Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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I disagree strenuously with Pixel42.

Pointless repetition of the same old nonsense and arguments that go in circles for literal years of wasted time are a fine tradition of these forums, and I'll not see our core values so flagrantly spat upon. So long as there is life in my fingers, I swear before Randi that the bickering shall continue.
 
Jabba said:
wollery said:
This is something that you've never really addressed Jabba. Why does the likelihood of the shroud being authentic increase at all if the stains are really blood?
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Wollery,
- I will get to that after I figure that we've presented all the significant evidence re the existence of blood on the Shroud. If I had a helper on my side, He/she could be dealing with your question. Individually, I'm strapped trying to present the pro side for blood and for my format. I should probably drop the latter for now.
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- It turns out that I (still) think that Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor -- and further, that if Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor, that the likelihood that the shroud is authentic -- and, 2000 years old -- is significantly decreased.
- I will get to why the likelihood of the shroud being authentic decreases if Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor after I figure that we've presented all the significant evidence re Chewbacca living on the planet Endor.
- There is lots of evidence. I'll go back to digging it up.
- I'll be back.
 
Nonpareil said:
I disagree strenuously with Pixel42.

Pointless repetition of the same old nonsense and arguments that go in circles for literal years of wasted time are a fine tradition of these forums, and I'll not see our core values so flagrantly spat upon. So long as there is life in my fingers, I swear before Randi that the bickering shall continue.
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Not to mention, Mr. Savage once claimed that he had "won", because people stopped disagreeing with him.
 
Mojo said:
- It turns out that I (still) think that Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor -- and further, that if Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor, that the likelihood that the shroud is authentic -- and, 2000 years old -- is significantly decreased.
- I will get to why the likelihood of the shroud being authentic decreases if Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor after I figure that we've presented all the significant evidence re Chewbacca living on the planet Endor.
- There is lots of evidence. I'll go back to digging it up.
- I'll be back.
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:bigclap
 
zooterkin said:
So, what you're saying is that the shroud was put in a time machine shortly after the imprint of Christ was made on it, and transported 1400 years into the future...

:duck:
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Or that the shroud was created in the 14th century, transported by a time machine to the first century to take an inprint of the body of Jesus of Nazareth after his death and then transported back to his century and place of origin.
 
Degeneve said:
Or that the shroud was created in the 14th century, transported by a time machine to the first century to take an inprint of the body of Jesus of Nazareth after his death and then transported back to his century and place of origin.
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That's likely what happened because every jump back has to be accompanied by a corresponding jump forward. I have evidence of this which I will get back to.
 
Jabba said:
Wollery,
- I will get to that after I figure that we've presented all the significant evidence re the existence of blood on the Shroud. If I had a helper on my side, He/she could be dealing with your question. Individually, I'm strapped trying to present the pro side for blood and for my format. I should probably drop the latter for now.
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"Whether your point is true or not wouldn't matter at all to your overall argument!"
"But I am not done discussing my point yet."

The reason the term "It's academic" is not a usually considered a compliment.

It also relates to why there are all these posting about if it is real blood or not, when we know the Shroud is roughly a thousand years too young for it to be authentic. One thing at a time...
 
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Loss Leader said:
That's likely what happened because every jump back has to be accompanied by a corresponding jump forward. I have evidence of this which I will get back to.
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But it's a step to the left and a jump to the right, and we're back in a time warp ... did I get that right? I will get back to this.
 
Rincewind said:
I nominated this.

I'm a non-scientist, so need the experts here to translate the science stuff into English.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this clearly looks like a devastating refutation...
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Nah, I'd say only 10% devastating.


Craig4 said:
So this Jesus guy was the only living creature that had blood inside his body?
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Perhaps a more definitive test would be for the detection of tannins?
 
Nonpareil said:
I disagree strenuously with Pixel42.

Pointless repetition of the same old nonsense and arguments that go in circles for literal years of wasted time are a fine tradition of these forums, and I'll not see our core values so flagrantly spat upon. So long as there is life in my fingers, I swear before Randi that the bickering shall continue.
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Like I said, it's hard to leave wilful ignorance unchallenged. :)

But in this case I really do think it's time we left Jabba to enjoy his fantasies, and stopped encouraging his mistaken belief that we think they're worthy of our attention.

Slowvehicle said:
Not to mention, Mr. Savage once claimed that he had "won", because people stopped disagreeing with him.
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Shroudies are gonna be shroudies. :shrug: Anyone who doesn't desperately want to believe in this particular fantasy knows that the argument was won in 1988.
 
Blood

- Could be that before I try to show that the stains are blood, I should try to show how blood supports authenticity, or go back to trying to show that the carbon dating is wrong. Both make sense.
- However, I don't think that it will ultimately matter where I start -- and, I do think that shifting focus back and forth does matter, and I've been back and forth too many times already. So for now, I'll stick with trying to support the claim that the stains are blood.
Jabba said:
- From http://www.shroud.com/pdfs/ford1.pdf.

Regarding the ‘blood,’ Heller and Adler (hereafter H&A) concluded that it was actual blood material on the basis of physics-based and chemistrybased testing, most tests of which will be discussed, specifically the following: detection of higher-thanelsewhere levels of iron in ‘blood’ areas via X-ray fluorescence, indicative spectra obtained by microspectrophotometry, generation with chemicals and ultraviolet light of characteristic porphyrin fluorescence, positive tests for hemochromagen using hydrazine, positive tests for cyanmethemoglobin using a neutralized cyanide solution, positive tests for the bile pigment bilirubin, positive tests for protein, and use of proteolytic enzymes on ‘blood’ material, leaving no residues. The tests and data not discussed are the reflection spectra indicative of bilirubin’s32 and blood’s presence,33 chemical detection of the specific protein albumin,34 the presence of serum halos around various ‘blood’ marks when viewed under ultraviolet light,35 the immunological determination that the ‘blood’ is of primate origin,36 and the forensic judgement that the various blood and wound marks appear extremely realistic.37
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Slowvehicle said:
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11. I have pointed out to you the problem with claiming that the "blood" stains on the CIQ show "serum rings" before. As a refresher, any dense pigment in a water-based vehicle will show retraction rings, if it is dropped (as opposded to brushed, or daubed) on an absorptive surface.

Strike eleven...
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- Strike eleven seems especially important, and (even for me) easy to rebut. Why would the artist drop the paint? And, the rings aren't around individual round drops: they're around shaped 'wounds.'
 
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It doesn't matter if it is blood or not unless you can demonstrate that the shroud is 2000 years old. Pay attention.
 
MRC_Hans said:
OK, Jabba, I'll discuss blod with you. For the sake of discussion, I'll concede that the shroud contains spots of blood. No, you can't cite me elsewhere for that; the concession is made to get over a dead spot.

So, assuming there is blood, what then?

Hans
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Hans,
- As you probably know by now, I like hypotheticals -- so, I do appreciate your approach, and do feel the need to respond. But for now, appreciation has to be the extent of my response.
 
Jabba said:
- Could be that before I try to show that the stains are blood, I should try to show how blood supports authenticity, or go back to trying to show that the carbon dating is wrong. Both make sense.
- However, I don't think that it will ultimately matter where I start -- and, I do think that shifting focus back and forth does matter, and I've been back and forth too many times already. So for now, I'll stick with trying to support the claim that the stains are blood.
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This is what you just said, "I realize that the subject of blood is irrelevant to the authenticity of the shroud, but I'm going to talk about it anyway."
 
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