Continuation Part 16: Amanda Knox/Raffaele Sollecito

[christianahannah]

Along with your follow-up, I would like to stay focused on my question to Vixen, who claimed that several judges believed Amanda wielded the knife.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10678207&postcount=213

So far on this page we have learned that Stefanoni and Comodi both believed it, and we know Mignini believed it, but none of them is a judge. I would like to know specifically whether any judges other than Nencini openly stated they believed Amanda wielded the knife. Since Vixen made the claim, Vixen should provide citations.

I think Massei more or less makes this claim, however, it might be my reading comprehension which is faulty so I hope others will read and give their opinion.

While he didn't use the exact words "Amanda wielded the knife," Massei said on page 375 this:

The dynamic requires the presence of a second attacker, of a second knife. This Court holds that the second attacker is Amanda Knox and the second knife is Exhibit 36.

And on page 376 this:

It must be also emphasised that the presence of biological traces discovered on the handle of this knife, - and on which, regarding its attribution to Amanda, there was advanced no particular censure nor perplexity, - appears more likely to have been derived from her having held the knife to strike, rather than from having used it to cut some food.

There is some more to read before page 375 and after page 376, however, I don't know if that will add any more clarity to the subject.

 

[lonepinealex]

Absolutely not. It's just that quite often a claim is made and then the discussion goes far afield and the claim is forgotten, or worse, false claims are believed, even set in stone.

The discussion stays more focused when claims are supported. If they cannot be supported, they can be discarded. This is how we have gotten rid of a lot of false information over the years.

I know, I was just being facetious, sorry. If we had to wait for Vixen to support her claims we'd have stopped weeks ago...

 

[Mary_H]

I think Massei more or less makes this claim, however, it might be my reading comprehension which is faulty so I hope others will read and give their opinion.

While he didn't use the exact words "Amanda wielded the knife," Massei said on page 375 this:



And on page 376 this:



There is some more to read before page 375 and after page 376, however, I don't know if that will add any more clarity to the subject.

Thank you very much, christianahannah; that's just the kind of thing I was looking for.

Now I hope we see some records of what the pre-trial judges thought.

 

[Mary_H]

I know, I was just being facetious, sorry. If we had to wait for Vixen to support her claims we'd have stopped weeks ago...

Oh, sorry.

 

[Grinder]

Bill here's more from 2 BBW - BY ANDREA VOGT, SPECIAL TO SEATTLEPI.COM
Updated 10:00 pm, Sunday, September 13, 2009

The detailed information provided by Stefanoni formed the basis for a number of significant concerns raised by Monday's witness, Professor Adriano Tagliabracci, director of the Forensic Institute of Ancona and president of the Italian Association of Forensic Genetics,

Tagliabracci raised doubts about several of the DNA results presented by Stefanoni last May and pointed out missing data, potential protocol missteps and at least one glaring inconsistency.

Specifically, he took Stefanoni to task for incomplete documentation of her scientific process and even produced a daily registry from the machine that detected Knox's and the victim's DNA on the knife and showed where Stefanoni had handwritten "too low" four times.

"It could be contamination of the laboratory. It could have been anything," Tagliabracci said. "''Too low' means it should not have been used for analysis."

He also pointed out contradictions between the results and what Stefanoni actually wrote in her technical report. Specifially, Stefanoni wrote that a mattress cover from the downstairs apartment had tested positive for cat blood and negative for human DNA, when the actual results showed a positive result for human DNA.

He also criticized Stefanoni for positively attributing DNA to Sollecito, despite what many labs would consider a "low copy number." The odds that the genetic profile was Sollecito's were such that it could have matched 500 people in the city of Perugia, population 360,000, he said.

But he also later argued the clasp could have been contaminated in the course of the 47 days after Kercerh's death that it was left behind at the crime scene.

 

[Bill Williams]

Bill here's more from 2 BBW - BY ANDREA VOGT, SPECIAL TO SEATTLEPI.COM
Updated 10:00 pm, Sunday, September 13, 2009

The detailed information provided by Stefanoni formed the basis for a number of significant concerns raised by Monday's witness, Professor Adriano Tagliabracci, director of the Forensic Institute of Ancona and president of the Italian Association of Forensic Genetics,

Tagliabracci raised doubts about several of the DNA results presented by Stefanoni last May and pointed out missing data, potential protocol missteps and at least one glaring inconsistency.

Specifically, he took Stefanoni to task for incomplete documentation of her scientific process and even produced a daily registry from the machine that detected Knox's and the victim's DNA on the knife and showed where Stefanoni had handwritten "too low" four times.

