I thought you were talking about Serapis. Please try to concentrate on one thing at a time.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
You should upgrade or use an alternative browser.
The Historical Jesus III
- Thread starter IanS
- Start date
- Status
- Not open for further replies.
Anything could be a dream, common at all times. Pliny knew who Serapis was, and if these people had been worshippers of that God, he would have said so, and thought nothing of it. Did Serapis worshippers refuse to venerate he image of the Emperor? Was the Serapian religion an illicit "superstition"?
Well if the Hadrian to Servianus 134 CE letter is real its followers were regarded "a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury". The fact that there are variants of this letter where Chrestians is replaced with Christians and Chrestus with Christ shows the degree of tinkering by the Christian copyists that was happening.
We know that in 19 CE Tiberius expelled both Jewish and Egyptian worshipers from Rome (Boatwright, Mary T. (2012) Peoples of the Roman World Cambridge University Press pg 123) which logically would have included followers of Serapis since the land for their Campus Martius had been sanctified in 43 BCE but the political turmoil prevented from actually being built but Caligula finally built it allowed them to return to Rome in the 37-41 period.
Geoff W. Adams notes that "Isis and Serapis were popular deities among many Romans, but the conservative of these beliefs saw them frequently being persecuted by the Roman State"
Last edited:
dejudge said:You have not and cannot answer any questions about YOUR HJ.
Christians of antiquity have ANSWERED the questions about the Nature of THEIR Jesus.
See gMark 6, gMark 9 and gMark 16.
See Matthew 1
See Luke 1
See John 1
See Acts 1
See Galatians 1
See 1 Corinthians 15
See "On the Flesh of Christ" attributed to Tertullian.
See "The Nicene Creed"
See "The Creed of 381.
Jesus of Nazareth was a Transfiguring Sea water walker, born of a Ghost and God Creator BEFORE he was RAISED from the dead and ascended in a cloud.
Your Jesus is imaginative FICTION.
When did YOUR Jesus die?
Jesus of Nazareth, the son of the Ghost, in the NT NEVER really died immediately after the crucifixion--He was found ALIVE three days AFTER he was crucified and buried.
In the NT, Jesus, God Creator, was ALIVE about 50 days AFTER he survived the crucifixion.
See Acts 1.
If YOUR Jesus died immediately after he was crucified then YOUR Jesus is UNDOCUMENTED or imaginative fiction.
I thought you were talking about Serapis. Please try to concentrate on one thing at a time.
You don't know what you are talking about.
You don't know when you HJ lived, where he lived, what he did while he was supposedly alive.
Your OBSCURE HJ was not the Christ.
Your HJ was not the founder of a new cult.
Your HJ is modern imaginative undocumented fiction.
"groups and places mentioned by Celsus were found in Asia.
"Celsus refers to places where “gods are to be seen in human form”
(Cels. VII, 35); they are in Boeotia, Greece, and Cilicia.
"Celsus also refers to miracles of Aristeas the Preconnesian, in northern Asia,
and “a certain Clazomenian,” (i.e., from near Smyrna; Cels. III, 3).
"In a favorable reference to Asclepius foretelling the future,
Celsus named cities dedicated to him (Cels. III, 3);
these cities are in Greece and Asia Minor, e.g., Pergamum.
"Angel worship plays a prominent role in Celsus’ condemnation
of Jews and Christians; this practice is attested in Asia Minor
(Cels. I, 26 and V, 6; see Burke 1981: 139–40; Johnson 1975; Kraabel 1968).
"Celsus is the only source for a group of Sibyllists (Cels. V, 61);
since such a group is otherwise unattested, they cannot be surely located,
but Phrygia (the birthplace of Montanism) was home to many “wandering prophets,”
who expected, and hoped for, an end to the world — the sort of people that worried Celsus".
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Celsus_of_Pergamum.pdf
Burke, GT. (1981) Celsus and Late Second Century Christianity.
Johnson, SE. (1975) Asia Minor and Early Christianity. pp. 77–145
Kraabel, AT. 1968 The Jews of Western Asia Minor under the Roman Empire.
"Celsus refers to places where “gods are to be seen in human form”
(Cels. VII, 35); they are in Boeotia, Greece, and Cilicia.
"Celsus also refers to miracles of Aristeas the Preconnesian, in northern Asia,
and “a certain Clazomenian,” (i.e., from near Smyrna; Cels. III, 3).
"In a favorable reference to Asclepius foretelling the future,
Celsus named cities dedicated to him (Cels. III, 3);
these cities are in Greece and Asia Minor, e.g., Pergamum.
