"...have there ever been proven conspiracies?..."

[Jango]

Discussed extensively in a California drought thread. General consensus being that it's too far, too expensive and The Rockies are a real nuisance to get over. Piping water down from WA/OR was seen as a much more sensible option, along with abandoning Californian agriculture if the situation persists (iirc).

The need for potable water to sustain life is obviously not going to end. And potable water scarcity is already an issue the world over. If the drought continues to squeeze the West and portions of the Midwest, decisions are going to need to be made to try and alleviate the seriousness of the issue because I wholeheartedly doubt that state/federal decision makers are thinking that they can run out the clock and persevere without having to look outside of the state's borders for a solution.

In the coming years, potable water and access to it will be a geopolitical flashpoint equivalent to the aggressive defense of oil and the access to it.

 

[LSSBB]

The need for potable water to sustain life is obviously not going to end. And potable water scarcity is already an issue the world over. If the drought continues to squeeze the West and portions of the Midwest, decisions are going to need to be made to try and alleviate the seriousness of the issue because I wholeheartedly doubt that state/federal decision makers are thinking that they can run out the clock and persevere without having to look outside of the state's borders for a solution.

In the coming years, potable water and access to it will be a geopolitical flashpoint equivalent to the aggressive defense of oil and the access to it.

http://www.waterforpeople.org/

 

[Ladewig]

The need for potable water to sustain life is obviously not going to end. And potable water scarcity is already an issue the world over. If the drought continues to squeeze the West and portions of the Midwest, decisions are going to need to be made to try and alleviate the seriousness of the issue because I wholeheartedly doubt that state/federal decision makers are thinking that they can run out the clock and persevere without having to look outside of the state's borders for a solution.

In the coming years, potable water and access to it will be a geopolitical flashpoint equivalent to the aggressive defense of oil and the access to it.

Didn't the Pentagon already release a report about how water would be a major factor in international politics over the next several decades? The Feds are mighty aware of coming water problems.

 

[Jango]

Didn't the Pentagon already release a report about how water would be a major factor in international politics over the next several decades? The Feds are mighty aware of coming water problems.

As did the U.N.

 

[JayUtah]

I think we'd be hard pressed to find a more acute source of political tension anywhere than the possession and allocation of natural resources. And coming back to the OP, there is a history in California of heated contention over water policy, including the famous Eaton/Mulhulland affairs that would probably qualify as a conspiracy under the OP's definition.

I too live in a water-poor state, albeit one with a workable reclamation plan. However this year we have a political flap over the water use projections, which some say have been inflated in order to give work to civil engineering firms.

 

[Pooneil]

In the coming years, potable water and access to it will be a geopolitical flashpoint equivalent to the aggressive defense of oil and the access to it.

Fortunately most of the people in the world live in regions where drinking water can be manufactured and distributed with existing technology. That is close to an ocean. What we have, mostly, is a reluctance by elected officials to bill for the cost and a reluctance by residents to pay much more for what has been a low cost staple. Also industries, jobs and people will migrate away from resource scarce areas, over time as the cost rises, as they always have.

 

[JayUtah]

Cost is the other side of the tension equation. I was living in California in 2000 during the electricity crisis, caused by energy market manipulation -- another conspiracy, although largely non-governmental. Price-fixing and the creation of artificial scarcity led to the crisis not because there wasn't enough of the resource, but because the custodians of the resource found ways to make people agree to pay more for it than it was worth.

 

[Bubba]

I get really tired of conspiracy nuts saying "there have been real conspiracies!" as if that makes their mythology credible.

Maybe that's because you already know there have been real conspiracies, and they behave as if you don't?

Where less informed 'conformists' are ignorant of this, they sometimes seem conditioned to sneer at any suggestion (without the 'C' word) of collusion in high offices. "Oh, that sounds like a Conspiracy Theory, (giggle, smirk)". It happens. It could be bad for justice.

Perhaps therefore, some theorists (nut or not) probably feel their babies get thrown out with the bath water, since the term Conspiracy Theory became code for cuckoo. It is good for bad crooks in power....Bad for good whistleblowers.

 

[Ladewig]

Maybe that's because you already know there have been real conspiracies, and they behave as if you don't?

Where less informed 'conformists' are ignorant of this, they sometimes seem conditioned to sneer at any suggestion (without the 'C' word) of collusion in high offices. "Oh, that sounds like a Conspiracy Theory, (giggle, smirk)". It happens. It could be bad for justice.

Perhaps therefore, some theorists (nut or not) probably feel their babies get thrown out with the bath water, since the term Conspiracy Theory became code for cuckoo. It is good for bad crooks in power....Bad for good whistleblowers.

Can you give an example of a whistleblower coming forward with evidence and having the crime dismissed as a conspiracy theory?

ETA
You really don't see a bright line between Watergate and George-Bush-planned-9/11 ?
Between Iran-Contra and no-one-died-at-Sandy-Hook ?

 

[Jango]

I think we'd be hard pressed to find a more acute source of political tension anywhere than the possession and allocation of natural resources. And coming back to the OP, there is a history in California of heated contention over water policy, including the famous Eaton/Mulhulland affairs that would probably qualify as a conspiracy under the OP's definition.

I too live in a water-poor state, albeit one with a workable reclamation plan. However this year we have a political flap over the water use projections, which some say have been inflated in order to give work to civil engineering firms.

Women.