"It could be contamination of the laboratory. It could have been anything," Tagliabracci said. "''Too low' means it should not have been used for analysis."

He also pointed out contradictions between the results and what Stefanoni actually wrote in her technical report. Specifially, Stefanoni wrote that a mattress cover from the downstairs apartment had tested positive for cat blood and negative for human DNA, when the actual results showed a positive result for human DNA.

He also criticized Stefanoni for positively attributing DNA to Sollecito, despite what many labs would consider a "low copy number." The odds that the genetic profile was Sollecito's were such that it could have matched 500 people in the city of Perugia, population 360,000, he said.

But he also later argued the clasp could have been contaminated in the course of the 47 days after Kercerh's death that it was left behind at the crime scene.

Ya - that was so convincing, even to Vogt, she completely did a 180 afterwards.

 

[acbytesla]

I'm not sure how anyone with half a brain can defend the Nencini court on anything.

The 2013 ISC referred three issues back to the 2nd grade, appeals court; presumably those three issues formed the core of why the 2013 ISC annulled the Hellmann acquittals/exonerations.
All three of those outstanding items went the defences' way. All three. If 36I had gone any other way than what the RIS Carabinieri found, I'd be a guilter.
Stunningly, Nencini's court convicted anyway. Whereas I do not subscribe to some weird conspiracy theory that Nencini purposely wrote a bizarre motivations report so as to have his verdict thrown out..... it is tempting to believe it.

June 25 is 90 days from the Cassazione exonerations. The Marasca motivations report cannot come quickly enough.

Really Bill? There is NOTHING that they could have found about 36I that could persuade me that knife was used in Meredith's murder. It didn't match the wounds, the stains on the sheet and it is a very unlikely weapon.

 

[Vixen]

Apparently you know as little about that case as you do this one. Joanna'a own family said that Joanna had serious problems. Joanna fully admits all of her crimes and describes herself as a monster.

And by the way, there is no link between promiscuity and violence. NONE. So the idea that just because a woman or a man enjoys sex does not mean ANYTHING. Do you think there is?
Hmmmmmmmm.

There is an established link between prostitution and violence. It simply isn't safe for a young person to sleep with random strangers, usually older men, many of whom are predators and ply their young prey with drugs and alcohol.

Joanne, like Amanda, was described by witnesses, including police, as being in a state of euphoria after the murder, and even flirted with the police ("Ta-da!" shimmied Amanda).

Joanne posed the body of her victim, Kevin Lee, to make it look like rape. Mez' body had been similarly posed.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda submitted a written assignment to her teacher on the Monday or Tuesday. (Her teacher gave it to the police after Amanda was arrested.). Amanda did homework.

Why do you want to deny that she studied her lessons?

As a simple language school, any homework was optional, not accredited as course work towards a module.

 

[Vixen]

And in the course of her fabulously elaborate clean-up, she didn't think to wipe it off.

The father of forensic criminology, French criminologist Dr Edmond Locard said, ‘That a criminal will always carry away with him some trace from the scene of his crime, and leave some of his presence behind’.

It's my belief perp B was the "brains" behind the clean-up. Perp A was just too dumb, or arrogant, to care about a "speckle" of blood. Certainly put perp B "in it", by failing to remove the incriminating bathmat.

 

[carbonjam72]

Along with your follow-up, I would like to stay focused on my question to Vixen, who claimed that several judges believed Amanda wielded the knife.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10678207&postcount=213

So far on this page we have learned that Stefanoni and Comodi both believed it, and we know Mignini believed it, but none of them is a judge. I would like to know specifically whether any judges other than Nencini openly stated they believed Amanda wielded the knife. Since Vixen made the claim, Vixen should provide citations.

Sadly, Mignini was at the time technically considered a "judge" however bizarre that sounds. What does Simon Cowell think?

As for a desire to limit discussion in hopes of staying on topic, voluntary rules don't seem to work too well in the absence of good faith, tsall I'm saying.

 

[Grinder]

Ya - that was so convincing, even to Vogt, she completely did a 180 afterwards.

Do you realize you just did a 180?

 

[Grinder]

The father of forensic criminology, French criminologist Dr Edmond Locard said, ‘That a criminal will always carry away with him some trace from the scene of his crime, and leave some of his presence behind’.

It's my belief perp B was the "brains" behind the clean-up. Perp A was just too dumb, or arrogant, to care about a "speckle" of blood. Certainly put perp B "in it", by failing to remove the incriminating bathmat.

Amanda saw the tiny spots before the PP arrived. She immediately pointed them out. Why didn't she just take the 10 seconds to use a piece of tissue to wipe them away?