"Angel worship plays a prominent role in Celsus’ condemnation
of Jews and Christians; this practice is attested in Asia Minor
(Cels. I, 26 and V, 6; see Burke 1981: 139–40; Johnson 1975; Kraabel 1968).
"Celsus is the only source for a group of Sibyllists (Cels. V, 61);
since such a group is otherwise unattested, they cannot be surely located,
but Phrygia (the birthplace of Montanism) was home to many “wandering prophets,”
who expected, and hoped for, an end to the world — the sort of people that worried Celsus".
http://people.duke.edu/~goranson/Celsus_of_Pergamum.pdf
Burke, GT. (1981) Celsus and Late Second Century Christianity.
Unpublished Ph. D. Dissertation. University of Iowa
Johnson, SE. (1975) Asia Minor and Early Christianity. pp. 77–145
in Christianity, Judaism and Other Greco-Roman Cults, vol. 2, ed. J. Neusner. Leiden: Brill.
Kraabel, AT. 1968 The Jews of Western Asia Minor under the Roman Empire.
Unpublished Ph. D. Dissertation. Harvard University
Yes there is. Pliny was familiar with Judaism, through the work of his uncle. He must have known that the "Christos" was not God in the theology of messianic Jews. Yet here he finds a sect that has deified the Christos to the point of singing hymns to him. He presents this to Trajan as excessive and depraved superstition.
I am astounded by these remarks, which seem merely silly. It is nor faith that makes me say that Pliny's uncle wrote about Judaea and its inhabitants or that Pliny the Younger studied his uncle's works. It is not faith but an estimate of high probability that leads me to conclude that Pliny was familiar with the concept of a Messiah, a Christos. Indeed he uses the expression. It is not faith that makes me state that he believed the Christians treated the Messiah as a God, or were guilty of excessive, depraved superstition. Pliny wrote these things in his report to Trajan.You're 'verbaling' Pliny. You're making a leap of faith.
and you seem Judaic-centric.
What on earth do you mean by "Judaic-centric"? We are discussing the Christian religion and the historicity of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew - never anything else - and the religion evolved out of a Jewish sect. How can it be Jewish-centric, whatever that may mean, to refer to Judaism in the course of an examination of Christian origins, and of the sources from which we obtain such information about them as we possess?
CraigB, I wasn't implying you had faith per se. I was implying you you were seeing Pliny's letter in a narrow way.
My point about Jewish-centric was that I was espousing a different view of references to Christ in the early 2nd century based on the presence of lots of non-Jewish religions.
Regards. I won't be around much for a while.
My point about Jewish-centric was that I was espousing a different view of references to Christ in the early 2nd century based on the presence of lots of non-Jewish religions.
Regards. I won't be around much for a while.
I am astounded by these remarks, which seem merely silly. It is nor faith that makes me say that Pliny's uncle wrote about Judaea and its inhabitants or that Pliny the Younger studied his uncle's works. It is not faith but an estimate of high probability that leads me to conclude that Pliny was familiar with the concept of a Messiah, a Christos. Indeed he uses the expression. It is not faith that makes me state that he believed the Christians treated the Messiah as a God, or were guilty of excessive, depraved superstition. Pliny wrote these things in his report to Trajan.
Your post resolves nothing. These are the facts.
1. The Pliny letter does NOT identify a character called Jesus of Nazareth.
2. The word "christos" cannot be shown to refer to YOUR Obscure HJ.
3. The word "christos" does not ONLY mean 'Messiah' it also means "anointed".
4. Your Obscure HJ was NOT the expected Jewish Messiah.
5.The Jews expected their prophesied Messianic ruler c 66-70 CE.
6. There is NO character identified as Jesus of Nazareth as a Jewish Messianic ruler outside Apologetics of antiquity.
7. All manuscripts with stories of Jesus are ACTUALLY dated to the 2nd century or later.
Craig B said:What on earth do you mean by "Judaic-centric"? We are discussing the Christian religion and the historicity of Jesus. Jesus was a Jew - never anything else - and the religion evolved out of a Jewish sect. How can it be Jewish-centric, whatever that may mean, to refer to Judaism in the course of an examination of Christian origins, and of the sources from which we obtain such information about them as we possess?
You write fiction or use Faith.
The NT was used by Christians of antiquity to specifically argue AGAINST an historical Jesus a man with a human father.
Jesus of the NT was NOT a Jew. Jesus of the NT was Born of a Ghost and a Virgin and was God who came down FROM heaven.
Jesus was GOD from the beginning, the Lord from heaven--Not a Jew.
The birth and origin of Jesus are specifically described in the NT and Writings of antiquity.