 

[Jango]

Can you give an example of a whistleblower coming forward with evidence and having the crime dismissed as a conspiracy theory?

ETA
You really don't see a bright line between Watergate and George-Bush-planned-9/11 ?
Between Iran-Contra and no-one-died-at-Sandy-Hook ?

Meaning what?

 

[Ladewig]

Meaning what?

Meaning That there is a very noticeable difference between criminal conspiracies at the highest levels of government and a conspiracy theories involving the highest levels of government. Bubba was asserting that actual criminal conspiracies are falsely labelled conspiracy theories often enough that it makes it "bad for whistleblowers." I was asserting that the false labeling does not occur often enough to make it "good for criminals."

 

[BazBear]

Meaning That there is a very noticeable difference between criminal conspiracies at the highest levels of government and a conspiracy theories involving the highest levels of government. Bubba was asserting that actual criminal conspiracies are falsely labelled conspiracy theories often enough that it makes it "bad for whistleblowers." I was asserting that the false labeling does not occur often enough to make it "good for criminals."

Indeed. In fact I have to wonder if the sort of tilting at windmills behavior that CTists typically engage in is actually counterproductive, at least at some level, to detecting actual conspiracies. Asking questions is fine; in fact necessary. But repeatedly asking the same questions, that have in the main been adequately answered to any reasonable person's expectations, simply raises the noise in the signal to noise ratio (so to speak). While the CT crowd continue to poke sticks at the minutia of events that happened years or decades ago, investigative journalists, law enforcement officials, and whistle-blowers are the ones who actually uncover true criminal conspiracies.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Maybe that's because you already know there have been real conspiracies, and they behave as if you don't?

I would say "read the thread", but your filters seem to be firmly cemented in place.

 

[Gawdzilla Sama]

Meaning That there is a very noticeable difference between criminal conspiracies at the highest levels of government and a conspiracy theories involving the highest levels of government. Bubba was asserting that actual criminal conspiracies are falsely labelled conspiracy theories often enough that it makes it "bad for whistleblowers." I was asserting that the false labeling does not occur often enough to make it "good for criminals."

The only ones who pay any real attention to conspiracy myths are Hollywood and the trashy book industry.

 

[LSSBB]

Indeed. In fact I have to wonder if the sort of tilting at windmills behavior that CTists typically engage in is actually counterproductive, at least at some level, to detecting actual conspiracies. Asking questions is fine; in fact necessary. But repeatedly asking the same questions, that have in the main been adequately answered to any reasonable person's expectations, simply raises the noise in the signal to noise ratio (so to speak). While the CT crowd continue to poke sticks at the minutia of events that happened years or decades ago, investigative journalists, law enforcement officials, and whistle-blowers are the ones who actually uncover true criminal conspiracies.

In the case of Gladio, which comes close to looking like what CTers call conspiracies (secret disguised army, commits acts of violence, NATO cold war shenanigans), a judge uncovered it while researching a criminal case. No conspiracy theory ahead of time: conspiracists were oblivious to Gladio's existence.

 

[Jango]

In the case of Gladio, which comes close to looking like what CTers call conspiracies (secret disguised army, commits acts of violence, NATO cold war shenanigans), a judge uncovered it while researching a criminal case. No conspiracy theory ahead of time: conspiracists were oblivious to Gladio's existence.

I.e. a conspiracy.

 

[Dave Rogers]

Perhaps therefore, some theorists (nut or not) probably feel their babies get thrown out with the bath water, since the term Conspiracy Theory became code for cuckoo.

But inferring that a specific conspiracy theory has merit from the observation that some conspiracies are known to exist is no more valid than inferring the presence of a baby from the observation that there is water in the bath.

Dave

 

[Ladewig]

Where less informed 'conformists' are ignorant of this, they sometimes seem conditioned to sneer at any suggestion (without the 'C' word) of collusion in high offices. "Oh, that sounds like a Conspiracy Theory, (giggle, smirk)". It happens. It could be bad for justice.

I am not sure how often "less-informed 'conformists'" are the ones who whip out the label of Conspiracy Theory when encountering criminal collusion in high offices. For instance, when there was just enough evidence in the RCC abuse scandal to see that something was happening but not enough to see that it was a systematic, wide-spread conspiracy to shield dangerous criminals, the folks yelling Conspiracy Theory were not skeptics or pseudo-skeptics or less-informed conformists. The folks yelling Conspiracy Theory were the officials at the RCC who were trying to prevent further investigation.

Least-wise, that's how I remember it. I'll retract this post if I have it backwards.

 

[Bubba]

Indeed. In fact I have to wonder if the sort of tilting at windmills behavior that CTists typically engage in is actually counterproductive, at least at some level, to detecting actual conspiracies....

Seems likely, ala the boy who cried wolf. Probably cuts both ways. Some wolves are good at staying out of sight.

I heard that emergency vehicle sirens are, or should be, periodically given a new sound in order to stay ahead of motorist complacency with the familiar.

Sounds like Gladio was a successful undetected conspiracy until it was exposed. That and other conspiracies in high offices are sometimes found backstage. How often? I wonder if actuaries have numbers on that. Dont actuaries rate just about everything?

IMO we can assume conspiracies are always playing out somewhere because they can work well for crooks. Greedy scams and bad guys are a dime a dozen these days. We cannot know every time a successful conspiracy is unfolding before us.

It's good that concerned sharp minds are tirelessly separating the wheat from the chaff.