Miracle of the Shroud II: The Second Coming

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Jessica Christ!


Fun fact: The name Jessica was invented by William Shakespeare; no written record of the name with that spelling appears earlier than The Merchant of Venice.

So, now both the shroud and the name Jessica were ginned up to look ancient sometime in the middle ages.
 
Good morning, Mr. Savage.

Among the things you are missing is that "peer-reviewed" does not mean "correct", but "adhering to minimal standards such that it is at least worth publishing".

At any rate, let's look at the clams, above.

1. X-ray fluorescence can,in fact, detect the presence of iron. However, iron is not blood, nor is blood the only substance that contains iron. In fact, cloths stained with blood, clay, and rust all show positive x-ray fluorescence for the presence of iron.

In other words, test for iron detects iron.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ectrometry/links/0912f5084243d04b3e000000.pdf

Strike one.

2. The "indicative spectra" obtained by microspectrophotometry are wavelengths of particular colours indicative of particular elements and compunds. Do you happen to knw which "indicative spectra" were detected using microspectrophotometry? At best, microspectrophotometry could indicate that there were chemicals not inconsistent with blood; the test does not detect blood itself. (See iron, above.)

Strike two.

3. Porphyirin fluorescence indicates teh presence of porphyrin. As was pointed out to you very recently, porphyrin =/= blood. In fact, as was poiinted out to you recently, most organic pigments contain porphyrins. Did you read Bright Earth yet? Until the advent of anyline dyes (~1830 CE), nearly all red and red-brown pigments consisted of porphyrins (cinnabar, and Iron(III) oxide being noteable exceptions).

Strike three.

4. Hydrazine sulfate (not hydrazine) can be used to detect the presence of heme compounds, but as above, heme is not blood. There is a hemochromogen test that is definitive for blood (the Takayama test), but it is a destructive test, and cannot be preformed without a fairly substantial sample.

http://guidedocstab.com/2011/04/what-is-hemochromogen-test-takayama-test-in-forensic-science/

Strike four.

5. Cyanmethhemoglobin is a compound formed of methemoglobin (proteinaceous oxidated heme). Cyanmethemoglobin is often used to measure the amount of hemoglobin in a blood sample; however, there the substance tested is known to be blood. Cyanmethhemoglobin will form out of any proteinaceous heme compound.

Strike five.

6. Bilirubin is present in blood, urine, feces...and organic pigments. This has been pointed out to you before.

Strike six.

7. As often as the CIQ has been handled since its production in the mid-12th Century CE (as indicated by 14C dating), it would be astonishing if "protein" were NOT detected; however, protein is not blood.

Strike seven.

8. One wonders what H & A thought to achieve, exposing proteins to proteolytic enzymes. Protease does, in fact, break down proteins ("Enxyme-activated" detergent, anyone? Meat tenderizer?), but this is not limited to the proteins in blood.

Strike eight.

9. Another bilirubin test.

Strike nine.

10. Albumins are, in fact, found in human blood plasma. They are also found in egg white. Guess to what artistic use egg white is put.

Strike ten.

11. I have pointed out to you the problem with claiming that the "blood" stains on the CIQ show "serum rings" before. As a refresher, any dense pigment in a water-based vehicle will show retraction rings, if it is dropped (as opposded to brushed, or daubed) on an absorptive surface.

Strike eleven.

12. Do you happen to know what "test" was used to "determine" that the "blood" was of "primate origin"? The usual antibody tests to determine whether blood is human, or animal, require samples significantly less degraded that the stains on the CIQ (should those stains turn out to be actual blood).

Ball one.

13. "Forensic judgement" just means that H & A decided that the "wound" representations looked "real enough" for their tastes. It sounds all science-y, but it has no substance.

Strike twelve.

It is, in fact, possible that there is detectable human blood on the CIQ. Even were the presence of such demonstrated beyond a shadow of a doubt, it would be blood on a 780-year-old artifact.

Have you provided the sources by which you claim the "blood" on the CIQ was serotyped, and genotyped? I would still be interested to read those.

I nominated this.

I'm a non-scientist, so need the experts here to translate the science stuff into English.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but this clearly looks like a devastating refutation...
 
For the sake of accuracy, I should note that it is possible to find silicon and aluminum in normal blood using special techniques, but even then only as very trace elements which can be difficult to find even in fresh blood, let alone a dried thousands of years old. Their presence in pigments is far more easily detected than in blood.
 
I find it rather fitting that this has devolved into a discussion of "It's a Mad Mad Mad Mad World." It is, after all, a mad mad mad mad thread.
 

For contributing my self to wikipedia, mainly in French, I can tell you that this kind of articles are within the most awful you can find on WP. In particular in English where it seems almost impossible to keep them free from recurring "Point of View" pushing by religious zealots and to make them look neutral.

But since you are evoking this kind of artefacts I wonder why you did not include the Manoppello image (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manoppello_Image ), the tunic of Argenteuil (https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tunique_d'Argenteuil - available in French only, sorry for this) and/or the miracle of Lanciano? After all there is enough litterature claiming that scientific researches made on samples of all these artefacts came to the conclusion that the blood was in all cases of AB type.

Even better, Gerard Lucotte, a French who holds a doctorate in genetics and another one in sciences, is convinced he has indentified Jesus' DNA on a sample taken from the tunic. And the fact that C14 testing has dated the tunic between 530 and 650 BCE has not changed his mind: http://www.lepoint.fr/actualites-societe/2007-01-17/jesus-la-bataille-de-l-adn/920/0/23736 (sorry, in French again)

The same Lucotte has also published some papers on the shroud, but I am not sure he is in his field of expertise and I wonder where he got his samples: http://www.academicjournals.org/journal/SRE/article-abstract/309700429271
 
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- I have lots of digging to do...
This I don't understand. This thread was started in December, 2011 and has well over 11,000 posts. If there is "lots" of evidence to support your claims, why do you, after all these years and a gazzilion posts, have "lots of digging" to do? Really, Jabba, as a lurker who finds good argumentation quite exciting, what could you possibly dig up now that has significant probative value that was not available years ago and that actually responds to the evidence and argumentation that has already been put forth?
 
This I don't understand. This thread was started in December, 2011 and has well over 11,000 posts. If there is "lots" of evidence to support your claims, why do you, after all these years and a gazzilion posts, have "lots of digging" to do? Really, Jabba, as a lurker who finds good argumentation quite exciting, what could you possibly dig up now that has significant probative value that was not available years ago and that actually responds to the evidence and argumentation that has already been put forth?

And don't forget that Jabba claims to put in about 3 hours a day on this. I honestly don't know what he is doing during that time if he doesn't already have an in depth knowledge of the topic and immediate answers to the concerns and questions raised, almost all of which came up during the first few weeks of the thread.
 
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