Aristides EXPLAINED the birth and origin of the Christians' Jesus to the ROMAN Emperor and Roman people in the 2nd century.
Examine Aristides' Apology
The Christians, then, trace the beginning of their religion from Jesus the Messiah; and he is named the Son of God Most High.
And it is said that God came down from heaven, and from a Hebrew virgin assumed and clothed himself with flesh; and the Son of God lived in a daughter of man.
This is taught in the gospel, as it is called, which a short time ago was preached among them...
Jesus of Nazareth was ALWAYS a Myth/Fiction character.
Jesus of Nazareth was GOD who came DOWN from heaven.
Obscure HJ is implausible and modern imaginative fiction.
Obscure HJ makes no sense.
Last edited:
That's another of the wonderful things you write from time to time dejudge. I treasure these things.... The word "christos" does not ONLY mean 'Messiah' it also means "anointed".
http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Names_of_G-d/Messiah/messiah.htmlThe word "Messiah" (mashiach) comes from the verb mashach, which means to smear or anoint with oil, usually for the purpose of dedicating or consecrating something (such as a temple vessel) or someone (such as a prophet, priest or king) for the service of Adonai.
Jesus of the NT was a Celestial being who came down from heaven.
It is documented.
1 Corinthians 15:47 ---The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
If it is argued that the Pauline writer preached that Jesus was the Lord from heaven since the time of King Aretas then Jesus was KNOWN as a Celestial being since at least 37-41 CE.
It must also be noted that a Pauline writer claimed he preached the same Faith he persecuted.
Jesus was known as a Celestial being who came down from heaven BEFORE the Pauline Corpus was written.
It is documented.
1 Corinthians 15:47 ---The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
If it is argued that the Pauline writer preached that Jesus was the Lord from heaven since the time of King Aretas then Jesus was KNOWN as a Celestial being since at least 37-41 CE.
It must also be noted that a Pauline writer claimed he preached the same Faith he persecuted.
Jesus was known as a Celestial being who came down from heaven BEFORE the Pauline Corpus was written.
Last edited:
And he had brothers living in Galilee: James, Judas, Simeon, and Joses. And unnamed sisters. And his mother and his brothers thought he had gone nuts, in Mark 3.Jesus of the NT was a Celestial being who came down from heaven.
I
Hey, the Mother of God thinks the Celestial Second Person of the Trinity has gone bananas. Happens all the time, I suppose.
I
ETA Oh you've done a big edited to add, following the mysterious "I" in your last line. Good stuff.
Last edited:
And he had brothers living in Galilee: James, Judas, Simeon, and Joses. And unnamed sisters. And his mother and his brothers thought he had gone nuts, in Mark 3.
You write fiction. You mis-represent Mark 3.
I want everyone who has a copy of gMark to look at MARK 3.35.
The MOTHER, BROTHERS and SISTERS of Jesus are those who do the Will of God.
Christians of antiquity have ALREADY stated that Jesus, the Lord from heaven had NO brother called James the Apostle.
Craig B said:Hey, the Mother of God thinks the Celestial Second Person of the Trinity has gone bananas. Happens all the time, I suppose.
Your Suppositions are worthless.
In gMark Jesus, the son of the Blessed, TRANSFIGURED AFTER he walked on water.
gMark's Jesus did NOT have human flesh.
The specific gravity, biology and anatomy of the human body does NOT allow WATER walking or transfigurations.
Last edited:
ButYou write fiction. You mis-represent Mark 3.
I want everyone who has a copy of gMark to look at MARK 3.35.
The MOTHER, BROTHERS and SISTERS of Jesus are those who do the Will of God.
Mark 3:20 Then Jesus entered a house, and again a crowd gathered, so that he and his disciples were not even able to eat. 21 When his family heard about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, “He is out of his mind.”
Therefore they didn't happen. But the specific gravity of the human brain allows a person to be "out of his mind". Therefore that may very well have happened.The specific gravity of the human body does NOT allow WATER walking or transfigurations.
Don't you agree that such things are possible, dejudge? I think they are.
Last edited:
But Therefore they didn't happen. But the specific gravity of the human brain allows a person to be "out of his mind". Therefore that may very well have happened.
It is clear that you have no idea what 'specific gravity' means.
Well, you've told me it prevents Transfiguration from happening, so it must be something that's able to stop this.It is clear that you have no idea what 'specific gravity' means.
So maybe it's something that makes Moses and Elijah shut up.In these accounts, Jesus and three of his apostles, Peter, James and John, go to a mountain (the Mount of Transfiguration). On the mountain, Jesus begins to shine with bright rays of light. Then the prophets Moses and Elijah appear next to him and he speaks with them. Jesus is then called "Son" by a voice in the sky, assumed to be God the Father, as in the Baptism of Jesus.