 

[Vixen]

Along with your follow-up, I would like to stay focused on my question to Vixen, who claimed that several judges believed Amanda wielded the knife.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=10678207&postcount=213

So far on this page we have learned that Stefanoni and Comodi both believed it, and we know Mignini believed it, but none of them is a judge. I would like to know specifically whether any judges other than Nencini openly stated they believed Amanda wielded the knife. Since Vixen made the claim, Vixen should provide citations.

We can surmise perp C (Rudy) forcibly restrained Mez by holding her hands behind her back, as evidenced by bruising to Mez forearms and elbows, and perp C's DNA on Mez' sweatshirt cuffs. Someone pulled out huge chunks of Mez' hair.

Bruises around Mez' lower cheek and jaw line had bruises consistent with a perp with female sized hands. From facial swelling, she was no doubt punched in the face.

There were 43 bruises and nicks, in addition to the 4 neck stabs crossing over on her left and right side of neck, approached from opposing directions and with different knives, so we can infer perp A and B wielded one each, unless perp C had six arms, like some latter day Vishnu or Shiva (?) as he was sexually assaulting Mez at the same time.

The lady's size footprint in blood indicates at least one perp was female.

One perp, C (Rudy) left African hair, one perp left chestnut hair, and one left fair hair.

As DNA, footprint, cellphone, location, confession, circumstances (lack of alibi) and behaviour; together with the fact of Amanda's DNA on the handle of the murder weapon and Mez DNA on the blade, prosecutors were able to build a case Amanda was in their view the Svengali figure who wielded the fatal blow, possibly to silence Mez' scream, which by her own account she witnessed, with perps C and B as the spineless low life characters in her thrall.

Matteini and Micheli didn't spell it out, but implied Rudy was an accessory, rather than the main killer. Matteini remanded both Amanda and Raf in custody, as being highly dangerous.

 

[Vixen]

Amanda saw the tiny spots before the PP arrived. She immediately pointed them out. Why didn't she just take the 10 seconds to use a piece of tissue to wipe them away?

As I said, too dumb and arrogant. She bragged of scratching it with her nail, so perhaps couldn't resist leaving a calling card, if you like.

 

[acbytesla]

There is an established link between prostitution and violence. It simply isn't safe for a young person to sleep with random strangers, usually older men, many of whom are predators and ply their young prey with drugs and alcohol.

Joanne, like Amanda, was described by witnesses, including police, as being in a state of euphoria after the murder, and even flirted with the police ("Ta-da!" shimmied Amanda).

Joanne posed the body of her victim, Kevin Lee, to make it look like rape. Mez' body had been similarly posed.

Being promiscuous has NOTHING to do with prostitution. And while sleeping with random people offers health issues such as STDs, it is NOT relevant or provide a meaningful correlation to violence.

This bizarre desire to somehow draw a corollary between Joanna Dennehy demonstrates a lack of understanding about both people. In fact, the descriptions about Amanda and Joanna were in fact DRAMATICALLY diffrrent. But hey why ruin your macabre horror novel?

 

[Kauffer]

The father of forensic criminology, French criminologist Dr Edmond Locard said, ‘That a criminal will always carry away with him some trace from the scene of his crime, and leave some of his presence behind’.

It's my belief perp B was the "brains" behind the clean-up. Perp A was just too dumb, or arrogant, to care about a "speckle" of blood. Certainly put perp B "in it", by failing to remove the incriminating bathmat.

Each post you make ascends new peaks of ignorance. The Locard Exchange principle does say these two things - that a perpetrator will leave evidence of him or herself at the crime scene AND take evidence from the crime scene away. What this means is that we would in this case expect to see, if Amanda was a participant in the murder, some physical evidence of her presence in Kercher's room - there was nothing. We would expect to see blood evidence on her clothes - there was none. And we would also expect to see blood evidence at Raffaele's apartment or in his car. Yet, there is nothing.

 

[Kauffer]

As I said, too dumb and arrogant. She bragged of scratching it with her nail, so perhaps couldn't resist leaving a calling card, if you like.

Why on earth would she do that?

You are clear now aren't you that this sample cannot be dated?

 

[Strozzi]

As a simple language school, any homework was optional, not accredited as course work towards a module.

Your explanation above to explain that homework was optional is your attempt to shift attention from your earlier statement that Amanda did not have homework, which was itself an effort to depreciate her. Amanda did homework. She turned it in.

 

[Vixen]

Why on earth would she do that?

You are clear now aren't you that this sample cannot be dated?

Kauffer, you remind me of a

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/Jagdterrier.jpg

You will not let anything go.

Amanda confirmed to Mignini the blood had not been there the day before.