Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[Wattson]

I've been most suspicious of the bra clasp DNA. I think that Steffi did "find" MK's DNA on the blade but clearly violated multiple rules and protocols. I think she hid records to cover her lack of proper procedure. I doubt very much that she thought the kids were innocent. Clearly they could have put an abundant amount of MK's DNA on the blade if they were framing the kids.

The police detective (Volturno) recorded Quintavalle and Curatolo's statements that countered what they eventually said.

What we don't know is how much exculpatory evidence they destroyed if they did.

It wouldn't shock me one bit to discover that the semen stain was tested and held back. The same goes for the mysterious hair that disappeared.

 

[Bill Williams]

If it is framing or not, is there any argument that it is manufactured evidence?

We need a term for evidence created by somebody which points to guilt but is not real evidence.

IMO - it was such an amateurish frame-up, if a frame-up at all, that it's hard to believe it was "intentional" is the strict definition of THAT term: intentional.

It looks more like a phenomenon as written in one of the Canadian studies about common elements in the wrongful convictions which have plagued Canada - that each one along the line only sees themselves with a small piece of the puzzle, and take a confirmation bias like this;

"If it's got this far to my desk, it must have some merit. Who am I to derail this, even if I have to help it along by looking the other way, besides surely someone up the line will catch it if we're all wrong."

In the case of AK and RS, it looks like it took the Italian Supreme Court to finally say, enough is enough. Exonerate them.

 

[Dougm]

It wouldn't shock me one bit to discover that the semen stain was tested and held back. The same goes for the mysterious hair that disappeared.

I find it almost impossible to believe that the semen stain was never tested. Even if they thought it would never be allowed into court, the idea the prosecution would prepare their case without knowing who that belonged to ... can't imagine. I think they tested it, and it is Rudy's, but since they didn't need it to convict Rudy, and it could hurt their case against Amanda and Raffaele, they have never released the results.

 

[davefoc]

... He was found and later convicted in Milan of possession of stolen loot. There was nothing in Perugia.

It surprises me after following this case all this time that there are still significant details that I don't know about. From this site:
http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/rudy-guede/

In April 2014 the Third Court of Appeal of Milan upheld Guede’s conviction for possession of stolen goods that he was caught with in Del Prato’s nursery and sentenced him to 16 months. In December 2014, the Supreme Court confirmed the conviction.

Probably almost everybody posting here is aware of this site and the page linked to above, but this page is the most comprehensive list of the overwhelming evidence for Guede's guilt that I've seen. The wounds on Guede's hands that are consistent with wounds that would have occurred from stabbing somebody and having one's hands slip from the hilt on to the blade is something I've haven't seen before.

This is a link to the video I was referring to:
The part where Moore starts blaming the Perugia police of intentionally not seeking out Guede and knowingly prosecuting innocent people begins at about the 24 minute mark.

I think I've seen the arguments on both sides of the issue and it appears to me that neither possibility is all that likely which is problematic since one of the two possibilities must be true. In these situations I rely on Grinder and since Grinder thinks it's unlikely that the police conspired to convict people that they knew to be innocent I'll go with that until I see some compelling evidence one way or the other.

Note I'd use the word frame here but in this situation I don't think it would annoy Grinder so I think it was correct not to use the term here.

 

[Grinder]

It wouldn't shock me one bit to discover that the semen stain was tested and held back. The same goes for the mysterious hair that disappeared.

I don't see how the hair would help the kids. The semen stain is baffling for sure - if it was Rudi's or Giacomo's I don't see the value of hiding it. Though not popular if it was a strangers that would "explain" Rudi's accomplices not being the kids although I'm sure the PGP would say it was another guy with AK.

 

[Grinder]

This does not prove the point I believe you are trying to make. Turin is not Perugia. The Internet is not North African drug dealers in person. Albanians are not 'Ndrangheta. For all we know, the 'Ndrangheta engineered the arrests to eliminate their competition.

Where is your link?