It might be whisky that performs that feat; for it can have that effect after a few glasses. We Scots are familiar with the expression "specific gravity" in that context.
.Specific gravity is the ratio of the density of a sample [of spirit] to the density of water. The ratio depends on the temperature and pressure of both the sample and water. The pressure is always considered (in brewing) to be 1 atmosphere (1013.25 hPa) and the temperature is usually 20 °C for both sample and water but in some parts of the world different temperatures may be used
Well, you've told me it prevents Transfiguration from happening, so it must be something that's able to stop this. So maybe it's something that makes Moses and Elijah shut up.
It might be whisky that performs that feat; for it can have that effect after a few glasses. We Scots are familiar with the expression "specific gravity" in that context..
You still have no idea what 'specific gravity' means.
gMark is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a Myth/Fiction character WITHOUT a human body.
A person without a body went nuts? Jesus' family didn't notice that he didn't have a body? That is, like totally weird, man!You still have no idea what 'specific gravity' means.
gMark is evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a Myth/Fiction character WITHOUT a human body.
If I don't know what specific gravity means, why don't you tell me? I told you what it means in the spirit trade. What is the specific gravity of the Holy Spirit, by the way?
A person without a body went nuts? Jesus' family didn't notice that he didn't have a body? That is, like totally weird, man!
What absurdities you post!!!!
Jesus walked on water and transfigured with a human body--That is, like totally weird man.
Craig B said:If I don't know what specific gravity means, why don't you tell me? I told you what it means in the spirit trade. What is the specific gravity of the Holy Spirit, by the way?
Please, just read gMark 6.49 and John 6.19 then go jump in a lake and start walking.
By the way, according to gJohn 6, Jesus walked on the water for about 3 miles or 25-30 furlongs.
gMark and gJohn are evidence that Jesus of Nazareth was a myth/fiction character WITHOUT a human body.
Examine Contra Faustum 2
1. Faustus said: Do I believe the gospel? Certainly.
Do I therefore believe that Christ was born? Certainly not.
It does not follow that because I believe the gospel, as I do, I must therefore believe that Christ was born. This I do not believe; because Christ does not say that He was born of men......
Jesus was a Myth/Fiction character WITHOUT a human body and without a birth narrative in gMark.
And he had brothers living in Galilee: James, Judas, Simeon, and Joses. And unnamed sisters. And his mother and his brothers thought he had gone nuts, in Mark 3.
Hey, the Mother of God thinks the Celestial Second Person of the Trinity has gone bananas. Happens all the time, I suppose.
And the elephant in the living room here is that since the family thought he had gone nuts, they had obviously not had any woo-woo visits from angels at all, back when Mary was pregnant. Instead, Jesus's talk about Kingdom of God and blah blah blah was a -- nasty -- bolt from the blue for them. DeJudge goes banging on and on about Jesus as some supernatural baby, but here's something right in the same accounts showing Jesus's folks not only oblivious of any of that supernatural stuff about their own kid but freaked out when their own kid talks like that!
CONTRADICTION ANYONE?! Duh.
It's obvious that we have a major OOPS in Mark here where the real history accidentally peeks out, and the crap about supernatural birth is shown up as simply added later, as if to say, yeah sure, Jesus's mom knew he was deep and wise all along (I offer a bridge for sale).
Stone
Yes. Mark says nothing about any magic birth. Neither does Paul. Neither does Jesus in any if the synoptic sayings sources. Nor do any of the non-Pauline epistles.It's obvious that we have a major OOPS in Mark here where the real history accidentally peeks out, and the crap about supernatural birth is shown up as simply added later, as if to say, yeah sure, Jesus's mom knew he was deep and wise all along (I offer a bridge for sale).
Stone
Our only informants are gMatthew and gLuke, and they disagree on almost every detail of the alleged event.
Yes. Mark says nothing about any magic birth. Neither does Paul. Neither does Jesus in any if the synoptic sayings sources. Nor do any of the non-Pauline epistles.
Our only informants are gMatthew and gLuke, and they disagree on almost every detail of the alleged event.
And I wonder why there are infinitely more discrepancies around the very few accounts of the so-called virgin birth and the post-Resurrection zombie walks than there are around the sayings that gMatt./gLuke -- and gMark -- and gThomas -- and 1 Corinthians -- all have in common. It couldn't be that those parallel sayings emerged just a teensy weensy bit earlier, could it?
Nah...........
Stone
- Status
- Not open for further replies.