarded the pesky concept of evidence will find the long hidden smoking gun and prove the conspiracy - by using all the old failed conspiracy ideas once again!!!

 

[Jango]

No. Handwaving and repeatedly calling your critics ignorant is not an argument.

Neither is calling people stupid truthers or insane. I don't see you correcting beachnut or any other teammates of yours that do what you just described. If you're so concerned about it, don't forget to clean up your own house.

No. If you had a choice between a target moving along your line of sight or across your line of sight, which would an experienced rifleman choose?

Are you asking from my POV or from what I think other experienced riflemen would choose? Personally, I was trained to react to either, but as far as my own preference goes, if I am reading your question as intended, I'd prefer 'along my line of sight'.

Yes, and when I got to Dealey Plaza I was quite surprised at how inaccurately those photographs and diagrams failed to capture the layout and scale. That's why the question, "Have you been to Dealey Plaza?" is so acute. You really don't get a proper understanding of it from photos and diagrams.

I understand (WTC memorial in person encapsulates the enormity far better than a picture/diagram), however, are you saying someone at a frontal rightward angle from President Kennedy and LHO in the TSBD does not create a crossfire?

 

[Jango]

Um, this is part three. there are 10,000+ posts each in part I and II.

Makes it even worse.

 

[Jango]

Don't US Army snipers work in solo, two man teams, to avoid detection?

Snipers, be it an individual or a shooter/spotter/flanker combo by default of the term 'sniper' do their utmost to avoid detection.

The shooter is obviously the designated trigger man. The spotter is the person who helps coordinate the sniper's fire, telling him/her to adjust fire, helping with wind/atmospheric conditions, doing the communicating with outside parties (if it is allowed) for extraction or fire support and being, basically, the sniper's bodyguard as well replacement if the designated trigger man is taken out of action. The flanker, IIRC, is used primarily for rear security.

 

[Hans]

Makes it even worse.

Yes it does and in all that digital ink and 50 years no one has found a single thing to support the idea of conspiracy.

That should make a deeper thinker think - but will it?