Here's one link

The Albanian connection with 'Ndrangheta came from Wiki but I learned of it from a poster at Frank's

The geographic vicinity, the accessibility to the E.U. through Italy, and the ties with the Calabrian and Apulia criminality have all contributed to the expansion of the Albanian criminality on the Italian scenario. Further factors relative to the economy have rendered the Albanian criminality even more competitive. In fact, some organizations which reached Italy in the early 1990s, infiltrated the Lombardy narco-traffic network run by the ‘ndrangheta. Albanian mafia leaders have reached stable agreements with the Italian criminal organizations, also with the mafia

Umbria was mentioned and as you know that's where Perugia is.

 

[Grinder]

Note I'd use the word frame here but in this situation I don't think it would annoy Grinder so I think it was correct not to use the term here.

Don't turn your back on your face.

 

[Wattson]

I don't see how the hair would help the kids. The semen stain is baffling for sure - if it was Rudi's or Giacomo's I don't see the value of hiding it. Though not popular if it was a strangers that would "explain" Rudi's accomplices not being the kids although I'm sure the PGP would say it was another guy with AK.

The hair was rumoured to be blonde leaving some to speculate that it was Amanda's. If, in fact it was Meredith's then that rumour goes away. How does a police force lose what could have been a critical piece of evidence? The same would apply with the semen stain. If it was Rudy's, then it help solidify the lone attacker scenario.

 

[davefoc]

I find it almost impossible to believe that the semen stain was never tested. Even if they thought it would never be allowed into court, the idea the prosecution would prepare their case without knowing who that belonged to ... can't imagine. I think they tested it, and it is Rudy's, but since they didn't need it to convict Rudy, and it could hurt their case against Amanda and Raffaele, they have never released the results.

A very strong point for which any kind of explanation other than the police were hiding something seems unlikely. But even with that, it's another leap to think people are conspiring to provide evidence against people that they know to be innocent. I'm still with Grinder here (and the apparent weak consensus) that the use of manufactured evidence and misrepresented evidence against AK/RS was probably done in an attempt to convict people they believed were guilty. But sometimes it is hard to believe that.

 

[Desert Fox]

The hair was rumoured to be blonde leaving some to speculate that it was Amanda's. If, in fact it was Meredith's then that rumour goes away. How does a police force lose what could have been a critical piece of evidence? The same would apply with the semen stain. If it was Rudy's, then it help solidify the lone attacker scenario.

How about the West Memphis police losing the "Mr Bojangles" sample

 

[Dougm]

I don't see how the hair would help the kids. The semen stain is baffling for sure - if it was Rudi's or Giacomo's I don't see the value of hiding it. Though not popular if it was a strangers that would "explain" Rudi's accomplices not being the kids although I'm sure the PGP would say it was another guy with AK.

Agree, but it seems pretty certain they did hide it, unless we want to believe they were content with just filing it away and never knowing if they had important evidence, or not.

We could take two approaches with this:

A) Since there is no evidence they tested it, accept it was not tested

B) Assume it must have been tested, and they decided not to disclose it because it did not help their case.

It could be a bit less nefarious, along the lines of "the prosecution knows whose it is, it doesn't help their case, but they would have disclosed the results if one of the judges agreed to allow it". Less of a conspiracy to hide it, and more of a plan to not disclose anything that doesn't help your case.

 

[Grinder]

The hair was rumoured to be blonde leaving some to speculate that it was Amanda's. If, in fact it was Meredith's then that rumour goes away. How does a police force lose what could have been a critical piece of evidence? The same would apply with the semen stain. If it was Rudy's, then it help solidify the lone attacker scenario.

Sure, but it wouldn't have a big impact. From recent revelations about FBI/US hair forensics it seems a fake science, which does raise the question as to why Steffi didn't have a breakthrough or two in the field.

 

[davefoc]

... The semen stain is baffling for sure - if it was Rudi's or Giacomo's I don't see the value of hiding it. Though not popular if it was a strangers that would "explain" Rudi's accomplices not being the kids although I'm sure the PGP would say it was another guy with AK.

Except for the ones who think she-devils can produce semen.

 

[Numbers]

I would argue that the lack of discovery validating the DNA results permits the conclusion that false evidence was created. If the raw data supported the findings it would have been produced. It rises to the level of intent to deceive the court. We must also consider that in her letter to Massei attempting to prevent the release of the raw data, Stefanoni made false claims, which appear to have gone unchallenged. There's a lot of evidence missing, much of which logically must be of an exculpatory nature.

I would add this summary about the bra clasp DNA tests and results from http://www.amandaknoxcase.com/lab-data-suppression/

Batch 5, which includes the bra clasp (Rep. 165), shows very serious problems. Demonstrable machine malfunction and obvious contamination render unreliable all of the quantification results for Batch 5; in other words, there is no reliable quantification result to show “abundant” DNA in Rep. 165b, as has been claimed. In addition, Rep. 165b (bra clasp hooks) apparently was profiled twice, with the results of the first analysis being suppressed by the prosecution. Record-keeping anomalies, together with the belated re-run of 165b, even suggest tampering with the results of the analyses for this exhibit. Generally, the contamination, machine malfunction, processing irregularities and record-keeping issues render unreliable the results reported for Batch 5, and raise serious questions about the integrity of the lab’s work.

ETA: There's a table at the end of the amandaknoxcase site section on DNA data suppression that summarizes Batches 1 through 4.

 

[Strozzi]

BTW several people agree with me, so your "you alone" is a lie. I hope I can say that because Anglo and others have countered you here on the meaning and who "won".

I am standing by acbytesla on the meaning of framing. I believe cops can frame an innocent person, at least that is the meaning I grew up with in Chicago. And if you don't accept it, remember there is "all the other evidence".

 

[Samson]

A very strong point for which any kind of explanation other than the police were hiding something seems unlikely. But even with that, it's another leap to think people are conspiring to provide evidence against people that they know to be innocent. I'm still with Grinder here (and the apparent weak consensus) that the use of manufactured evidence and misrepresented evidence against AK/RS was probably done in an attempt to convict people they believed were guilty. But sometimes it is hard to believe that.

I believe a recording or transcript of the meeting between Guede Biscotti and Mignini would allow for a determination of whether Mignini knew he was holding two innocent people and entering a nightmare of full blown career saving.

 

[Grinder]

I am standing by acbytesla on the meaning of framing. I believe cops can frame an innocent person, at least that is the meaning I grew up with in Chicago. And if you don't accept it, remember there is "all the other evidence".

Strozzi if you want to agree with Tesla you will have to believe they can frame a guilty person.

I absolutely and completely believe they can and have framed a person innocent of the crime charged.

Being a 2nd city sort of guy I would expect you would understand framing

I'm sure the Chicago cops also fabricated evidence against usual suspects that may well have been guilty.

 

[Grinder]

I believe a recording or transcript of the meeting between Guede Biscotti and Mignini would allow for a determination of whether Mignini knew he was holding two innocent people and entering a nightmare of full blown career saving.

Curious how that would have gone down? Why would M have confided in B?

One issue I have with career saving is that getting Rudi and explaining Amanda strangeness had caused the confusion would have sufficed.

 

[Samson]

Curious how that would have gone down? Why would M have confided in B?

One issue I have with career saving is that getting Rudi and explaining Amanda strangeness had caused the confusion would have sufficed.

To clarify, from memory the meeting was 7 hours and at the end Biscotti said Rudy did not name anyone because there was no one to name. Someone may do better than this, I think it was 17 11 07

 

[Grinder]

Article

Esplora il significato del termine: ROME - A new process could not ascertain the truth about the murder of Meredith Kercher. The ROME - A new process could not ascertain the truth about the murder of Meredith Kercher. The "proof used was so contradictory," it is impossible to overcome the doubts and inconsistencies. Therefore, after eight hours of discussion, the judges of the fifth section of the Court of Cassation, were all agreed on canceling the sentence to 28 years and six months for Amanda Knox and Raffaele 25 years "without referral." "Absurd," This is the shared line, it would be "to have a new trial relying on clues so fleeting."